[Closed] am i getting crapped on at work?

Still about you then

but all of your above post is obfuscation.

I dont know any of the facts or history of his managers actions so its impossible for me to comment. As with all of these things there are two sides. You seem to take the OPs as fact then extrapolate from there with lots of generalisations about poor employers etc.
Simply because you can make up questions doesn't mean they are good ones or worthy of a response.
You have mentioned contracts etc hence my question. Feel free not to answer it but you cant have it both ways, referring to them one minute then ignoring requests to demonstrate them the next.

Human nature - if you're good at your job your boss will be more flexible. If you're inefficient, unhelpful or difficult to work with, then your boss will be less flexible -

thats BS some managers are just crap and will push and push and if no one stands up to them will ride roughshod over thise they think they can bully easily

conversely some employees will take the piss as much as they can

Im surprised at so many people are attacking the OP yet defending a manager who........

seemed to show a general lack of professional courtesy towards me or my work and will make snide or sarcastic remarks in front of others...often to make me look small...

Im surprised at so many people are attacking the OP yet defending a manager who........

i am not defending the manager and if thats true its appaling. Its not fair to jump to the conclusion that all of these things are true simply from the OP. They may or may not be.

Human nature - if you're good at your job your boss will be more flexible. If you're inefficient, unhelpful or difficult to work with, then your boss will be less flexible - especially where it's a less formal thing (rather than a formal clocking system).

Sometimes people are too good at their job and managers get frightened by staff that will outshine them. This insecurity then means that your role gets diminished and no credit gets oven for your work, I've seen that happen before...

You seem to take the OPs as fact

then extrapolate from there with lots of generalisations about poor employers etc.

Simply because you can make up questions doesn't mean they are good ones or worthy of a response.

Feel free not to answer it but you cant have it both ways,

Simply because you can make up questions doesn't mean they are good ones or worthy of a response.

Was that intentional irony as it really made me chuckle 😆
You wont answer but i should ...awesome.

. Its not fair to jump to the conclusion that all of these things are true simply from the OP. They may or may not be.

Good luck OP hope it all works out well for you I doubt any clarity will come from the following "debate"

kimbers - Member
thats BS some managers are just crap and will push and push and if no one stands up to them will ride roughshod over thise they think they can bully easily

Yeah, there are loads of crap managers out there but you're trying to tell me that it's not human nature to treat someone more flexibly if they are good at their job, flexible in return and not a pita to work with?? I didn't say anything about bullying.

what extrapolation ? What have I made up I just refer to what the OP has stated. Show me something I made up not in the OPS posts?

The OP made a statement then you followed on with:

Yes those are the facts do you have a view on it ?

I think you are playing fast and loose with the term "facts"

It seems clear he is being deliberately targeted

Not to me and it would appear a number of others on here.

Employers will take the piss if they can get away with it and flexibility is one direction - try and get paid for not working if you think this is not the case or start coming in late and leaving early if you want to see what they think of "flexibility" and your contractual terms

This is not my experience. It maybe yours but you dont appear objective. I would call this extrapolation given the limited evidence we have.

perhaps the current manager cannot spot talent or rewards arse lickers above talent

Again you are making a rather large leap based on the above bias.

Companies often expect work for nothing so it shows that it is all take and no give

In your experience again. Mine is different which means there may be at least two sides to this story.

Do you think the manager will forget he turned up late due to his car troubles

I dont know, neither do you but you are prepared to make an assumption.

You wont answer but i should ...awesome.

Well the point being mine was a reasonable question related specifically to "contracts" as you kept mentioning it. Your questions were a bit silly based around "what do you think" etc and were purely hypothetical.
Dont answer mine I really dont care but if you keep on referring to contracts and their obligations etc then dont be surprised if people ask for some evidence of them (of course I dont mean for us to see them but for the OP to refer to them in the course of his request to his manager)

dashed - Member

Human nature - if you're good at your job your boss will be more flexible

That'd be nice. But sometimes being good at your job means your boss feels threatened, or decides to take advantage. Also human nature. And sometimes a personal opinion overrides the reality of whether or not you're good at your job. Also human nature.

what extrapolation ? What have I made up I just refer to what the OP has stated. Show me something I made up not in the OPS posts?
The OP made a statement then you followed on with:

Yes those are the facts do you have a view on it ?
I think you are playing fast and loose with the term "facts"

Sorry I ask you about proof of extrapolation and you comment on the use of the words facts. I think we have all established you have no opinion because we have no facts to work with hence why you are expressing no opinion so clearly. 😉
Next Time i will make sure i add the caveat [ as claimed by the OP but we have no independent verifiable way of knowing the truth or otherwise of such claims]
Happy?

It seems clear he is being deliberately targeted
Not to me and it would appear a number of others on here.

Employers will take the piss if they can get away with it and flexibility is one direction - try and get paid for not working if you think this is not the case or start coming in late and leaving early if you want to see what they think of "flexibility" and your contractual terms
This is not my experience. It maybe yours but you dont appear objective. I would call this extrapolation given the limited evidence we have.

perhaps the current manager cannot spot talent or rewards arse lickers above talent
Again you are making a rather large leap based on the above bias.

Companies often expect work for nothing so it shows that it is all take and no give
In your experience again. Mine is different which means there may be at least two sides to this story.

Do you think the manager will forget he turned up late due to his car troubles
I dont know, neither do you but you are prepared to make an assumption.

Your questions were a bit silly based around "what do you think" etc and were purely hypothetical.

This is simple as i can make it.
Is it good management [ if it happened if you prefer] to give TOIL to all the people present for 2 hours and to give one person only one hour and reluctantly ?

We both know it is not and I have no idea why you have not just said so and done this instead

Anyway before the lock and the ban hammer I shall leave you and other to it
Some brilliant stuff there

What I do care is that of their own volition they do whatever is required to ensure their work does not suffer (take a bit home, come in early next day etc).

Do you get paid sick pay. ? If yes and you have a clean sick record (if it was me) I would phone in sick go to your GP and tell them you have stress due to work...send a letter to HR explaining every thing you have told us.

It sounds like bullying and NO body should have to put up with it in..

Hope every thing turns out ok for you.. I have been in a simler position 2years ago and it not a good place to be.

So your experience fine and mine extrapolation and your experience is objective and mine is subjective
comedy gold

I think despite the miracle of copy and paste you are simply being obtuse. From your extrapolation you are jumping to a conclusion and from my experience I am saying we simply dont know.
You are jumping to a conclusion I am saying we dont have enough evidence.
If you cant see the difference between those two positions I really despair. Comedy gold is right.

Sorry I ask you about proof of extrapolation and you comment on the use of the words facts. I think we have all established you have no opinion because we have no facts to work with hence why you are expressing no opinion so clearly.

You do realise this makes no sense dont you. with regard to your use of the work "facts" the point (as you know) that I was making was you have taken the OPs post and then presented it as a "fact" upon which to base your following arguments. That is extrapolation.

well everyoine else worked late and got two hours toil and he got one.

Well according to the OP but without evidence we cant be sure that the process was followed consistently. Again you are now presenting this as a fair reflection of events.
I was actually refering in my post to the "fact" that many other posters on here where sceptical of the OP's performance given some of the other items he mentions. I think you may have deliberatley misunderstood this 😉

PS as it it is your objective [sic] experience that employers will pay you for not working - do you have any contacts in this industry as I am very keen to not work and get paid.

Again I have made it very clear that the flexibility that we both agree is a good thing (you did agree that didnt you :roll:) means that this may be manifested by somebody coming in late or leaving early. By definition this means that they are being paid for not being there. I hope I have made that clear for you.

Why dont you guess at what theyu are whilst criticising me for "extrapolating
This is trully brilliant stuff

I am criticising you for extrapolating based on your prejudice. What has guessing mean in this context? did this make sense when you wrote it?

Anyway before the lock and the ban hammer I shall leave you and other to it

Well really given your first page smart arse post that was condescending 😀 and in that post you said you were leaving IIRC but you are still here 😀

From your extrapolation you are jumping to a conclusion and from my experience I am saying we simply dont know.

Well according to the OP but without evidence we cant be sure that the process was followed consistently. Again you are now presenting this as a fair reflection of events.

I have made it very clear that the flexibility that we both agree is a good thing (you did agree that didnt you :roll:)

[b]What has guessing mean in this context?[/b] did this make sense when you wrote it?

Oh no of course not we are still doing this

I wonder if it's possible to bore a person to death...

Thing is, you can't take anything anyone says here anywhere at face value, there is always room for doubt. But if every response to every thread is "Well, that's just one version of events" then things'll get pretty dull fast. Though obviously still not as dull as a big hitter type-off.

"Dear Singletrack, yesterday I cracked my frame, what new frame should I get?"

"We've only got your word that the frame's cracked! I think you should keep your old frame"

wow it's a big hitter quote fuction shoot out 🙂

Speak to Unison. Even if you aren't a member they should be able to give you some advice about the situation in terms of employment law.
Also at a uni and they have helped me in the past, although am a member.
Or just go ahead and join...

Jeez just flash read the last 2 pages.

Some of that bollox up there is why I think unions should be abolished. They were necessary for their time but now just hark back to a bygone time in the workplace.

It's all been said up there, on my experience of managing quite a lot of people the vast majority of performance issues in a dept come from a small number of people, who seem maybe through severe bad luck have lots of stuff go wrong, regualrly.

If you think you can do better get another job. If not get your head down and stop giving people reasons to fire you. That post about sick leave with stress is another golden bit of evidence about how these people abuse the system.

Jobs aren't a right, a lot of people out there would love your job....

This is all far easier in law firms.

If someone isn't very good, their work rapidly piles up as they burn the midnight oil trying to stay afloat and deal with vicious negative criticism and being ignored by their superiors. After a while, they suffer a nervous breakdown and swiftly leave.

I believe we have an HR department, but I think it deals chiefly with pregnant women and the creation of baroque performance appraisal forms that are irrelevant as you are either (a) doing OK, but could work harder or (b) under the care of a psychiatrist and looking for a new job.

🙂

wow it's a big hitter quote fuction shoot out

I thought I could compete but even I lost the will to live and could barely recall what I was trying to say. I had flashbacks to the TJ days where you simply get beaten by a persons greater time and internet access.

Some of that bollox up there is why I think unions should be abolished. They were necessary for their time but now just hark back to a bygone time in the workplace.

Unions abolished? Well, that's a fairly grandiose pronouncement. It's a pity that folk feel this way - but no great surprise. Stronger worker representation is very much needed in these times. Not as much as when "worker" were viewed as little more than consumables, but needed all the same. I suppose they're a bit of a fly in the ointment for companies that wish to shaft their employees.

<mod>
Plz 2 be stopping arguing now, kkthxbi.
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I suppose they're a bit of a fly in the ointment for companies that wish to shaft their employees.

Greater worker protection today (although always room for improvement) which means less of a need but there is no doubt that if they disapeared things would regress quickly.

Well, that's a fairly grandiose pronouncement.

My view is that the Union represent/advocates for the workers to management and we all try and get along. Everyone wants to enjoy work and every employer wants a happy workforce. Hostility, from either side, helps no one and I view the role more as a communication one than a battle tbh.

Often I am more effective at pointing out to staff that they are being unreasonable than "management " are as they know I am on their side.

Perhaps I have been lucky in that I have always had fair employers who have always tried their best.

I still think it makes little sense to assume the OP's post is untrue and the manager is still acting unlawfully.

It seems from the multitude of "I'm being shafted" threads on here and from the experiences of two close friends (of course, they could have been bullshitting) who really were shafted recently, that in non-unionised workplaces, especially, larger corporations, that it is often seen as easier to just GTFO and find a new job rather than take the employer to a tribunal because of the hassles and stresses of an individual fighting against much bigger resources. Were I in the same situation, I guess I'd probably just go sheepishly in the end too as life is too short and all that. But there is no doubt that larger corporations that advantage of this.

Unions aren't generally needed for the kind of stuff for which they were set up - which really was to see if workers could be expected to make it home alive on an evening to eat supper with their families (legislation takes care of most of that; was that pushed originally by employers I wonder?) - but I see no reason why they shouldn't fight to get employees a larger chunk of the pie. After all, if none of the main parties are willing to narrow the gap between rich and poor, then I'd happily let the unions have a go. Look at tube-drivers - out-earning most of STW by a long shot. 🙂

Employers always hold the upperhand as it is after all their ball [ bit like mods] so unions certainly help as it gives a formal and "neutral" service to speak up on your behalf rather thn ahave an individual have to do it alone and look like they are the problem as no one else complains.
On this thread there was plenty of talk about managing folk out of work rather than talk about training, assistance and support for said employee which I would assume is managing tbh- Yes i have sacked folk for ability reasons but all failed the probation rather than ones who had been there for years. Not one mention of the peter principle though.
As for rights I would point out that none of them were given by employers, not health and safety, equal pay, minimum wage, time directives, holiday pay, sick pay ......the dark satanic mines [ or sweat shops of the far east currently]is how an employer would treat you if they still could.
Unions will never have had their day though the role they need to perform in the workplace will change

I think it best to assume that the OP has given a mostly factual account. if they have lied, or their personal bias has blinded to certain aspects, then the efficacy of any given advice will be diluted or neutralised. Thus they are the only one to suffer.

but to argue with advice (given on the basis of the op being true) based on the possibility of it not being true serves less than no purpose.

but to argue with advice (given on the basis of the op being true) based on the possibility of it not being true serves less than no purpose.

+1

I admit to having read OPs previously and not believed them. In such cases I have thought it best not to bother contributing.

Employers always hold the upperhand as it is after all their ball [ bit like mods] so unions certainly help as it gives a formal and "neutral" service to speak up on your behalf rather thn ahave an individual have to do it alone and look like they are the problem as no one else complains.

Are you mad? Employment law is so heavily weighted in favour of the employee!

Are you mad?

employers can get rid of any employee via a restructure if they chose and making roles redundant]
They can manage out employess - can you manage out an employer?
Employers can force through changes in the contract if they so wish
Ultimately they can even sack everyone and re hire them on worse terms - though that is infrequently done
Employers can move the factory to Spain or 150 miles away
Employers can stop trading if they want
Employees face great difficulty in withdrawing their labour
Employees get some holiday , some sick pay and you cannot discriminate due to gender etc its not much really and the fact remains it is the companies ball so they will always have the most power

What exactly are these great powers that employees have over employers that makes you question my sanity?

What exactly are these great powers that employees have over employers that makes you question my sanity?

Well, can you imagine they actually have a [i]right[/i] to [i]ask[/i] for flexible working hours. And the employer has to [i]actually[/i] consider the request. Before telling them to **** off.

If every valuable employee voted with their feet when they were being put upon and proved how easy it was for a decent person to move jobs then bad management and companies treating people badly would soon become a thing of the past. Do you think I can achieve my targets without a happy and motivated work force? Nope. I, the manager, need you more than you need me. But, I've got stuff to do too, and is my time better spent managing flex time, compassionate leave and time monitoring from some one under performing, or maybe hiring that fresh new face a couple of years out of uni who wants to go places?

I was treated poorly 5 years into my career after being passed up for promotion due to a disagreement with a senior manager, I got bitter about it and hung around for a couple of years still being passed over. Till finally I got a promotion in another dept, only to find said manager had put in a bad word for me there to. So, I voted with my feet, got the job I deserved with a much better firm and a nice pay rise. Don't play the victim. For good people jobs are out there don't take any crap. After my experience I thought a union would have bee the answer, I now work in a company with a union, I have observed what they have achieved over the last 5 years and have come to the conclusion other than adding delay to everything they get involved with no decision has every gone differently to how it would have done without the union. They no longer serve a purpose in my opinion.

I agree with much of what Junkyard says, despite his verbosity and TJesque style, but the establishment of a rigid rule-bound system has its downside.

I can't discuss details, but employees can play that rigid system like binners plays a banjo, hence my scepticism.

So, I voted with my feet, got the job I deserved with a much better firm and a nice pay rise.

If unions were stronger you might even be earning more. 🙂

Junkyard ans DT 78 +loads 😆
Union was no help to my dad many years ago when they were at their peak
Union was no good when MrsT was having issues and are still faceless and useless now that she is in charge of 20 odd staff.
My union is proving just as bad, my works convened is so p.....d off he is taking advantage of the company ver scheme!

In the current manufacturing slump if we were to take any form of industrial action(being talked about)then it is likely the doors will be shut and production moved to China! Pep talks tomorrow apparently 😯

I agree with much of what Junkyard says, despite his verbosity and TJesque style, but the establishment of a rigid rule-bound system has its downside.

That wasn't quite my reading of what JY's asking for. He seems to be proposing that an employer returns the flexibility which he expects from his employee.

EDIT: You stated my view in so many fewer words than me

I am not made for twitter am I 😉

but the establishment of a rigid rule-bound system has its downside.

despite his verbosity and TJesque style

guilty as charged not really helped my case has it

I disagree. I like people with passion even if I don't agree with them, and TJ was a passionate arguer, so carry on fella!

JY....MrsT has the very same issue. She told her staff to sort it themselves or she would sort it for them 👿 There is still the odd individual who has a moan only to be reminded of the options!

I can't see how the OP has grounds to moan, he got his flexible hours, he got an hour toil, and yet still winge, winge. If the car broke down and you were late by 2.5hrs and didn't want to take half a day off, then surely you have to offer and then make up the hours?

If you are that fed up with the job get another, but I expect you'll find it hard to find one that is only a 7 hour day and with flexible hours.

I'd also be surprised if in this case that even a Union would want to touch it with a barge pole, as the grounds for complaint seem minimal IMO. I don't think having a huffy boss is something they'd be bothered with.

i never see it as an us and them situation as it is in everyones best interest we all just get along.
What I dont like is when employers take the piss. It is their rules in their contract so it is not unreasonable to expect them to follow them.
Mange folk out of an organisation is just bad management, sack them or work with them to improve their performance. Often this means make work so unpleasant they would rather leave than face the shit and stress dished out to them. It is pretty much just bullying IMHO.

In this case had he left after one hour of work i doubt the manage would have been fine about it and they were not fine about them being late - despite the issue so it is not even or fair or legal.

he got an hour toil,

If you are that fed up with the job get another, but I expect you'll find it hard to find one that is only a 7 hour day and with flexible hours.

You should familiarise yourself with the legislation as it is now a right and employers must demonstarte that it is impossible* [ not a pain] to do this

Flexible working includes, but is not limited to, part time working. It encompasses a range of options including part time working and can include job sharing, flexible hours, compressed hours, term time working and working from home, or varying start and finish times.

DWP.GOV.UK "http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/family-friendly-task-force-report.pdf"

uniony one on rules

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/recession/5102373/Millions-of-parents-to-be-given-right-to-family-friendly-working.html

At present, around 800,000 people qualify for the right to request flexible working and 90 per cent of applications are currently accepted.
Under the new regulations, workers will have the right to ask employers to alter their contractual hours to fit in with their domestic life.
They may not request fewer hours, but can suggest, for example, altering them so that they fit in with school hours by starting work earlier and leaving by mid-afternoon.

* ok there are spefic reasons they can give so impossible is not strictly accurate

my 2p worth

If you have 7 people working for you and 6 are positive, flexible and helpful and 1 who is negative, disruptive, always having problems, a work-to-rule person, would you manage all of them in the same way?

The 6 you could delegate to, have a collaborative coaching style with and be confident in their self management and decision-making skills.

You would manage them in a completely different way to the person who needed constant prodding to get things done, was always a 'victim of circumstance' (I'm late because my car broke down, etc)
Funny how it's never the fault of this person, always someone else.
Funny how you never get the same problems with your top performers.

A good manager uses different techniques to manage these two types of people.

It seems strange to me that people think it an alien thing to actually enjoy their job and that if they voluntarily want to work through their lunch hour, that they are somehow deranged or the employer is being unfair in some way.
Most people who work through their lunch or beyond what is expected because they want to, often derive other recompense for their efforts. Whether that is having the flexibility to leave 10mins early etc or maybe seeing the face of a happy customer because their order is completed on time or against the odds.

I like my job, I'm happy to be flexible. I like to think that I work hard and contribute to the success of the team and am valued by my boss. The money pays the bills, but its not why I get out of bed in the morning.

I also see those that think they are owed a living, do as little as incompetently possible, are always 'treated unfairly'. They never seem to be able to organise themselves to get to work on time, or sort their childcare, or doctors appointments, all their kit seems to go wrong more often that others.
They just will not put work higher on their list of important things they have to do to get by.
However, ask them to turn up on time for a free beer and see the response.

Yeah fine he might get flexible hours elsewhere but it's not a given. Look I have every sympathy for holding an employer to the contract you signed, and plenty will try it on. However, I wouldn't bother moaning about an hour here or there, it's just petty. Normally universities are pretty cushty places to work in the main, so I'd say this all boils down to personality clashes of which we only have one side.

Plus vote with your feet, if you don't like it move on. I just did after working briefly for a US company who were t*ssers and my new place is much better in comparison.

You would manage them in a completely different way to the person who needed constant prodding to get things done

Not all employees are equal in value but your job is to get the best you can out of each of them....you will still get poor employees and i doubt treating them unfairly will be a motivational master stroke.
if they cannot do the job support them and then train them and then use procedures if they are still not up to the task

I wouldn't bother moaning about an hour here or there,

Would you if everyone else got paid and you did not for doing overtime?

Well work as you mentioned is a 2 way thing, with many shades of grey, so yes in some cases, and no in others. Only the OP knows whether he is working hard, or taking the p*ss and hence, whether he should get the 2 hours or not. But from what he's written he sounds moany to me and others.

I've been an employer (140 people) an employee and am now an employer again (80 people). The rights and wrongs of it vary as every single person has varying tolerances to what they want out of a job and life.
I wrote a big spiel but deleted it.
Suffice to say you get whingers and you get people who would lick the sh1t off your shoe if you asked them. Neither are better or worse. Loyalty works both ways but you have to be clear, consistent and above all else honest.

i've just skimmed thorough the comments since my last comment last wednesday...and i will say this..
some of you seem to think that i am a disruptive and difficult to manage person to manage
you also seem to think i am some sort of whinging shyster who is not picking about one hours work
you also seem to think i'm some sort of incompetent worker who is getting his comeuppance and isnt liking it

well let me set the record straight about some of the points that have been made about me so far...

like i have said i made a request for flexible working, which i am more than entitled to just as any other employee...this was granted very reluctantly even though other colleagues who have also made the same request have not experienced the resistance that i have...how do i know? they have informed me after i casually asked them...

the issues i had in my previous role...was that i was being bullied and harassed by my previous manager...that was dealt with by moving me to another team...they couldnt sack me as they wouldnt have had a leg to stand on in a tribunal...that manager has since left the university...but it seems some of you think it was my fault that i got bullied and therefore maybe i deserved it....was there an issue with my work...no...the quality of my work was not an issue in that incident nor is it in this one...

regarding being flexible...i think i have been more than flexible by working late, starting early, working through my lunches etc in the past...all i did was that i asked to claim back the 2 hours i did as TOIL in the same manner that the rest of my colleagues were...with regards to the extra hour i mentioned as a result of the car breakdown...in the past i have booked half a day off and come in earlier to work and have been told by my line manager that i should take that time off as TOIL later...but seeing as my line manager is off sick at the moment this seems to be an issue...to be honest i'm not even bothered about that hour...

how have i been flexible in the past?...every year i participate in the month of Ramadan that is a prerequisite for every muslim...this means i do not eat or drink during daylight hours...therefore i do not disappear off for a fag break and i do not take my lunch hour....i would rather work through my lunch break and i have never considered claiming this time back...i am fully aware that flexibility works both ways and have always been willing to be as flexible as i can towards my employer...Ramadan starts tonight so again it will be a month of fasting and working through my lunch hour...but i am not bothered by this...

like i said the head of my team who i am having this issue with does not seem to really like me and the only reason i can think of is that i am the only one on her team she did not have a say in the recruitment of...

across the whole division i AM the only BME worker so is it a race issue?...no i do not think it is and i have never thought it has been...there obviously seems to be a clash of personalities here...

is she bullying me? most probably, given that she is aware of what happened previously she seems to have found me to be an easy target but she is being very clever about how she attacks me...whereas the last one wasnt and went at me whenever she felt like it...

some of you think i should quit this job and get a job in the real world...i.e. the private sector...well let me tell you this...i have had jobs in the private sector, the public sector and the third sector...and have never been treated unfairly like i am being right now...yes i should leave if i'm not happy...that is my intention...obviously the timing isn't great but it never is

others get treated better than me....the standard of my work is very high, always has been and always has been...how do i know this? if it wasnt then the issue would have been raised in my one to ones with my line manager or in my annual PDR's....everyone else seems to value my work but her...but like i said its not my work she has an issue with but me...

i'd like to say thanks to those people who have tried to defend my point of view and have tried to offer constructive advice/support...those who have chosen to have a pop at me...well what can i say? you're entitled to your opinion...but for those who have seen this as an opportunity to try to troll me...all i'll say is this...next time you're out on a ride, i hope your dropper shoots the saddle into your nuts...really hard!!

you may not like this response but having spent the last 4 days watching my father in law slowly deteriorate to point where the doctors cannot do any more for him...my mind is in a pretty dark place