I there a religious aspect to social inequality and wealth redistribution?
Those bloody Catholics...they're as bad as the Muslims. Protestants? Don't get me started on them.
Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, New Zealand.
hehehe, grass is always much greener eh! 😉
Don't wish to piss on your chips, but at least 2 of those countries (Sweden and Denmark) both have aging populations, are taxed to high heavens, have very high unemployment rates (and a lot of people who really can't be bothered to work), and are basically a nightmare for anyone who really wants to get off their arse and work hard and earn a decent living. I have friends that live in both of these countries (Denmark being even worse than Sweden seemingly, half the work force of Copenhagen seem to live in Malmo and commute cross border through the tunnel each day as Sweden is actually cheaper to live in!), and they get paid lots of money, but actually see very little of it. I had 2 telephone interviews a few years back for a job in Denmark, the starting salary would have been 70,000 Euro's, roughly £65k at the time. Wow I thought, it was more than twice as much as I was earning here at the time. But then I looked into Danish tax laws, and cost of living there, and spoke to friends etc. Turns out even though I would have been earning more than twice as much, after tax and paying all my bills etc (rent and cost of living, running a car etc.) I would have less spare cash each month than on my much lower salary in the UK! These "more desirable" (to who, the retired and the jobless maybe, not anyone who actually works hard!) countries are rapidly losing their skilled workforces to countries that don't penalise hard work quite so much, and they're rapidly trying to import foreigners with skills they are missing that don't realise quite how expensive it is to live there!!! Hey ho...
Oh, you poor defeatist...
I made a glib comment in reaction to your pandering about life being much better in other countries. I have my moments of doubt, but I don't really think it is shit. I will defend my right to moan royally when I don't agree with something that any govt in this country does, but I think on the whole, for the amount of taxes we actually pay, we actually get better VFM than for just about any other country in the world I can think of. Sure, Sweden, Denmark and others have better public services, but they're not twice as good, and they cost more than twice as much!
Is there a religious aspect to social inequality and wealth redistribution?
This thread could really get motoring then ..
Lets keep religion and politics separate eh... Gives us one more thing to argue about! 😉
hey, did anyone hear about the rare (1 of 77) Aston that was crashed? Shame.....
😆
It's funny, as much as I will gladly defend anyone's right to buy one of those, I'm really not a fan of that car at all. I love Aston Martin in general, and have a good friend who works there and says they're a great company to work for, but that car... It's neither a technical fest, or a game changer. It looks like the bastard child of Zagato taking a current DBS and a TVR Speed 12, then doing his own crazy shit to it. It's butch for the sake of being butch, like most late model TVR's were. But TVR's could get away with being vulgar cos they were from Blackpool, and they were relatively cheap and cheerful. This is an Aston, it should ooze class and/or be a technical tour de force.
What it is is a money making exercise for Aston. Quite simply they knew there would be 77 super rich muppets that would part with a huge amount of cash if they lashed something together that was a bit of an animal, and faster than any Aston that has gone before. I doubt the development costs were that high for it, after all they're all handbuilt so no real expensive machines needed buying. It's loosely a parts bin special, with not much actually being totally bespoke.
That one has been totalled, I find neither upsetting nor a shame. To see a totalled McLaren F1, now that is heart wrenching. That car was a total game changer in so many ways, a complete technical tour de force, designed not to make a few quid on the quick but basically out of Ron Dennis, Peter Stevens and Gordon Murray's desire to make the ultimate road car bar none. The Veyron is a technical masterpiece, but it achieves its figures through brute force. The F1 is, was, and always will be the ultimate machine.
Anyone worked out what that car represents in terms of years of minimum wage? It's a 132 years of the SMIC. Now in terms of average house prices? Seven or eight times maybe. Now consider how much someone buying an average house will pay in tax in terms of their income and wealth - a lot. Now consider what the Aston buyer will pay in tax in terms of their income and wealth - next to nothing.
Aston Martin/Ferrari etc, say an average of £150,000, ie 10 times the price of an ex-demo Skoda estate(not that I am stereotyping stw'ers) Orange 5se £4600 (again no stw stereotype) 14 times the price of Carrera vengeance. Supercar = better value for money.
So buying a £150k car means
£25k in VAT
Sounds like a reasonable start in tax terms, reckon they need to sell a few more.
Waving red flags at someone who has chosen to spend THEIR money on a flash car is easy.
So after we have banned anything more extravagant than mondeo (but only if you have 2 kids) single people are only allowed on the bus. Whats next??
29's have 3" more wheel so they can go right now stinks of affluence that does.
Maybe ration people to 3 posts a day....
a friend of mine bought one of these:
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although it's vulgar to discuss money, i shall say that they're not cheap.
It's a lovely thing though.
a £1Million car is more or less the same thing, AND you can use it as a form of transport.
it's almost a bargain.
Seems like a cooperative, mutually beneficial Utopian dream
And that's just it, it's a dream. Whenever I pop into town I see gated off driveways and even people illegaly putting bollards or other junk to protect their on street parking spaces, there are cars so badly parked that they take up two spaces and other such acts of selfishness.
I have to ask myself "Why should I open my land up to the public?"
Sad, isn't it?
......without clean running water or access to basic drugs.
I'm fairly sure there aren't many in this country.
And claiming that because there are people in the world without clean running water or access to basic drugs, this somehow fully justifies someone spending £1.4 million on a car, is probably the worse argument ever.
The justification is that some people have more money than others, I just took an extreme after the rather pointless argument first offered that someone shouldn't be allowed to have lots of money and be able to spend it on expensive cars when someone else can't afford a camera.
Meanwhile, back on topic:
There is another multiple buyer for the Aston Martin One-77. This buyer asked for two: one to drive and one to hang on the wall as a piece of art.
What rawlplugs would you need to hang one on a wall?
and the rest of that paragraph...Don't wish to piss on your chips
You'd have a hard job pissing on anyone's chips with that one-topic argument. Seems you think the only thing important in life is how much cash you have in the bank. Not clean, safe streets, not public health, not education, not equality, etc. etc. etc.
Oh, you poor defeatist.
Wunundred 😀
The justification is that some people have more money than others
Well I don't think that's the issue here - do you ?
The issue here is "how much more", and what it's spent on. Many believe that spending £1.4 million on a car to get them from A to B is obscene. I agree, but I can see that you don't.
I do think it is obscene but it's their money and they clearly have lots of it. Who are you or I to question what an individual spends the money they have earned on something that will (normally, assuming they don't bin it) be an investment.
Many people think spending £5k on a bike is obscene too, but lots on here would think it quite acceptable.
I really don't see why people get so wound up about an expensive car. It's all relative.
How about venting your frustration on something a little more worthy of an argument.
This little beauty costs £16.8 M and only gets used once, if at all! Even the replacement R+D costs are nearly as much as the Aston....... [b]EVERY DAY[/b]!
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Who are you or I to question what an individual spends the money they have earned ...........
Well I think I am perfectly entitled to have an opinion on the issue of whether some individuals have more than their fair share of society's wealth.
And if one individual has £1.4 million to spunk on a car to get them from A to be B, then it certainly suggests to me that they have more than their fair share of society's limited wealth.
It is an indisputable fact that one of the motivating factors behind owning an ostentatious vehicle in the £1.4 million price bracket, is to shamelessly flaunt your obscene level of wealth and invite others to be impressed. They are unquestioningly asking to be judged. Which is precisely what I do, although obviously not in the manner which they would prefer.
mboy - MemberDon't wish to piss on your chips, but at least 2 of those countries (Sweden and Denmark) both have aging populations, are taxed to high heavens, have very high unemployment rates (and a lot of people who really can't be bothered to work), and are basically a nightmare for anyone who really wants to get off their arse and work hard and earn a decent living.
I do with to pish on your chips, because the unemployment rate of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland an New Zealand are lower than the UK. And all those 'problems' you highlight, are the reason why income inequality is less than the UK. I think you may have missed the point.
Some interesting thoughts on the psychology of the wealthy there ernie.
Did it occur to you that it is an 'indisputable fact' that there are wealthy people who just love cars and the fact that they can afford them is just a happy coincidence? Examples are Nick Mason, Jodie Kidd and Jay Leno. I also know someone who makes a point of only taking his cars (they range from Ferrari's to Lamborghini) out onto quiet roads to avoid the attention you claim he craves.
Of course there are those who undoubtedly fit into your assessment but as for
I would be very surprised if anyone driving a car costing that much would give a monkeys chuff whether you judged them or not!They are unquestioningly asking to be judged.
So Ernie, have you got more than your fair share of the world's wealth? Do you think there may be people (had they access to electricity, never mind computers) who think that you have some of their share of wealth? Do you share that wealth equitably?
And if one individual has £1.4 million to spunk on a car to get them from A to be B, then it certainly suggests to me that they have more than their fair share of society's limited wealth.
Wealth is not a finite resource. 🙄
Anyway, supercars are awesome and if you disagree it's because you're a jealous bitter little man 😉
I genuinely LOL at the suggestion that those who drive around in £1.4 million cars aren't flaunting their wealth and trying to impress people ! Bless you Woody, that's so quaint 😀
I do with to pish on your chips, because the unemployment rate of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland an New Zealand are lower than the UK. And all those 'problems' you highlight, are the reason why income inequality is less than the UK. I think you may have missed the point.
OK, having just checked todays unemplyment rates, because of the current unemployment farce we have in the UK you are actually right. But in the case of Denmark, Sweden and Finland, only just... These 3 countries have consistently high unemployment problems, the UK is experiencing a fairly extreme peak right now, but is usually lower. New Zealand isn't far off either, though to be fair Norway does seem to have very low unemployment.
The "problems" I highlighted, as you put it, are BIG problems... What the hell do you do when all your skilled workforce is leaving the country to work elsewhere because they are taxed to high heaven in their home country, and don't see the benefit of this? I think there are a lot of people in this world that earn decent money that don't mind paying their taxes if they can actually see what benefit it is giving society. There will always be greedy idiots who will do whatever they can to avoid paying tax of course, but I don't think the problem is as rife as many left wing bigots on here would have you believe.
So Ernie, have you got more than your fair share of the world's wealth? Do you think there may be people (had they access to electricity, never mind computers) who think that you have some of their share of wealth? Do you share that wealth equitably?
😆
Hehehe. THIS is my problem with socialism (and the left wing bigots)... All too happy to bang on about sharing the wealth, making society better for everyone, and "wouldn't it be better if everyone had the same" etc... But they'll never actively do anything about it themselves, and just about all of them that I meet or know drive fairly decent cars, live in nice houses, with good jobs etc. Try living on the breadline for a bit you bigots, trust me!
Hehehe. THIS is my problem with socialism (and the left wing bigots)... All too happy to bang on about sharing the wealth, making society better for everyone, and "wouldn't it be better if everyone had the same" etc... But they'll never actively do anything about it themselves, and just about all of them that I meet or know drive fairly decent cars, live in nice houses, with good jobs etc. Try living on the breadline for a bit you bigots, trust me!
Ooh socialists with good jobs. What a bunch of b8st8rds! You genuinely do not have a good, reasoned argument in you, do you?
Bless you Woody, that's so quaint
You genuinely do not have a good, reasoned argument in you, do you?
Hilarious but I think that both mboy and myself have produced a reasoned argument against the sweeping generalisations that you have produced. 🙄
You genuinely do not have a good, reasoned argument in you, do you?
Is perhaps the most contradictory thing that has been posted on this forum so far. You've just stood up, said a few words to try to belittle me, then sit back down again.
Far from it, I typed an extensive and reasoned argument in my previous reply. You've replied with what amounts to "I've got nothing else to say, but I'm going to get a jibe in anyway to make me look cool"... WHAT A PRICK!!! 😕
Ooh socialists with good jobs. What a bunch of b8st8rds!
I don't deny anyone a good job if they deserve it, but I do find it rather hypocritical people who live significantly better lifestyles than the majority who are outwardly socialist in their views, but will never ever actually do anything about the problem. Probably the same people moaning about Bono making a load of money recently, questioning if he's going to give it all to charity or not... Well mr. socialist, vote with your wallet, if you've got a good job do something about the problem yourself!!!
ernie_lynch - MemberI genuinely LOL at the suggestion that those who drive around in £1.4 million cars aren't flaunting their wealth and trying to impress people !
What I'd previously read of your output suggested that you aren't thick, until this^^
Most of the super cars are far to big and low to the ground to drive round the country lanes where I live .Luckily I also have a penis so dont need a super car(dont have a spare 1.4 m either but thats not the point)
I genuinely LOL at the suggestion that those who drive around in £1.4 million cars aren't flaunting their wealth and trying to impress people !
Bless you ernie, that's so quaint. so is there an ernie-approved list of things people can spend money on without "flaunting" it. And is shopping in Lidl flaunting poverty to be right on enough to earn your your approval?
Hehehe. THIS is my problem with socialism (and the left wing bigots)... All too happy to bang on about sharing the wealth, making society better for everyone, and "wouldn't it be better if everyone had the same" etc... But they'll never actively do anything about it themselves, and just about all of them that I meet or know drive fairly decent cars, live in nice houses, with good jobs etc. Try living on the breadline for a bit you bigots, trust me!
Laughable and offensive
Myself and many of the people I know actually live to their principles. Both I and MrsTJ have spent or lives in public service doing our best to help those less fortunate. The old, the ill, the disabled.
Both of us are able people and I a sure could have earned more money by other career choices but we have principles and live by them. after 30 years working in our fields both of us still earn below the national average
What the hell do you do when all your skilled workforce is leaving the country to work elsewhere because they are taxed to high heaven in their home country, and don't see the benefit of this?
Is this supposed to refer to the UK? Cos we remain a low tax economy. Or is it Norway? in which case where is the diaspora? Or is it Poland?
Both of us are able people and I a sure could have earned more money by other career choices but we have principles and live by them. after 30 years working in our fields both of us still earn below the national average
Applauds Mother Ter....sorry TJ for his tireless work in a (private?) nursing home. BTW did you manage to sort out a fair rent on that second property of yours? 8)
TJ - if you give back everything but necessities to those less fortunate than you, then I applaud you. That is something few people can do.
MF no I don't do that- the point I was making simply was Mboys accusations of hypocrisy do not hold true. I know many other folk in this position.
TJ- you area a miserable failure as a socialist! you would make Proudon cry with your multiple rental properties and capitalist ideals whilst pretending that somehow you are at one with and work for the people 😀
and does your "having ideals and earning less than the national average" take into account your second income stream the property ownership and rental?
no, thought not, you bourgeois pig 😆
And yet you're happy to deny others the chance to own their own home, instead choosing to be a landlord.
Surely they're compatible? Tony Blair owns several properties, and he's a leftie.
Property is theft! 😈
Tony Blair owns several properties, and he's a leftie.
oh no he isn't!
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How so?
WHAT A PRICK!!!
Yeah okay, fair enough, I apologise for leaving that inflammatory comment there with no explanation.
But, really that "well you vote Labour so why don't you give all your money away" is such a baseless and inane response, which I genuinely haven't heard since I was a schoolboy. As a socialist, I'm looking for a fairer system which reduces social and economic inequalities, and closes off the system of privilege bestowed on certain people just because they happen to be born into a certain set of circumstances. I'll vote for a party that attempts that, and if I end up giving away more of my income in taxation in pursuit of that, then I'm more than happy. Me giving fifty quid of my wages every week to a poorer family down the road won't achieve it.
Secondly, you imply that only middle class, well-off people are socialists. So all the working classes of this country vote Tory then?
And thirdly, I take offence at being called a bigot by someone who writes this about 20m plus nordic inhabitants:
(and a lot of people who really can't be bothered to work), and are basically a nightmare for anyone who really wants to get off their arse and work hard and earn a decent living
Offensive and borderline racist. What a prick indeed.
Oh yes he is. Isn't he?
[url= http://socialistworker.org/2011/10/10/will-tony-blair-ever-go-away ]yep, Blair is a great advert for socialism[/url]
Politics is too confusing for me. 🙂
TandemJeremy - Member
Myself and many of the people I know actually live to their principles. Both I and MrsTJ have spent or lives on public service forums doing our best to help those less fortunate. The old, the ill, the disabled,and the terminally ignorant.Both of us are able people and I a sure could have earned more money by other career choices but we have principles and live by them. after 30 years working in our fields both of us still earn below the national average
reedited for clarity
In all fairness to TJ; he rents his flat out to a young couple for less than he could have got elsewhere (not stalking you TJ,)
randomjeremy - Member
And yet you're happy to deny others the chance to own their own home, instead choosing to be a landlord.POSTED 17 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
As a plasterer I bought and renovated flats in Dundee where I grew up, does owning a couple that I put a lot of hard work into doing up make me less working class? Good; being working class was shite.
Its also a bit by accident we ended up with it - a long and complex story and maybe its just as well as this government is taking our pensions away
