Forum menu
An ambulance technician chose not to respond to a 999 call about a woman having what proved to be a fatal heart attack 800 yards from his depot in Moray because he was on a break.
The Scottish Ambulance Service (SAS) said the emergency in Tomintoul was instead answered by a crew based 21 minutes away in Grantown-on-Spey.
An air ambulance was also scrambled, but 33-year-old Mandy Mathieson died.
The technician has been suspended while an investigation is carried out.
Ms Mathieson's brother, Charles, said his family were shocked by how the emergency was dealt with.
He said: "I have worked in the fire service for 20 years and I can assure you that has never happened in the fire service.
"I just assumed, and the public at large assumed, that for a treble nine call the nearest ambulance will be despatched."
A spokesman for the SAS said the 999 call for a cardiac emergency was received at about midday on 16 October.
[b]He said: "The ambulance technician on duty in Tomintoul was on a rest break and chose not to respond.[/b]
"An ambulance crew was dispatched from Grantown-on-Spey and arrived on scene within 21 minutes, followed by an air ambulance helicopter eight minutes later.
"Unfortunately the patient did not survive the cardiac arrest and our thoughts are with her family at this difficult time."
The spokesman added: "The Scottish Ambulance Service has asked the Health Professions Council to consider the ambulance technician's decision-making and has suspended the individual whilst this consideration takes place."
The Scottish government said it expected the investigation to examine whether procedures were properly followed and if there were any lessons to be learned.
A spokeswoman added: "Our thoughts are first and foremost with the relatives of this woman at this difficult time."
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-11673344 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-11673344[/url]
Don't really know what to say about the technician really.
saw this on the news.
i suppose everyone is entitled to a break, and apparently what he did was legal.
that doesnt make it morally right tho imho.
if someones life depended on it i hope i would be able to help, no matter if i had a cuppa waiting or not.
Where do you draw the line, I'm on a break, I'm on strike...
Where do you draw the line, I'm on a break, I'm on strike
2 completely different issues.
I was under the impression that ambulance staff have a legal obligation to have a brake every 4 hours just like HGV drivers? If he had a crash on the way or made a mistake whilst treating the patient he would have probably been sacked instantly! It's a catch 22 for the Crews really.
I've been working/on-call and working for 8-12 hours, this is my first break which i need, otherwise I would consider my actions potentially compromised and dangerous?
That's the other side.
how dangerous? so dangerous that someone might die?
how many calls do you think he attended in tomintoul that shift?
Working for the emergency services I'm a firm believer in having breaks, we never do. If it's busy tough you run from job to job possible that don't have a break in 8-12 hours and it's hard, but I chose a service because I wanted to help people and make a difference. However he was 800 yards from this .. he wouldn't have to drive, surely that combined with knowing how far nearest help was, knowing that it is imperative to get to a heart attack victim within minutes and knowing that he was in a job where he is supposed to care about people and want to help, would you not go and help? I can't get my head around it and boy do I feel for the deceased's family. All those what if's to live with.
Indeed, just offering another point of view thats all.
I suppose if you're dealing with life and death every day and you have to fight to get your rest breaks in every day, then maybe it would seem a relatively safe bet not to turn out to a 33 year old woman. Not exactly in a high risk group for a fatal heart attack...
The news article also doesn't mention what symptoms were reported, as I would guess that this was a factor in the tech's decision making.
All those what if's to live with
The same what ifs that people who have lossed friends/family because a paramedic/tech was tired and made a mistake have to live with?
Just because the event was 800 yds from his depot doesnt mean the paramedic was there! believe me we are all pushed in the health service and we all make decisions which could have gone tits up without a bit of luck. If this guy was 800yds from the event a decided not to go then he was wrong and he will regret this decision for the rest of his life! looks like he is going to get trial by media.
She may not be high risk for a heart attack but once the heart attack has started only 2% of people live (or something like that, before people come along and slate me! That's what I've been told) as you need to get to them quickly.
Futuresorange, is it not better than someone ATTEMPTED first aid that didn't bother, he was 800m away?? You can't fault/slate someone for trying first aid, whether tired or not, better than nothing (unless obvious negligence like putting a torniquet around her arm for a heart attack).
I'm not slating the bloke as we never know until we would be in that situation but I do find it a bit staggering given the circs of how cloes he was, knowoing what was possibly happening to her, and knowing how far away next unit was.
However he was 800 yards from this .. he wouldn't have to drive,
surely he would? 1/2 a mile with all the kit - you have to drive.
Paramedics get many false calls - I bet he thought this was one. 33 yr old? Chest pain? Indigestion.
Trial by media does not help and another time I call for no fault investigation. We need to know what happened and to prevent it happening again.
munge - my point was that it is unlikely that the bloke in question was given the information "there's a woman 800m away who is dying from a heart attack". For all we know the ambulance might have been called for very general symptoms such as dizziness, shortness of breath etc.
I was under the impression that ambulance staff have a legal obligation to have a brake every 4 hours
Not possible, especially as many work minimum 12 hour shifts with 2 half hour breaks within that period (unpaid BTW). In addition, in my last 4 day shifts I actually worked over 50 hours with late returns so it doesn't take much working out that is not uncommon to go 6 hours without an official 'stand down'.
From what I have read on the above case (if you believe the newspapers reporting is accurate), the technician was asked to go out and refused. I would rather not comment on the circumstances of this case until all the facts are present but I don't know of anyone I work with who would refuse to go to something of this nature regardless of whether they were on a break or not. In my area, you would not even be informed by control if you were 'stood down' so would be unaware of something happening.
Link to local paper [url= http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1990596 ]Press and Journal this morning[/url]
It wouldn't have been just first aid as such though. It would have been 'advanced' first aid involving technical machines, strong drugs, advanced life saving decisions to have been made as well as possibly the use of advanced driving skills at high speed!
As a professional he would have to ba able to justify his every decision and his ability to do it.
Don't get me wrong i don't think i would have been able to sit there and refuse to go but we're not the professional first aiders as it were!
For all we know the ambulance might have been called for very general symptoms such as dizziness, shortness of breath etc.
A Scottish Ambulance Service spokesman said: "We received a 999 call for a cardiac emergency in Tomintoul at 12:45pm"
Pretty good effort for an Ambulance to get from Grantown to Tomintoul in 20 minutes though - there's a lot of up on that road!
I would think it will be pretty difficult to say whether the local guy going would have made a difference, I guess he's going to have to live with that. The nearest A and E - Elgin - is nearly an hour away.
On the news this evening they were saying that crews don't go out on when they're on a break but that most areas have more than one crew so another would have got the call. Tomintoul is very rural so he was obviously the only guy to call on.
It may be advanced first aid but to this date in the UK NO-ONE has ever been stuck on for attempting first aid. I know emergency services get many false calls, but you have to treat them all as serious until you have something to the contrary.
Okay so maybe 800 yards is further than I thought, but 1/2 mile I mean it's not far!!
I do take what the papers saw with a pinch of salt and I'm merely commenting on the information that I have and those were my thoughts.
It would have been 'advanced' first aid involving technical machines, strong drugs,
Advanced Technicians are very limited on the drug front ie. nothing except O2/airway management and CPR in cardiac arrest and there is no mention of a second crewman.
BTW I'm astonished that Mrs Keith (see link above) has apparently been so 'open' with the press regarding a colleague on a matter which is subject to an enquiry.
There is an interesting comment on the P&J site (god I miss the P&J its a great paper) regarding the 40->37.5h rule for breaks etc. which does lay out the 'other' side of that 'behaviour' as in, the employer wishes cake and eat it i.e. not paid breaks but are you still available to work. Now, ethically and thats what this is about, being a paramedic is most likely looked on as a vocation by the masses and thus you would 'expect' that person to do 'the right thing'. I know thats a lot of quotes but i'm thinking aloud here. But at the end of the day its a job as well and when your employer takes the p1ss like that then there will be some unanticipated behaviours. In my job I might accidentally reboot a server - nobody dies*. In this case someone did.
* actually they could if i borked the lightning strike detection system and there were linesmen working but thats reasonably far fetched.
NZCol I do agree with your last comment about it being a job, I can see what you are saying there. I was just a little surprised when I first heard that was all.
That does sound odd Woody. Rather more info in the public domain than I would expect at this time. Also they had an unfilled vacancy there - one of three posts. How many hours had he been on duty for at that point?
The other thing from the report in the press is
Mr Taylor, 29, arrived back from work to find his partner was not breathing.
How long had she been not breathing for? Was she actually dead when he found her? Sounds possible / probable
Munqe chick
I understand your 'angst' and reaction to the 'facts' as they have been presented thus far. However, I think it would be better to wait for a full report on the events before making patronising comments such as [i]"you have to treat them all as serious until you have something to the contrary"[/i].
The Press and Journal article has some very telling quotes from one of his colleagues, who's also complained about the incident:
[b]Part-time Tomintoul ambulance driver Shirley Keith, 43, was also on duty that day. She was at home in Conglass Lane when Mr McLauchlan, who is based at Dufftown but is originally from Linlithgow, took the call.
She said: “I heard the air ambulance going over the top of my house. I noticed an ambulance at Mandy’s house at the bottom of the road.
“I phoned the station. I said ‘Owen what’s going on? There's an air ambulance at the bottom of my road’.
“His exact words were ‘Shirley, you're not going to like what I'm about to say. They shouted me on my break but I refused to go’.”
Mrs Keith, who has not gone back to work since the incident on October 16 and has also lodged a complaint with the ambulance service, added: “I was totally numb with disbelief, I just hung up the phone.
“We may not have been able to make a difference to Mandy but we were only two minutes away from her and he's got all the equipment, including a defibrillator, in the back of the ambulance.
“When Mandy really needed help he let her down. That is so wrong.”[/b]
I have already said I'm making my comments based on what I have read, however when you work for an emergency service you have to treat them all as serious, there is nothing patronising about my comment. So you sit there and hang around until something more concrete comes in to say it isn't a prank???
I have also said I can 100% see both sides of the story (from what I've read),as I have already said I work for an emergency service where you can get run off your feet and don't eat or drink in 5 hours, so I understand the situation.
If the guy was in Tomintoul was he really likely to have been run off his feet that day?
Not possible, especially as many work minimum 12 hour shifts with 2 half hour breaks within that period (unpaid BTW). In addition, in my last 4 day shifts I actually worked over 50 hours with late returns so it doesn't take much working out that is not uncommon to go 6 hours without an official 'stand down'.
Fair enough, although 2 breaks within 12 hours would allow a break every 4 hours. Does the trust you work for have a policy that states you should be having a break every 4 hours though? and if it does would they defend you if you made a mistake after this time?
Munqe-chick
Apologies. Having re-read your posts I just assumed you have limited knowledge of emergency [b]medical[/b] services.
thefutureisorange
It doesn't work like that as it is very rare that you are on station to start a break every 4 hours. There are 'banding times' eg. if you start a shift at 0630 the banding for the first break is between 1000 and 1200. You can be sent to an emergency any time up to 5 hours 40 minutes from shift start which in effect means that if you are enroute back to station at 1205 (already out of banding) and an emergency comes in, you HAVE to attend that emergency. By the time the patient has been taken to hospital and you get back to base, it may be 1400 ie. 7.5 hours after the start of the shift. This is not uncommon.
What's up bruneep not getting enough support for your striking fire colleagues so you thought you would post this to stir things up a bit?
Eh?
No, the person who died is the sister of a work colleague.
If we get a call out we go, regardless if it is a meal break or not. I have missed many a lunch/meal break. Then I suppose that you think I'm not entitled to that either.
brack you do realise that its not every fire brigade striking don't you ? all are different funded differently and operate differently. its London with a problem not every single fire service. just thought id point that out to you 🙂
apologies for the hi jack
It doesn't work like that as it is very rare that you are on station to start a break every 4 hours. There are 'banding times' eg. if you start a shift at 0630 the banding for the first break is between 1000 and 1200. You can be sent to an emergency any time up to 5 hours 40 minutes from shift start
Okay so what would you do if you got a call at 5 hours and 50 minutes?
I was aware that if you get a call you stay until it has finished btw.
Bruneep condolences to all concerned a truly saddening story!
But seeing as though you took the time to post it .....perhaps instead of fitting free of charge bloody smoke alarms the fire service could perhaps be first responding with defibrillators?
Or is that something the FB unions would oppose as being a 'radical restructuring'?
Not much info in the link. For example did the guy know it was only close by and what info did he have to make the decision he did?
Regardless, an emergency call is an emergency call and its perceived importance or outcome is surely not up to a technician on his break to decide - surely there are rules for covering this particular set of circumstances?
In much the same way a nurse would not fail to respond to an emergency after sitting down to their first break 9 hours into a 12 hour shift.
But seeing as though you took the time to post it .....perhaps instead of fitting free of charge bloody smoke alarms the fire service could perhaps be first responding with defibrillators?
Seeing as you took the time to post that, could you not also have taken time to think things through a bit first? 🙄
the fire service could perhaps be first responding with defibrillators?
Brack, again that is another issue altogether. We are all trained to FPOS level and for you your information defib's are being trialled in selected stations in the Grampian area.
But seeing as though you took the time to post it .....perhaps instead of fitting free of charge bloody smoke alarms
Would you rather we charged for the detectors? Or didn't fit at all so that fire deaths increase?. I fail to see the reason behind that comment
He might have been on the shitter?
When did this site turn into heatmagazine/daily mailcommentssectionworld?
What is there to trial with an AED????
Jeez get with the times - they are not exactly rocket science to use are they??
Just to set the cat amongst the pigeons, When I'm on break, i'm not paid, therefore not insured, so it would be illegal and irresponsible to attend to an emergency. Also, pretty much ever job I go to is classed as a cardiac emergency or "chest pains" but i haven't seen a real heart attack in months. Its tragic that this woman died, and I'd hate to be in the position this colleague is in, but the truth of the matter is, there will always be another 999 call. If I "ran on" every job that came in i'd never get home! Its normally 7 hours into my 10 hour shift that I get my first break, and on a 0600 start i'm usually out for 0545. Not everything is black and white.
Okay so what would you do if you got a call at 5 hours and 50 minutes?
Control would not call unless it was a major incident as we would technically be 'non-operational' due to the length of time without a break. Hypothetically, if for some reason there was no cover in the area and control did call with a confirmed cardiac arrest, serious incident involving a child etc. then (speaking personally) of course I would attend as a 'first responder' until a back-up ambulance could get to the incident.
Edit: What meehaja says is spot-on. Without sounding cynical, out of every Cat 'A' ie. supposedly life-threatening call, maybe only 1 in 50 truly is.
When I'm on break, i'm not paid, therefore not insured, so it would be [b]illegal and irresponsible to attend to an emergency.[/b]
Really!! I find that hard the believe
It's true.....and yes it is unbelievable!