MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Might i suggest you wind in the hyperbole when trying to make a point, and add some stats instead of relying on your own experiences (and that of some friends). It is easier to make a convincing and robust case that way
Well said!
And interestingly, I've just found an index of international rich/poor gaps which had Denmark top of the field, with an astonishing 82% of the population who are classed as "thriving" (the other categories being "struggling" and "suffering"). Seems like those Danes are doing okay despite the murderous taxes they all seem to be so keen to get away from.
If you look at any indices re social equality, quality of life, happiness etc., the countries which top those tables tend to be those with higher taxation. Which says to me that, at a very fundamental level, what makes people generally content with their lives is not adding an extra 2" to the size of their plasma telly every 12 months, or having a big daft car to wrap around a lamp post, moreso living in a fair and equal society with decent civic services. And even little things, which might stupid at first, but matter, like provision of plentiful, safe cycling lanes. That "you're only happy when you've got bags of disposable income" talk is specious propaganda.
TandemJeremy - Member
Perhpas but I believe it is much less so than the UK
Almost identical actually....
[url= http://www.oecd.org/document/40/0,3746,en_21571361_44315115_49166760_1_1_1_1,00.html ]OECD Rich/Poor stats[/url]
You're not rich NZCol, not Aston 77 rich - if I've read correctly you pay your tax in the country you earn it which also happens to be the country you are resident in. I doubt that's true of the Aston owners who have no doubt sorted out their tax affairs so they pay a mere token in some tax haven. I also suspect the only work Aston 77 owners do is instructing the people who manage their money.
interesting hilldodger
@ernie - I shop at Tesco
@stevewhyte - Oxfam is one of the charities I support
Look let's cut to the chase, the issue here is some of you can't stand the fact that some people have more money than you. It makes you furious and dents your fragile ego. The chip on your shoulder weighs more each day, knowing that there are people out there who are so loaded they can buy cars for a million pounds and not bat an eyelid.
You call these people names, question their morals, infer that they have small genitalia - because it makes you feel better about the way things turned out for you. Maybe you were unlucky, maybe you should have worked harder, who knows. Some people are richer than you. It is what it is so your impotent rage is just a waste of energy.
Think about and appreciate the privileges you are lucky to enjoy rather than envy those who have "more" than you.
Stop being a patronising ****heed RJ, at least for 10mins and give us peace.
yes, particularly how some of the countries usually thought of as "better than us" in respect of wealth equality (NZ, Finland, Sweden, Germany) seem to be the ones with the most widening gap from '85 - '08.
:EDIT: reply to TJ's post
They still are less unequal and actually NZ is still a chunk better than the UK
Random jeremy - no - I cannot stand the fact that the wealth of this country is so unevenly shared so that we have people in poverty while a tiny elite hoover up so much of the wealth - usually because of the power they hold not for what they do.
Eveyone is impoverished by this - people even the rich are happier in a more equal country.
Why is it right we have pensioners struggling to make ends meet while other have riches that can never be spent
The Gini coefficient, a standard measure of income inequality that ranges from 0 (when everybody has identical incomes) to 1 (when all income goes to only one person), stood at an average of 0.29 in OECD countries in the mid-1980s.
By the late 2000s, however, it had increased by almost 10% to 0.316. Significantly, it rose in 17 of the 22 OECD countries for which long-term data series are available , climbing by more than 4 percentage points in Finland, Germany, Israel, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Sweden, and the United States.
Income inequality followed different patterns across the OECD countries over time. It first started to increase in the late 1970s and early 1980s in some English-speaking countries, notably the United Kingdom and the United States, but also in Israel.
From the late 1980s, the increase in income inequality became more widespread. The latest trends in the 2000s showed a widening gap between rich and poor not only in some of the already highinequality countries like Israel and the United States, but also – for the first time – in traditionally low-inequality countries, such as Germany, Denmark, and Sweden (and other Nordic countries), where inequality grew more than anywhere else in the 2000s.
At the same time, Chile, Mexico, Greece, Turkey, and Hungary reduced income inequality considerably – often from very high levels. There are thus tentative signs of a possible convergence of inequality levels towards a common and higher average level across OECD countries
[url= http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/40/12/49499779.pdf ]full report here[/url]
actually NZ is still a chunk better than the UK
If you look at the data for 2008, NZ has a Gini of 0.33 against UK 0.34 so not that big a chunk....
Stop being a patronising ****heed RJ, at least for 10mins and give us peace.
Obviously hit a nerve, mission accomplished. It's a shame you're not capable of a more measured, coherent response but I guess you play the hand you're dealt 😀
You call these people names, question their morals, infer that they have small genitalia
Not knowing ronjeremy, would I be correct in thinking that he's made his money by doing things of questionable morality with generously proportioned genitalia?
edit:
Why is it right we have pensioners struggling to make ends meet while other have riches that can never be spent
So why is the dude who's trying to spend, and then trash, his vast wealth getting it in the neck?
[i]- I cannot stand the fact that the wealth of this country is so unevenly shared [/i]
what about the wealth that is earned TJ? me and gf have plans, we are studying, saving, working our butts off in fact.
emsz - its fine if yo earn it and its a reasonable amount. the fact that richest 1% of the country have 21% of the wealth is wrong while the poorest 50% of the country have 7% of the wealth
emsz - its fine if yo earn it and its a reasonable amount.
TJ, who are you to determine what is a reasonable amount?
How many of the poorest 50% don't have access to basic necessities or don't have the opportunity to work their way out of poverty, legally?
Hardly real poverty, is it? Real poverty is quite disturbing to see, and we don't suffer from that in the UK.
define reasonable? 😆
Yes, strive to be mediocre.
I'm not sure this thread went in quite the direction the OP hoped
emsz - lets say 5 times average earnings? thats nearly £150 000 pa. that would be enough for me. Riches I will never have.
lets say 5 times average earnings? thats nearly £150 000 pa. that would be enough for me. Riches I will never have.
Those are the breaks, don't like it? Do something about it (other than threadshit incessantly on here about it)
Rejoice, citizens! Tractor production is at an all time high!
A bicycle for all worthy party members!*
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*Unworthy party members will be joining a short guided walking tour in the gulag.
CaptainFlashheart - MemberRejoice, citizens! Tractor production is at an all time high!
It's been a good while since you've done the hilarious "tractor production" joke Flashheart.
So it's nice to see it make a welcomed return on this thread. Thank you 🙂
(It's also because I secretly really want a Flying Pigeon! I reckon they look awesome! 🙂 )
emsz - lets say 5 times average earnings? thats nearly £150 000 pa. that would be enough for me. Riches I will never have.
..if you spend your life arguing on internet forums. Why don't you do something more constructive with your time?
No real poverty in the UK? Pull the other one.
Now try to get rapid health treatment for a long list of ills if you can't afford to go private. Now try to go to university if your parents can't hand over large sums of money. Now go work in an inner city school and see how many of the kids are poorly nourished, poorly clothed and possibly on the game to bring in some cash.
Use any definition of poverty you like and you'll find real poverty in the UK.
Use any definition of poverty you like and you'll find real poverty in the UK.
The kind of poverty you find in areas of Africa or the Asian Sub-continent? Babies and kids with bones broken by the parents so they get more money on the streets?
Now try to get rapid health treatment for a long list of ills if you can't afford to go private. Now try to go to university if your parents can't hand over large sums of money. Now go work in an inner city school and see how many of the kids are poorly nourished, poorly clothed and possibly on the game to bring in some cash.
Hardly real poverty, is it?
Having a CRT instead of a plasma might register as being impoverished though. 🙄
Having a CRT instead of a plasma might register as being impoverished though.
Thats a pretty ignorant quote.
Thats not a serious quote, surely just a bit of daily mailism!
Thats a pretty ignorant quote.
Is it? Even whwn you take the emoticon into consideration. Have you read what edukator misguidedly wrote with regard to perceived and real poverty?
You're right, I was taking the p¡ss out of edukator and wasn't being serious, whether your quoting was serious or not, I don't know.
Use any definition of poverty you like and you'll find real poverty in the UK.
Bad
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But there's far worse
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And then there's these-probably defined as poor and underprivilieged
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I suppose you've never heard of a case in which a poor job seeker eventually cracks and seriously injures or kills a family member, or simply kills the rest of the family then commits suicide, Don. Dedt and financial difficulties are a cause of domestic violence. Do some Googling because it's not only Africans that break their childrens' bones.
Different motives entirely for doing the damage.
The poor job seeker gets 70 quid off the state, free schooling, free health care including mental health care, the option of going to college or university and the possibility of getting a job. To say otherwise is doing a dis-service to those that have achieved.
To even try and say the situation are similar is quite ridiculous and I feel that your just looking for an argument.
The levels of poverty in the UK are nowhere near real poverty.
The levels of poverty in the UK are nowhere near real poverty.
and what..?
You want masses of kids drinking dirty water and dying of preventable diseases before you think it's actually a problem?
You want masses of kids drinking dirty water and dying of preventable diseases before you think it's actually a problem?
Why yes, you really are smart. That's exactly what I said, isn't it? 🙄
To say otherwise is doing a dis-service to those that have achieved.
How so?
So the ones that achieved were better looking, had higher IQ or better social skills, or all three. There's a poverty trap in the UK and it was pretty clear to me that only the brightest, best looking and socially skilled of my pupils would ever escape it.
Why yes, you really are smart. That's exactly what I said, isn't it?
I didn't say it was what you said, I was asking what the point of your argument is.
I was asking what the point of [s]your argument is.[/s] six pages of this relentless drivel on a (relatively insignificant) UK bike forum is. I mean, we could have actually done something worthwhile with all that effort, but instead, I and many others spent a whole weekend arguing on the aforementioned bike forum. ALL EFFING WEEKEND. Woo, yay! Go me!
FTFY.
FFS.
some of the arrogance in this thread make me feel ashamed.
don simon, quite clearly there's poverty in the uk, just because you do not choose to acknowledge it doesn't mean it;s not here.
because there's worse poverty elsewhere in the world the poverty here is in someway less valid.
i'lll leavee with this quote
"poverty can be seen as a sort of extreme and we have every right to overcome this and assure our physical comfort, On the other hand, too much luxery, pursuing excessive wealth is another extreme. Our ultimate aim in seeking more wealth is a sense of satisaction, of happiness. But the very basis of seeking more is a feeling of not having enough, a feeling of discontentment".
There's a poverty trap in the UK and it was pretty clear to me that only the brightest, best looking and socially skilled of my pupils would ever escape it.
I'd take a long hard look at the educators then. 😉
How many of the poorest 50% don't have access to basic necessities or don't have the opportunity to work their way out of poverty, legally?
Hardly real poverty, is it? Real poverty is quite disturbing to see, and we don't suffer from that in the UK.
My original posting that's got your knickers in a twist. There is a state system in the UK that exists to provide basic services for all. How the resources are used is nothing I can control, but it is there. These people are not wealthy but they certainly aren't impoverished to the levels of Africa or the Asian-subcontinent. They can work their way through the education system, others don't have a pot to p¡ss in, literally.
I didn't say it was what you said, I was asking what the point of your argument is.
It's not hard to work out, is it?
don simon - MemberDifferent motives entirely for doing the damage.
The poor job seeker gets 70 quid off the state,
No they don't.
Poverty exists in the UK both absolute and relative.
Absolute poverty refers to a set standard which is the same in all countries and which does not change over time. An income-related example would be living on less than $X per day.Relative poverty refers to a standard which is defined in terms of the society in which an individual lives and which therefore differs between countries and over time. An income-related example would be living on less than X% of average UK income.
Absolute poverty and relative poverty are both valid concepts. The concept of absolute poverty is that there are minimum standards below which no one anywhere in the world should ever fall. The concept of relative poverty is that, in a rich country such as the UK, there are higher minimum standards below which no one should fall, and that these standards should rise if and as the country becomes richer.
http://www.poverty.org.uk/summary/social%20exclusion.shtml
Want some data on it?
http://www.jrf.org.uk/publications/monitoring-poverty-2011?gclid=CNCry76BuLAC****fAodxF8m-A
I was asking what the point of your argument is. six pages of this relentless drivel on a (relatively insignificant) UK bike forum is. I mean, we could have actually done something worthwhile with all that effort, but instead, I and many others spent a whole weekend arguing on the aforementioned bike forum. ALL EFFING WEEKEND. Woo, yay! Go me!FTFY.
FFS.
Well if it's such a sad thing to do, why the f*** are you sitting on here complaining about it??? Surely being such an interesting bloke, you should be out leading your amazingly interesting life???
No they don't.
What is the current JSA then?
There is no such thing as real poverty, for every example you can find no doubt there is always someon worse off.
The point is poverty has a tangable definition, and according to that thee are significant (growing) numbers who now live below that level.
I just find it hard sometimes justifiying what i buy (and i am not rich by any definition) let alone someone who spends £250k on a car and then drives past people who canot afford decent food or struggle to heat their homes.
Everyone who is rich has had very lucky breaks in one form or other, they would do well to remember that when they are patting themselves on their back and telling their mates how clever they are. No doubt plenty give something back but i struggle to see how people on here can argue for such a wide distribution of income. It so clear that the wider the poverty gap the worse off the country.
Zimbo, no chance. I'm watching and chuckling at the Great STW Argue-a-Thon, drinking beer and digesting a rather nice meal that I had at my local pub earlier. 🙂
Cripes. Remind me not to post up here when I crash my spaceship.
I'll leave you chaps get on with this lot, I'm starving and the pizza's just popped out of the oven.
Under 25 £56.25
Over 25 £71.00
Couples, civil partnerships £111.45
And remember if you are under 35 you will be forced to flatshare.
The poor job seeker gets 70 quid off the state,
So this was correct then.
Edit:
And remember if you are under 35 you will be forced to flatshare.
But not live in a sewer...
I'm starving
Relatively starving, I presume? You first world whinger. 😀
Realtively starving, I presume?
You're not as stupid as you look then. 😉
So this was correct then.
No
Only if you are over 25 and single.
And remember if you are under 35 you will be forced to flatshare.
Not quite TJ ,doesn't apply to social housing
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/DG_192415.
Many working people in most cities in the UK have to share privately rented places so no real hardship and I don't know anyone in full time work who can afford £250 a week in rent.
"From 1 April 2011 the rates for Local Housing Allowance will be reduced across the country:
Limits on payments
A limit will be introduced so that Local Housing Allowance does not exceed:
£250 a week for a one bedroom property (including shared accommodation)
£290 a week for a two bedroom property
£340 a week for a three bedroom property
£400 a week for a four bedroom property
The maximum rate of Housing Benefit will be limited to the rate for a four bedroom property."
Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
I just find it hard sometimes justifiying what i buy (and i am not rich by any definition) let alone someone who spends £250k on a car and then drives past people who canot afford decent food or struggle to heat their homes.
I spent more than £250k on a car once and didn't feel the need to justify it to anyone. About £40k of that was VAT, not to mention the fact that I paid 40% tax on the money I earned to afford the car in the first place. Them's the breaks.
Everyone who is rich has had very lucky breaks in one form or other, they would do well to remember that when they are patting themselves on their back and telling their mates how clever they are.
Yes luck is involved, but what is more prevalent is a strong work ethic and a willingness to take risks. Sometimes it works out ok, sometimes it doesn't. I've lived in mansions and tents and the back of a transit van. Some people choose to bleat about inequality like a ****ing pussy on a bike forum instead of growing a pair of balls (bollocks?) though....
Edit I'm currently poor, having lost a load of money in a fund that didn't mature as intended due to the financial crises of the last few years, so that should make you feel a bit better 🙄
Only if you are over 25 and single.
You hadn't made it clear that you were only talking about under 25s and excluding everyone else. You have my sincerest apologies.
On the same level I can safely say that this is compete and utter rubbish then.
No they don't.
Because by your own admission, some clearly do. 😀
Now i know RJ is 12 and needs to go to bed. School in the morning RJ, night night dont let the bed bugs bite.
@stevewhyte You're (apparently) a teacher with the comprehension skills of a retard and one hell of a chip on your shoulder; I'm glad you won't be teaching my children, you're a disgrace.
They still are less unequal and actually NZ is still a chunk better than the UK
Fascinating, have you lived here long ? As noted in the Gini measurement it is very close to the UK. The [b]perception[/b] of what it is like must be very easy from 12,000kms away. Trust me in a country of 4m people with an ageing population, a $30b earthqauke recovery operation and a pretty fukked economy no amount of Hobbit movies, sheep or wine will prop up this country. As a result the gulf is widening. Housing affordability is right up there with the worst of them. Social service budgets cannot sustain the draw on them and our infrastructure spend is spiralling. However you'd know all that already.
The perception of what it is like must be very easy from 12,000kms away.
You're not very clear on how this works, are you? 😆
Sleep tight RJ, mummy will come and tuck you in soon. Dont let those bad boys at school touch you in those places again, its not right.
If only you lot had worked harder, maybe you could have nice cars too.
<runs away making zoidberg noise>
stevewhyte - Member
weird stuff about touching kids
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I'll leave you chaps get on with this lot, I'm starving and the pizza's just popped out of the oven.
your pizza removes itself from the oven [i]AUTOMATICALLY??![/i]
You rich git, I have to remove mine myself...oh the shame