[Closed] Am I being a snob?

"No, statistics show that if you've got rich kids they get sent to private school."

I'm sure stats show both, stats remember dont show cause and effect

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/5157598.stm

I'd like to look at how they did this study.

Well, me and Mrs Grips were considering home-schooling.. how's that for controversial?

Well, me and Mrs Grips were considering home-schooling.. how's that for controversial?

I only know family who home school. They're, erm, a little unusual...

I'm sure stats show both, stats remember dont show cause and effect

Yes, my point was that the same figures will undoubtedly show what I said as well as what you said.

It's not a chicken-and-egg dilemma really though.

I mean, which came first? The rich kids or the schools for rich people to send their kids to?

It's pretty obviously the rich kids, in case I'd left any doubt.

I didn't go to private school. I went to public school.

And look where I ended up: the North.

So, it's not all a bed of roses people.

Well, me and Mrs Grips were considering home-schooling.. how's that for controversial?

This option has the added bonus that you can cut their hair with the pudding bowl and there won't be any other children to bully them over it.

yeah you sound like one. Dont judge a book by its cover

(to help out the confused, I'm quoting from the first page having only just started reading this thread)

ourmaninthenorth - Member
I didn't go to private school. I went to public school.

I say!
Yah!

A couple I know called their daughter Trinity,he has his own business & their house is worth half a mill

Wun Hun Dred!

I think anyone who is happy with themselves and their life will defend their own upbringing and see it as the best way to go, so there is no all-encompassing right or wrong answer.

I got to see both sides of the education system, starting out in a normal inner city primary school where I was already one of the poorer kids to getting a scholarship for one of the best private schools in the country. After the initial bedding in period of getting posh people to understand what I was saying, I had just as great a time in secondary school as I had in primary. I think this was perfect for me, as I would never have got the grades I achieved at the comprehensive I would have gone to, due to being a lazy git. I would say that my school in particular excelled in extracurricular activities, which I think is a major contributor to that public school boy confidence (Arrogance?) that everyone is aware of. So in summary, I reckon you're better off having both types of schooling if you can get it as there's more to be gained than just grades.

As a comparison I have a sister who is doing very well in the retail world, a brother in the civil service and another sister who got knocked up at 18. I'm the only one who got any private education and went to university so I'd say it's not the be all and end all.

Plus yes, the original poster sounds like a snob to me and I've met my fair share!

Schooled at a comp... graduated from Oxford University... earn **** all! 😀

I went to a private school, my wife went to a state school; I want my kids to go to a state school, she wants them to go private.

We looked at private school costs and calculated it would cost £25Ok to put our 2 children through from 7 to 18 years based on todays prices. That would stretch us and compromise what we could financial do in our family/leisure time and therefore utimately the costs outweighed the benefits. We were very disappointed with the schools in our area and this is why we looked at the private school costs.

Instead we moved areas to where we are happy with the schools and the area in general. It is costing us as we haven't sold our house in our previous area and are renting in the new area but we are much happier in the new area and the costs are still far less than private school costs.

Having said that at the end of the day there is only so much that parents can do to find a school, private or state, their children will be happy and successful at as there are so many variables to consider...the child, the teachers, the other children etc etc

nukeproof - that's an option we could be looking into for a couple of years time (middle schools).

I'm probably going to open a can of worms but middle-class family church attendance is pretty good in our area due to a very good performing church sec'y school. Admission based on church attendance and commitment 😀

[i]nstead we moved areas to where we are happy with the schools and the area in general. It is costing us as we haven't sold our house in our previous area and are renting in the new area but we are much happier in the new area and the costs are still far less than private school costs.[/i]

How much extra mortgage interest + associated costs will you have to pay over the lifetime of the mortgage vs the cost of private schooling?

If that works in your favour, then it sounds like a good option.

I'd send any children to public school for the excellent life experience (n/w/standing TJ's baseless assertions), but I suspect Mrs North's "I went to a compa and look at my PhD" argument will likely win out. Good for the bank balance, bad for the kids who will only get six week summer holidays....

I agree with TJ, there is *no* evidence that private education is generally "better".

Like miketually said, rather than pay for unecessary education, use the cash to give your kid(s) some fun life experiences, which incidently you won't be able to if you give all your cash to some private school.

[i]lunchtime football session[/i]

COMMONER!!!!! STONE HIM!

[i]How much extra mortgage interest + associated costs will you have to pay over the lifetime of the mortgage vs the cost of private schooling? [/i]

I see your point but the house will either be rented out or sold so it is a short to medium term cost...the costs are still less than the £2k per month for our 2 kids to be in private and the duration will be far less than the 11 years they'd be in private.

[i]nukeproof - that's an option we could be looking into for a couple of years time (middle schools).[/i]

Took as about 2 years to figure out what to do for the best: many late nights and bottles of wine plus endless time on the internet. Good luck!

[i]I'm probably going to open a can of worms but middle-class family church attendance is pretty good in our area due to a very good performing church sec'y school. Admission based on church attendance and commitment [:D] [/i]

When we first moved to our previous area the secondary school we had planned was exceptionally good but the catchment changed and we were right on the edge. We *may* have got in if we had attended church, volunteered for other church duties, helped out at the Sunday school etc etc but, although parents blatantly do do it, we felt uncomfortable with doing it as we are both not that religious. I suspect we would have ended up resenting volunteering and attending every week when really we didn't want to be there.

How much extra mortgage interest + associated costs will you have to pay over the lifetime of the mortgage vs the cost of private schooling?

If you really want to game the system, you only have to live close to the 'good' school for long enough to get your eldest into it. Once your eldest is in, you can move back to somewhere cheaper and your younger kids are pretty much guaranteed to get into the school.

Schooled at a comp... graduated from Oxford University... earn **** all

sorry nukeproof, I wasn't clear.

I meant, having moved house (and assuming you have solkd your existing house), how much extra interest etc. will you be paying on your new mortgage over its lifetime as against the old one?

As I understand - and I'm not a parent - moving to an area with a good school, for which there is competition for places, will have generally have higher house prices than ares where the schools are less good. My logic being that, if you pay more for your house, you pay more for your mortgage, which in turn might be direted towards schooling costs.

To be honest, I left school in 1995 and for the 10 years that I had been in private education up to that point (I arrived in the system aged 8, having spent 3 years in a primary school of 35 to a class), I believe my parents only paid - and then at a reduced rate - when I was at prep school, as I had a scholarship at public school. So, I haven't much idea of the costs these days (other than knowing that fees have generally increased at bonkers rates across the years) for pre-prep, prep and public (or independent day) schools. Is it really £12k pa at prep school these days? Blimey!

Another point on costs, though, is that where I was at public school, only around 1/3 of the pupils were there on full fees. If you were half bright and your parents skint (my case) then there were bursaries, exhibitions and scholarships. Depends on the school, though: my sis left her school because the folks were brassic - the school only wanted people who would shell out the full whack.

At the school that my kids attend there's a Chelsea, Storm, Brad and Angelina. Dare say you'd find equally daft names in the local Private school. 😉

Another point on costs

Another point on costs would be the cost of the uniform and all the sport kit, which will soon mount up.

At Cambridge, it used to be that people who got there from state schools got on average something like 1 class higher in their degree. A big significant difference.

So the answer is, thanks to universities imperfect admission policies - paying lots of money can make your kids more likely to get into a good university. But it doesn't make them actually any cleverer once they get there.

But if you want to engineer it so your kids don't have to meet poor kids, then private school is great for that.

Joe

[i]...but I also went to a better university[/i]

Get in line, tab 😈

(only joking - never gave a stuff for such things... 🙂 )

At Cambridge, it used to be that people who got there from state schools got on average something like 1 class higher in their degree.

Move to Scotland, our schools are generally better all round, particularly In the really remote areas where you could get a whole school roll smaller than yer average class elsewhere. 😉

Another point on costs would be the cost of the uniform and all the sport kit, which will soon mount up.

Sure. But presumably, state schools also have uniforms, no? And if kids play aport - which I admit is compulsory at independent schools - wouldn't they also need sports kit?

[i]Move to Scotland, our schools are generally better[/i]

you have a good source of funding.

HTTP404 - Member
Move to Scotland, our schools are generally better

you have a good source of funding.

Yeah, thanks for that. 🙂

Want your kid to go to uni/rich? Change schools asap and have good genes/parent skills.

Why do you want your kid to go to uni, at the minute it's a dubious choice to take on the debt with poor job prospects?

In response to the first post, send your kids where ever you want. Good kids will do well where ever there are advantages to both state and private education. I don't think you are being a snob I think you're being a parent and it's natural to want the best for your kid.

Hi Http404,

I feel for your problem, I don't think you are a snob, you just want the best for your kid. Our 1st child didn't go to nursery (grief from friends and family) and then went to a good Primary in a good area (North West, not far from Rivvy). She was picked on and then ignored by teachers, badly treated, so we took her out of that school (grief from friends, family, the education and my mum -who had been a primary head for twenty years- because the 'head' was retiring and us leaving left a 'blot' on his record!) then put her in another school that had a good rep; cue 2 years of bullying and confrontations that went nowhere, so we took her out.

We have home-educated her since then, she is now twelve and very happy, has a younger sister and brother, all home-educated too. There are a lot of resources on the internet, and many other families in this country that home-educate, in our area there are at least two internet networks of home-edders, and our kids have plenty of great friends of their own age and above and below. One of the best things about it is that the kids mix so naturally despite widely-rangeing age groups, there are none of the cliques that blight schools, and nobody gets left out.

OK, I'm not saying that it would work for everybody, but I am saying that there is an alternative that works for a lot of people. I hope that it works out Ok for you.

Best,

LJ.

I used to teach a Cortnee and a Skyie.

Johnny, sounds awesome. Me and the Mrs have been fantasizing al day about how our childhoods would have been if we'd been home educated, and how cool it could be for our kid.

There is more to schooling than acedemic results.

irony, anyone?

HTTP404 - Member
nukeproof - that's an option we could be looking into for a couple of years time (middle schools).

I'm probably going to open a can of worms but middle-class family church attendance is pretty good in our area due to a very good performing church sec'y school. Admission based on church attendance and commitment

Hypocrites, I can't stand them, if you believe then yes, exploit it maybe, if not leave it.
If you believe then your conscious is clear, if you don't then what sort of message are you sending to your children?, I'm dead sure they will hear you discuss it at some point, intentional or not.

FWIW, I moved in to a 'cheap house' (and I do hate it), in an expensive area, to get the best schooling (as I see it) for my kids.
I'm sure I'm wrong in so many ways, but to me it made sense, I could never afford to send both my kids to 'private school', & I'm sure as hell I would never send just one.

Good luck, & please don't feel pressured from a bunch of people you have never met (me included obviously) into making a decision that will effect the rest of your children's lives.

Take care out there.

Instead of projecting your own fear/inadequacies, why not trust in your kids' abilities? Cream rises! 🙂

HTTP404, if you are a snob, then so am I. Totally with you on this one. You cannot choose who your kids become friends with and maybe I am being out of order, but I will do as much as I can to ensure that my kids grow up without mixing with the chav undeclass that is destroying this country.

I have two great kids and live in a good area and work bloody hard to give them the best upbringing I can. My house is too small, but to move to a bigger property I would be compromising too much as far as I'm concerned.

I am fortunate that my son (nearly 8) is mixing with good kids from good homes with intelligent parents. Long may it continue.

I am ready to now be flamed by the STW massive, and yes, I probably am a snob full of stereotypical opinions of the stereotypes you speak of, but then so be it.

I would be thinking exactly what you are thinking. Right or wrong? - I don't know, but as a parent you can only do what you feel is 'right'.

(Ducks for cover)

PS. Not sure where that smiley face came from?

Should read 'nearly 8'

Molgrips,

I think being home schooled would have worked for me too, but not with my parents, even with one being a teacher, they wouldn't have the patience for it, bless 'em.

It's a huge commitment, and a serious legal one too, also for it to work properly I reckon at least one of the parents has to stay home, or both be on flexible working arrangements. I work from home, so, it works for us, as I said before. not for everybody, but we love it. Nothing is perfect though, and teaching something we mainly take for granted, like reading and writing, can be fraught...wouldn't change a minute of it though.

BTW - By legal commitment I meant that when you opt out, you take on a legal responsibility to supply your child with an education, and they will check that you are doing that.

Best,

LJ.

Interesting reading the different views on this subject, it's obviously very emotive.

We've got a few years before we have to make the decision ourselves. I went to a comprehensive school, Mrs Mefster went had private schooling. We both have achieved similar academic results to degree level and have 'got where we wanted to get'.

I feel that we'd have both pretty much achieved the same at either state or private school, as we were well motivated through school, and most importantly had fantastic parental support. I honestly believe that the parental support and encouragement outweighs any other variable.

Plenty of my friends at school were less focused, messed around much more than I did and maybe didn't achieve their full potential. I think that for the more easily distracted child, the discipline and expected academic 'work ethic' at a private school would possible enable them to achieve more.

A big difference I can see is the extra-curricular oportunities and sports. At my comprehensive school there was a great reduction in the oportunity for activities that took much time outside school hours (cricket, outdoor pursuits, etc.) as this relied on the teachers time and goodwill. Speaking to my wife, private school offered much wider opportunities. Even our local grammar school does not always fully encourage pupils who excel to fulfil their sporting potential, lacking the flexibility needed for coaching and international competition.

We've got the option locally of state school, non-fee paying grammar school or private options. I think if we are lucky enough to be in a financial position for private schooling without sacrificing other important aspects of family life, we'll do it. But I'd like to think that if we're not, with good parental support, our little man we be able to fulfil his potential wherever he studies.

TJ - what school was that then? You may have said already, but i aint reading through all the pish.

Just to chuck in my twopeneth,

My wife is a Primary school teacher at state school. She has a number of teacher friends who have moved from State to Private because of their dissatisfaction at the ever increasing workload, which has nothing to do with actual teaching and everything to do with the monitoring and recording, and justifying their existence. Look at any profession whereby the state has overall control and you will see less "doing", and a lot more "monitoring". It is getting a lot worse - look at the Police. More bobbies than ever before and most are hiding in offices bean counting, rather than walking around the community with their big hats on.

Last year she had to teach a year 5 class of 40 children. Now this in a leafy lane shires village school, with a decent reputation. None of the kids are "bad" enough to attract extra funding through the SEN register, so she had to cope on her own with a non-teaching assistant.

With all the best will in the world, these kids were not getting the right amount of 1:1 they needed. The differentiation she had to build into every lesson was staggering, and as a result the children did not progress as much as their parents expected. Without going too far into the detail, the year 4 teacher had been a little generous in her assessment, so some of the kids actually appeared to go backwards in their autumn term assessments. This is not a unique position - its fairly common throughout state schooling.

Discussing this with her colleagues who have gone into Private education, the ridiculous amount of justifying and monitoring along with ever increasing class sizes are the most commonly cited reasons for switching. When a Private school has a maximum class size of 20 its basic math to realise the teacher/pupil contact time is going to be far better in the smaller size. If you refer to any of the teaching unions statistics, and anecdotal evidence from both teachers and parents, it is well documented that class size is one of, if not the most important factor with regrd to quality education.

So, if you want a good education the main thing to look for is small class sizes. It is a sad fact that private shools have much smaller class sizes, therefore the children at these will have a better education than those at state school.

One thing to add is that the "quality" of education when comparing state to private shouldn't be that far different, given that most Private schools are staffed by former State school teachers. I am told that it is a rarity for a Private school to employ someone who hasn't served their time in State schools.

I have thought about this a fair bit. My comments about education earlier were more about the general case rather than this specific.

The local schools you kids have places for - check 'em out carefully. Go and have a chat with the head teacher. Look at stuff such as facilities and extra curricular activities. Then compare this to the fee paying school you are considering.

Have a think about your children. Do they need to socialise with other kids from all backgrounds to ensure their social development or are they the sort of kids to whom this would make little difference? Are they bold and confident or timid and need support?

Have a think about the cost of the feepaying school and consider what else you could do with / for the kids for that money. Are the broad educational opportunities that you could provide with that money (holidays, coaching, sports lessons etc) an opportunity to give them more experience? would that money you would spend on fees if spent elsewhere do more for your childs development?

Only the parents can make this decision. I feel very strongly that you need to look at their total education / development not just the acedemic side of it and that you must be clear about your own motives for what you decide.

As said earlier - cream always rises. Kids will do however well they do in any enviroment and it certainly is true that kids from feepaying schools tend to do less well at university compared to kids from state schools in comparison to their A level results. ( a result of the kids from state schools having to learn more self study skills)

Good luck - but IMO this decision is not as crucial as it may seem.