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"What's wrong with having a choice?"
I don't think that anyone has said that there was. Even TJ ended his first post with the word choice. Plenty of challenge on the perception that a private education is better than a state one though.
I went to a scabby Welsh comprehensive...and my 5yr old lad looks cute with a No2 all over haircut....what tatoos would the Singletrack massive suggest I get?...oh and some names for my two pitbull puppies would be good too!
Snobby.....moi?
Why are you looking down at kids who have the misfortune to be associated with mad parents? Not nice of you is it.
In answer to the original question " Am I being a snob ? ", the answer is yes, a massive one. If you really think that your childs' education is going to be affected because their peers have cropped hair or names from cheesy vampire flicks, then I'd suggest that the biggest obstacle to their development might be your attitude to the outside world, not the effect of the outside world upon them.Loosen up mate.
If you think your childs NOT going to be influenced by the people around him/her (and although appearance and name are not direct indicators of the type of person, they're certainly a good hint) then I can't possibly imagine the world that you live in, but it's not the real one.
Try leaving politics out of the equation and make a balanced judgement.
And, no, I didn't go to private school, just a London one where there were no expectations other than the attitude "forget an education cos you'll be getting married and having kids".
A study in the states found that wanting your kid to go to a better school was as important to their educational achievement as them actually going to the school of choice, i.e. students who were denied a place at the 'better' school did as well at the worst school as they would have done at the better one.
How on Earth do you test that???
A higher percentage of children from Private school go onto University than Public school. Why else would the Government be trying to make Uni more accessable to Private school students???
Mike thats an interesting point of view, your sixth form right? When I was working at a Uni you could pick privately educated kids easily, confidance bordering on arrogance.
But is that down the the education you recieve or to the attitudes instilled at home?
Well I have no idea as I suspect that most people who send their kids to private schools went to them themselves (as they have been more succesful and can afford it). Its all circular who knows. As you say though high achieving kids from state schools tend to be brighter than kids achieving the same grades at private schools... What it tells us is that state schools arent as good.
How on Earth do you test that???
Analysis of their entry scores with results, and comparing with students who did get into the 'better' school. It was a big study carried out in Chicago, and is in the Freakonomics book.
A higher percentage of children from Private school go onto University than Public school. Why else would the Government be trying to make Uni more accessable to Private school students???
?
The government is trying to get public school students into uni, and attempting to force the universities to drop entry standards because they can't get those standards in sufficient numbers from the target schools - hence http://www.cynicalbastards.com/ubs/.
If you think your childs NOT going to be influenced by the people around him/her (and although appearance and name are not direct indicators of the type of person, they're certainly a good hint)
So because someone has short hair or an odd name, they're going to be a negative influence ??????
Could I suggest that Sir is talking twaddle ?
Yeah, typo on the last one, should have been Public.
Universities themselves actually want to be able to take into account the background and education expereiance of kidsand offerlowr entry requirements to less well off and kids who wentto shit schools because they want the brightestkids not the ones wih the best grades, because they know who is likely to be most succesful
So because someone has short hair or an odd name, they're going to be a negative influence ??????Could I suggest that Sir is talking twaddle ?
You can suggest what you like, and there are often exceptions as per your thinking, but these are indicators of a slightly odd background (parents, peers) that doesn't encourage learning or value academic achievement or relative conformity (which is required to progress in school). I'd suggest that you're talking twaddle, but your opinion has some merit, but IMO it is the exception rather than the rule.
Do a bit of social experimentation, nip down to your local comprehensive - line up the students, group them by "normal hair and name" and "stupid hair and name", then go back in 5 years and get their results - while I cant prove it (I'm only going from my own experience) I suggest you'll find a trend 😉
Parents are the biggest influence, a child will suceed if the home attitude is good. Look for a school where the head want to create rounded members of society not just exam machines.
Universities themselves actually want to be able to take into account the background and education expereiance of kidsand offerlowr entry requirements to less well off and kids who wentto shit schools because they want the brightestkids not the ones wih the best grades, because they know who is likely to be most succesful
Took me 3 read throughs to follow that!
Universities have plenty of sway in their entry grades at present and always have, and always *were* able to pick the students most capable of achieving and offer them a place regardless. What they dont like is being forced to take students with low entry grades who clearly cant and wont achieve, just to make enough cash via student fees to pay for the decent ones. I've been watching this creep in slowly from the inside, for the past 5 or 6 years over a couple of institutions.
I have not read all of this. "Blade" is a great name.
Mike thats an interesting point of view, your sixth form right? When I was working at a Uni you could pick privately educated kids easily, confidance bordering on arrogance.
It is, again, a self-selecting sample - the kids whose parents are really, really arrogant wouldn't dream of sending tarquin to the state sixth form.
I went to Durham University, so I've met more than my fair share of arrogant public school boys and girls 🙂
As you say though high achieving kids from state schools tend to be brighter than kids achieving the same grades at private schools... What it tells us is that state schools arent as good.
Not always. I think they're better in some areas than in others. Private schools seem to tailor their programme of study to individual students much better than most state schools, so kids are taken out of subjects in which they're struggling and are given extra help in others. State schools have much more set from on high that they have to aim for, so often don't get that luxury.
Interestingly, a local secondary school which has gone from struggling to one of the best in the country takes a similar approach to letting students drop subjects, and has evening homework classes at the end of the schhol day much as many private schools have prep classes. Those students do brilliantly while at that school, but often struggle when they move higher up the education system because they lack independent learning skills.
If anyone wonders why kids go bad, then the fact that they are demonised by some, at the age of five, for having short hair or unconvential names might go some way to explaining things.
I have not read all of this. "Blade" is a great name.
Has someone suggested it on the baby name thread yet?
Coffeeking has a valid point and I think that there'll be more than a few on here that agree but would rather ride a singlespeed than admit it!
[i]Those students do brilliantly while at that school, but often struggle when they move higher up the education system because they lack independent learning skills. [/i]
A good point and agrees with my fathers experience.
If anyone wonders why kids go bad, then the fact that they are demonised by some, at the age of five, for having short hair or unconvential names might go some way to explaining things.
Not really demonised, but really it's down to the parents attitude and thought processes how the kids turn out. If you cant see the link between the parents naming/styling attitudes and their learning attitudes then fair enough, but I do. If I were in charge of teaching them I'd never inflict that view on them, it wouldnt be fair to pre-judge and treat them differently because there are exceptions to every rule and all need to be given the same chances, but I'd rather not risk my kids in a melting pot with more Blades than Pauls. Each to his own, thats what makes the world go round.
ridethelakes - I ride SS too 🙂
At the end of the day, you have to choose what you believe to be best for your child.
In my opinion/experience, if you can afford to send your kid to private school, they'll probably not come to any harm. But, if you have to scrimp and save to send them, they'll probably resent it (when all the other kids take their golden ponies skiing at Easter on the school trip and your kid stays at home), especially if you have to work extra hours to pay for it, so see them less.
A lot depends upon your child. My eldest (aged 5) is very studious and serious, and she'll do fine whatever school she goes to. My youngest (aged 3) likes jumping off stuff and thinks farts and mooning people are funny; she'll do brilliantly too, but we're more worried about the influence other kids could have on her at school. 🙂
Allow me the pleasure of introducing you to Blade... Laser... Blazer...
mike - very well put.
Not really demonised, but really it's down to the parents attitude and thought processes how the kids turn out. If you cant see the link between the parents naming/styling attitudes and their learning attitudes then fair enough, but I do.
That's also an argument in favour of it not mattering which school the child goes to or who else goes there 🙂
In response to the OP, yes you are being a massive snob. 😛
Have not read all the posts but for the OP. If you have found the school is not academically acheiving then you should go private.If however it is because you object to the kids names and the dodgy looking parents then you are being a snob. I think state school topped up with tutors and good support from the house would be best way to go.IMO
The simple facts are that if you go to a good private school your far more likely to become financially better off later in life irrespective of the education you get.
Hmm, that's not a useful statistic, due to other influencing factors. Only wealthier parents can afford to send their kids to private school. So that means that those kids success could be due to better educated parents perhaps passing on more knowledge, having more money spent on them out of school (ie private tuition, educational holidays etc etc) or the fact that wealthier parents might have higher powered jobs to discuss over the dinner table. If my parents had been entrepreneurs or business people then I might well have had the ambition and understanding to be one myself, hence making more money. Every kid knows a bit about their parents' line of work, don't they? Especially by age 16 or so.
A better comparison would be to compare the achievements/earnings of kids at private and state schools [i]from families with similar means or educational background[/i].
"Blade" is a brilliant name, although perhaps not for a human.
"Psycho" is also a great name, one of our goldfish is called that.
If we're judging people by names, I think the private school types have some dodgy names to rival even the most inventive of chavs.
Ticky, Tassy, Biff, Buff, Jocelyn (for a boy), Bunny, Xennan, Xav (probably short for Xavier), Jonty, Mehitablel, Malaika to name but a few of the 'upper crust people I've been acquainted with.
HTTP404 - we just did a similar thing.
We were at local primary, and had been determined to make it work. Heck I was even chair of finance for the governors...All the neighbors go, all the kids mates still go...
over the past three+ years, the school has failed to improve, if anything behavior and expectations of achievement were going down. This was brought up again and again by parents and at governors.
We just decided that we wanted out children to go to a school where they felt safer, and had higher expectations (of behavior mainly). We are third family to leave, and since our leaving (about a month ago), another 4 families have approached us and said they are trying to get out.
We managed to get them into a very small state infant school 3miles away, a feeder to a good juniors and (much better) secondary. We are VERY fortunate to have got the places - for 30 places each year there are usually 50+ applicants, many of whom are saving the cost of private edcation, and go private if they dont get in. We needed two places in two different years...
I have to say, the change has been everything we expected - not easy - but good. The boys behavior is being challenged - just basics like not shouting out, lining up neatly, being quiet around the school etc. They are already going on near weekly out of classroom trips. It says a lot that one of our lads went from 'top set' and one of the best behaved to being lowest set and being challenged on basic behavior...
I am an ex teacher myself, and it confirmed so much of what I know about our UK education system - it is two tier, it is academic results orientated (so missing the 'building block' of personal development and social skills), and it is dominated by the 'lowest common denominator' behavior and expectations wise (parents and staff).
I am glad we made the move, but running two cars and the extra time is a bind. What price a better start in life though?
I went to a prep school and then public schools (as in 2 of these [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headmasters%27_and_Headmistresses%27_Conference ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headmasters%27_and_Headmistresses%27_Conference[/url]). I didn't really fit in but did OK academically and left at 16 to go to a local college. I fitted in well enough despite the presence of girls.... There has been quite a lowering of prestige for most public schools in recent years; my Grandfather went to Harrow 100 years ago and that was a different experience to what it would be today. Good fee paying schools offer a lot more than an average state school does but better to enjoy one of those than to struggle in a fee paying one.
A better comparison would be to compare the achievements/earnings of kids at private and state schools from families with similar means or educational background.
That wouldnt be a fair comparison though as you'd just be looking at a minority of kids at a state school. But your main point is of course correct it may well not be the education (in school) at all, but statistics show if you wnt rich kids send em to private school.
Just because your kid starts at a mixed school doesnt mean they'll turn out rough/illiterate. After my Parents divorce I ended up at a primary school in Deighton (Fartown). Didnt harm me now did it?.........
statistics show if you wnt rich kids send em to private school.
I'm not sure that my child's future earning potential is the main factor I'd consider when choosing a school.
For reference, from my year group in my crappy (<30% getting 5C grades) secondary school, I and my friends are now a train driver, a GP, a (medical) consultant, an IT director (via accountancy in Cayman Islands) and a teacher (me). I earn slightly above the national average, and I'm the lowest paid of these.
My brothers and sisters who all went to the same crap school are now: teacher (me), joiner, sexual health charity worker, unemployed and petrol station attendant.
I'm not sure that my child's future earning potential is the main factor I'd consider when choosing a school.
Nor me, but then we are both teachers and not captains of industry! Dont get me wrong I think private education should be banned because of the points I'm making, whereas the captains of industry most likely think its a good thing for the same reasons.
Go and watch Crash .... might provoke a little thought.
I went to a school where they even let in black and asian kids, I never got stabbed once.
😛
Any private school isnt guarantee of a good education. Dont forget 'private' schools also fail, go bust and close. I know girls (great shags mind) who went to two such schools in Hudds that rolled over and closed. Both old schools are now converted into posh flats.
A couple I know called their daughter Trinity,he has his own business & their house is worth half a mill......
Yes you're being a snob......
As the OP on this thread and just got back from a lunchtime football session, I'm amazed to see the number of replies. Haven't had time to catch-up on all the replies but will do in due course.
I've been interested to read comments by coffeeking and miketually.
As a parent I want the best for my children. I'll do what I have to do and can do to ensure my children get the best from life. If my children achieve academically, then they will have better choice later in life. Academically, the school achieves OK, and has a good ofsted report. It's not the [i]whole[/i] school at fault - it's probably a minority but nevertheless a significant percentage. My child would *probably* progress even more from closer tuition and calmer influences at a better school. We lost out on our 1st choice school. Private schooling is now an option. Another is a waiting list at another local school. Children are easily influenced in their early years of education and this is the worry.
Yes, from my OP I probably am being a snob (well, I did ask) but if wanting better for your children when your parental instinct tells you so makes me one - then so be it.
And to reaffirm "Blade Trinity" on a DVD - yes. Not on brother and sister birth certificates. And incidently the mother looks like Vicky Pollard.
A couple I know called their daughter Trinity,he has his own business & their house is worth half a mill......
I bet they made their money through IT, eh?
statistics show if you wnt rich kids send em to private school.
No, statistics show that if you've got rich kids they get sent to private school.
Molgrips was spot-on about the problems with this type of statistic.