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most NHS staff are not paid for some breaks. If you are not being paid it is your time to do with as you wish - sleep, leave the premises or whatever.
most NHS staff are not paid for some breaks. If you are not being paid it is your time to do with as you wish - sleep, leave the premises or whatever
I'll tell my wife that then........12hrs without a proper break. 🙄
We area available for the full duration of our shift, we may get our break back later, if we're not to busy fitting free alarms at Bracks hooose 😉
Its normally 7 hours into my 10 hour shift that I get my first break,
And then they stop your money whilst you're having the break ? 😯
Yep, that is indeed unbelievable......your trade union wants to get off its arse and organise some industrial action. I can't see how any management can defend that.
your trade union wants to get off its arse and organise some industrial action.
Oh FFS you don't want to do that, you'll be burned at the stake by the Daily Mail readers on here.
bruneep - is she paid for the full 12 hrs? Usually you are not but I have worked in posts where you are because you remain "on call" when on breaks.
One post I had the shift lasts 11 3/4 hrs and you get paid for 10 1/2.
The UK meal break situation for frontline ambulance crews is farcical and I really hope that this sad case goes someway to changing things... Let's hope so!
But what you have to understand is that I personally work on my own. I am a paramedic practitioner/ ecp. I start work at 7am and am generally hammered right the way through till late afternoon whereupon I finally get chance for a break. That's taking referrals whilst driving on blue lights, giving crews advice, whilst also responding to the full range of jobs para crews get sent to these days.
To think that my body can cope with 12 hrs of that without any break is simply ludicrous therefore we do need some enforced downtime to minimise medical malpractice.
Brack We've carried defibs for years and sometimes first respond if ambulance service are busy. And still fit smoke alarms. How do you like those apples 😉
No she's not, she is a midwife so short staffed it's dangerous. She sometimes has to look after 4 delivering women at he same time. So much for the trust promise of 1 to 1 care. The girls are not very good a standing up and causing a "fuss" as they don't want to be seen as trouble makers.
I am concerned for her H&S at times.
Fine apples indeed! How on earth do you get time for calendar shoots, charity car washes and fire fighting as well.
Truly awe inspiring!!
Ps do me a favour if you get a chance could you show bruneep which big shiny button he needs to press on those defibs he's trialling !
I would rather not comment on the circumstances of this case until all the facts are present
probably the best policy
How on earth do you get time for [s]calendar shoots[/s] too ugly for that, [s]charity car washes[/s] in my own time and fire fighting as well [b]RTC's, special services, community fire safety, MD & USAR Training etc.. etc.[/b]
You seem to have a right beef with the fire service!!
Ps do me a favour if you get a chance could you show bruneep which big shiny button he needs to press on those defibs he's trialling !
Our station isn't trialling it
and I'll show you how to push the button on your free smoke alarm
both buttons are capable of saving a life
The girls are not very good a standing up and causing a "fuss" as they don't want to be seen as trouble makers.
Which is why the employer gets away with it. They need to stand up and be counted - its actually in the best interests of the patient.
We all work over and are flexible in emergencies. However to allow situations like that to continue long term is bad for everyone. Don't let the employer get away with it.
derek_starship - MemberManslaughter.
[/thread]
Don't be stupid. She was possibly dead before the husband got home, its quite possible the outcomes would have been the same even if she wasn't dead at taht point. Cardiac arrest a long way from a hospital? Odds are very poor.
Which is why the employer gets away with it. They need to stand up and be counted - its actually in the best interests of the patient.We all work over and are flexible in emergencies. However to allow situations like that to continue long term is bad for everyone. Don't let the employer get away with it.
I tell her this weekly
Nope no beef with the fire service... Like I've said before you do a great job mate.
Just think you live in a bit of a bubble and really do need to go spend some time with other services for some contrast!
Just think you live in a bit of a bubble and really do need to go spend some time with other services for some contrast!
ditto
Fair enough comment.
Ive spent a week on a busy main firestation and have to admit it was a real eyeopener!!
Nah... I can't lie....To be honest I've never been so bored in all my life.
wish i worked for the fire service. More money, more down time and everyone thinks you're super. Plus the worlds best PR department!
Right can't be bothered with the ambulance vs fire argument again, call out figures speak for that.
The article has huge gaps in it. I can't recall if the SAS has unpaid meal breaks are not if they're unpaid he has no obligation to attended, moral maybe but no legal.
HPC won't investigate this Techs aren't registered.
There's more to the story than is in the paper, as usual they are making a huge fuss with very few details.
As for Fireservice and AED firstresponding it seems regional not service wide.
Missed this one out this am.
I was under the impression that ambulance staff have a legal obligation to have a brake every 4 hours just like HGV drivers? If he had a crash on the way or made a mistake whilst treating the patient he would have probably been sacked instantly! It's a catch 22 for the Crews really.
Emergency services are exempt from certain driving regulations and working time directives. In order for us to provide full cover in 12 hour shifts working 3 one week and 4 the next they'd need to pay us for the 2x30 minute breaks we are entitled to per day. As this is essentially overtime it would have to agreed to work it and can't be forced. Each service has come up a solution to this most opting for the none payment option and being taking off-line. During this period the staff member/s are not on duty. The Fire service pay members for meal breaks which is why they can be 'heroic' attended whether tucking into a meal or not.
As I say I'm not sure what condition the SAS has for meal break but the published story has much more to it that they are letting on.
I been on long enough to have been in the era when we got paid for meal break and you were available to respond through out the shift. If you talk to ambulance staff many will be happy to revert back to that but as terms and conditions have changed, when we all signed new contracts the whole of the NHS not just one service, we have to be paid. It's this payment that has caused local disagreements though as it was seen as a condition that should be settled locally.
Right can't be bothered with the ambulance vs fire argument again, call out figures speak for that.
Yeah cause our fire reduction and education has worked. What are you doing to reduce your calls?
Right can't be bothered with the ambulance vs fire argument again
You just can't help yourself can you.
The Fire service pay members for meal breaks which is why they can be 'heroic' attended whether tucking into a meal or not.
We do not get paid for meal breaks, however we [b]have[/b] to attend unlike the those who choose not to.
You do have a very valid point there bruneep!
And is a question that every frontline paramedic asks on a daily basis...what is the ambulance service doing to reduce it's riddiculous number of calls? Most of which are inappropriate.
The trouble is we are so overstretched that little or no funding is directed towards weeding out the time wasters and the misguided.
The 999 medical system- is let's face it societies safety net. To filter the genuine out from the less so is fraught with medico legal implications far too complex to discuss on here and tapping away on my iphone screen will allow ;@)
It is not quite as simple as giving school talks to children and giving out stickers!
How would you propose to do this?
[i]
Last night, one ambulance driver claimed that Mr McLauchlan had the “full support” of his colleagues – because he had “done nothing wrong”. The paramedic, who asked not to be named, said: “We believe the only mistake he made that day was answering the phone.
“We’re not supposed to answer a call from control if we are on a break. When the controller asked Owen if he was available he said no. A lot of us would have gone to that call-out, but Owen’s very new and I think he didn’t really understand the implications.
“I know that he would not do it again, if he even works again. He’s absolutely devastated at the outcome. Owen’s done nothing wrong policy-wise or procedural-wise. We’re all quite distressed about what’s happened to him. All the Scottish ambulance road staff are behind him. We’re all supporting him fully.”
A Scottish Ambulance Service spokesman said staff are entitled to an uninterrupted break during their shift under UK NHS pay arrangements. He added: “In Scotland, ambulance staff can waive that entitlement, if they choose to do so, in the interests of patient care.”
Staff who opt out are paid £250 a year, although it is understood most have chosen not to “on principle”.
Read more: http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1992392#ixzz14CvcfL9E [/i]
As with most stories there is usually something behind it.
[i]but Owen’s very new and I think he didn’t really understand the implications[/i]
How new, and who'd 'mentored' him?
[i]Owen’s done nothing wrong policy-wise or procedural-wise[/i]
What management support has he had (I suspect very little), and they've all ducked while he took the full fallout.
It is not quite as simple as giving school talks to children and giving out stickers!
Not as daft as it sounds these young persons are future adults. We had a real problem with fires in a certain area, we went into the schools youth groups all the places young kids go to. To educate them on the dangers of fire setting, it has taken a few years but now there are almost zero fires in that area now. We are great at doing ourselves out of a job.........
The 999's are now call managed by the control room, if you call 999 saying that you're locked out they will advise you to call a locksmith, unless you say you've left a pan on 🙄
How would you propose to do this?
Not for me to sort out the Ambulance unnecessary calls, that is best done by those within who know the system, what would YOU suggest?
I suggest you go out with an ambulance crew bruneep or ask your wife to arrange a day in A&E you clearly have no understanding of healthcare, mental health issues, and general failings of society if you think that by giving a talk to a child it will prevent future adult diabetes, heart failure, schizophrenia, copd, homelessness, drink /drug issues, child abuse, domestic abuse ...........etc etc etc
The paramedic, who asked not to be named, said: “We believe the only mistake he made that day was answering the phone.“We’re not supposed to answer a call from control if we are on a break. When the controller asked Owen if he was available he said no. A lot of us would have gone to that call-out, but Owen’s very new and I think he didn’t really understand the implications.
💡 hmmmmm, just supposing he hadn't answered the phone then?
Would the ambulance service then be answering questions as to how it took them 21 minutes to get to a clear-cut call for a 33 year old in a cardiac emergency?
Anyone know if that would be a normal or unacceptable repsonse time for that area?
It wouldn't be normal down here (devon), particularly in light of the tragic loss of this lady, and probably wouldn't be remotely newsworthy if it was a less serious case. (although our rural response times are greatly improved by the existence and attendance of first responders, I am not sure how long it can take for a paramedic to attend right out in the sticks).
Yeah cause our fire reduction and education has worked. What are you doing to reduce your calls?
This again. The NHS as a whole pushes the pathways method of seeking help, asking people to think about service they require. Part of my duty when I attended is to give advice to those that may have called the wrong service for their condition. We also have to do the opposite, encourage suspected stroke and cardiac patients to call 999 not "pop along to their Dr in a couple of days if it doesn't settle." Just because you are not aware of it doesn't mean we don't, what we can't do though is drive around in the ambulance door to door promoting this as we don't have time to 'hotspot' whilst on duty.
A Scottish Ambulance Service spokesman said staff are entitled to an uninterrupted break during their shift under UK NHS pay arrangements. He added: “In Scotland, ambulance staff can waive that entitlement, if they choose to do so, in the interests of patient care.”Staff who opt out are paid £250 a year, although it is understood most have chosen not to “on principle”.
Ah that's their conditions then, we don't get called that part was taking away from us. We were called at first to see if we'd attended and got an allowance if we did but it was withdrawn one of the reasons was the possible implications if someone did refuse.
We do not get paid for meal breaks, however we have to attend unlike the those who choose not to.
My mistake but I can't speak for those who choose not to as we don't choose, we can't we're off duty. I take it in that case you attended when your always off duty?
When it comes to a fairly rural setting like in this instance, I'm sorry, but I dont buy the "I'm on a break thing". It may work in a busy city where there is generally cover nearby, and the difference in attendance times very little, then I can understand it, but not here.
I work in one of the emergency services, in a moderately rural location, if a call comes out and I know its me nearest by a considerable margin , the break is dropped and the call gets attended to.
As already brought up before, in a rural location like this situation is, its more likely to be some down time which will balance out the odd occasion when you have to cut short a break.
I think its poor show in this case.
Would the ambulance service then be answering questions as to how it took them 21 minutes to get to a clear-cut call for a 33 year old in a cardiac emergency?Anyone know if that would be a normal or unacceptable repsonse time for that area?
If it's cardiac origin then it's seen as 8 minutes response time so yes I'd say they be answering why it took so long but this is almost daily. Then again as you say maybe there was a [s]Time Bandit[/s] first responder in the area who got there to beat the clock.
[i]Anyone know if that would be a normal or unacceptable repsonse time for that area? [/i]
Have a look, what do you reckon?
http://www.maplandia.com/united-kingdom/scotland/scotland/moray/tomintoul/
I'm sorry, but I dont buy the "I'm on a break thing"
Crap - now all I can see is Hugh Laurie sitting on a plane next to Jennifer Aniston [i]"it seems perfectly clear to me that you WERE on a break!"[/i]
So is the upshot of all this the usual story that people are shocked and outraged because a system of working was put in place by management, someone followed it and, as a result, a fallacy in the system was highlighted. Now, as usual, the management get to say sorry, and the bod who had the system imposed on them is about to get pilloried in the press.
its a shame, but as is usually the case it seems someone has to die to highlight failings in the system.
Yeah Ditch and Firestarter that's the way I see it.
Staff who opt out are paid £250 a year, although it is understood most have chosen not to “on principle”.
The principal being, that as well as being a derisory and insulting amount of money, it would mean that front line staff could be 'out' for 8 or 9 hours without a break. Would the management support a member of staff who made a clinical error or had a crash enroute due to fatigue?
This has been done to death between the unions and management to the point of both parties going to arbitration in my area. A supposedly binding agreement was reached and (by my understanding) the national body of the union forced the local union to ignore the agreement as there were National negotiations ongoing. That was a few years ago.................................
Sorry woody but you have confused me about the break thing a bit as i think that you have confirmed what i had said with your counter argument! And what meehaja states also kind of confirms what i thought the situation was. So i'm gonna leave it now as my head hurts 😡 it doesn't take much.
What about the 7/7 inquest with the Ambulance technician who decided not to act on initiative and 'sit tight' even though he was the first on scene?
Yeah Woody the National Agreement in the end was "Sort it out yourselves" so that was that.
£250 per year is pathetic, as you know most of the busy stations will get that and more per month for all the meal breaks they didn't get. Not because they got the only call of the day whilst on their break because they never got back from going out from before the start of their shift.
What about the 7/7 inquest with the Ambulance technician who decided not to act on initiative and 'sit tight' even though he was the first on scene?
Hora, you do understand our protocols for treating large casualty incidents? I'm going to say no with you troll like comment.
Yes and why did firemen at the scene shout and swear at him whilst people were dying?
Troll? A member of the public has a perception of what the emergency services does.
All I can say is I hope some real good comes out of this inquest.
Yes and why did firemen at the scene shout and swear at him whilst people were dying?
As Drac has pointed out Hora - you know nothing about protocols and the reasons they are in place, so probably best to STFU and save your comments for something you know about.
Yes and why did firemen at the scene shout and swear at him whilst people were dying?
Frustration, pressure and stress would be my guess but what ever it was there's no need for it but having never been in a situation as bad as that I can't say how I'd react myself.
Troll? A member of the public has a perception of what the emergency services does.
Perception or lack of understanding? Still came across as troll like or at least having a stir.
First on scene at a mass casualty event has to asses various things and not treat patients. They're of no use if they start treating people, without knowing where the exact location is, best area to approach from, other services dangers in the area and number if casualties then you end up with a poor and delayed response from back up support.
All I can say is I hope some real good comes out of this inquest.
Your edited your post so I'll now answer this bit. All emergency services are ahead of the report on this, Ambulances services have introduced HART crews in case of such events.
Perception or lack of understanding? Still came across as troll like or at least having a stir
I really hope that accusation isn't thought of or levelled in the inquest.
Do you know what a troll is in this situation? I feel you've missused a term here.
My thoughts on this are from a member of the public. I see what I see and as such I am perfectly entitled to see the evidence in a dull light.
I really hope that accusation isn't thought of or levelled in the inquest.
Hora, raising the issue at inquest is not the same as chucking one line in or a forum discussing a different case. I reckon it's you that doesn't understand the term troll, ok you weren't being deliberate but you comment wasn't of much use to case in question. It'd be like me asking Bruneep about the swearing fireman or why a fireman wouldn't rescue a man drowning in a lake screaming not to die. It's has little relation to the case in question.
Member of the public can think what they want. They are not the ones who are going without meal breaks or having their safety threatened.
Rule one of looking after other peoples health - look after your own health first.