bainbrge - Member
Thanks for the advice CaptJon, but I didn't have to do a proper analysis, someone else did it for me! Plagiarism is a terrible thing, however all the numbers are from the ONS.I tried to amend to remove the political BS for you though:
Nice try...
On a serious note, public sector spending increased by more than 50% over the term of the last labour government (£451bn to £688bn at constant 2010-11 prices).
Last term or all three terms of the last Labour govt? And you left out the important caveat that the figures include the stimulus package Darling and Brown instigated to soften the impact of the recession.
In 1999 the government spent £343bn, which would have been £440bn by 2009/10 had it only increased by inflation. Instead it had reached £670bn.
What happened to the £451bn figure? A fuller picture could be had if you included the change in govt receipts and the change in GDP.
The extra spending arguably did nothing to improve the provision or efficiency of public services in general, in fact ONS evidence suggests the opposite.
Not all of it was spent on public services, though, was it?
The extra spending simply expanded the public sector at the expense of everyone else, and was funded through labours profligate borrowing and stealth taxes.
Simply? Come on, you can do better than that.
The spending was done for the sole purpose of buying voters by increasing the size of the labour voting public sector. And because the labour government thought that everyone had entitlements but no obligations.
So was it simply to expand the public sector, or to by votes? Or to spend money on entitlements?
What you want to mention is the changes in receipts and spending in the first term, when the budget was in surplus as Brown kept to Clarke's spending plans. But then that could be countered by Osborne and Cameron saying they'd would stick to Darling's. And the fact Osborne praised the model of economic growth Ireland followed... well, until it all went bang. Someone would then probably mention selling gold, TJ or Ernie would counter with not knowing what future prices would do. Someone might then point out all the extra money the 3G licences brought in. And depending on the balance of posters, Brown's leadership at the height of the credit crunch would be cited - either as a good thing, or as a bad thing.
but then that can be countered
Plagiarism is a terrible thing, however all the numbers are from the ONS.
And your plagiarised article conveniently omitted to mention the absolutely critical and vital fact that the UK was exposed to the worse global recession since the 1930s ?
[i]"In 1999 the government spent £343bn, which would have been £440bn by 2009/10 had it only increased by inflation. Instead it had reached £670bn."[/i]
The difference in 2009/10 was that the UK was desperate to dig itself out of recession - hadn't you noticed that ?
The private sector was in deep recession so the government pumped money into the public sector, had they not done so, the economy would have been well and truly ****ed - for [u]all[/u] of us. How do you think unemployment only managed to climb to 2.5 million ?
We signed up to x and have now had it changed to y
Get used to it like everyone else.
You're not ring-fenced from the crap that your employers created.
STFU
And we are both doing jobs that not one of you private sector people could do
And you have the proof to back this up?
Get used to it like everyone else
Or try to do something about it, it's better than being ring fenced.
You're not ring-fenced from the crap that your employers created.
I know some banks are under public ownership, but the banks don't own the public sector... although having said that...
It's fundamentally difficult to measure productivity in the public sector
Not really, you can use exactly the same measure as the private sector should be using, how much time are you carrying out value added work vs non-value added work. In NHS terms doing something directly to imropove patient health be that laboratory work, operations, health screening or talking therapies to name a few activities, non value added activities are thing such as moving around, most paperwork, sitting on your backside doing nothing, being off sick a lot. Exactly the same as the private sector.
True efficency is not about cost cutting, it is about cost reduction so that the resources you employ add more value and generete less waste (as in muda not bin bags full of).
Perhaps one of the hard done to strikers can look after my son whilst school is shut yet again
CaptJon I apologise I won't have time to answer your specific challenges, except to the extent covered in answering Ernie's challenge below. However there is a useful paper (i.e. one i plagiarised) on this matter at:
I think chapter 4 covers this area and is well worth a skim read (I think so anyway).
Ernie - I think you are conflating a number of different things there, especially in your last paragraph:
1. Are you trying to imply that the public spending increase I highlighted was as a result of the financial crisis, and didn't occur steadily over the labour government?
2. when you say the government pumped money into the public sector, are you talking about the bail out of the banks or something else? I can't think of any Keynesian attempt to stimulate the economy with public spending in 2010 at all? Quantitative easing wouldn't feature in the spending numbers I quoted (it doesn't increase debt)
3. the (main) reason unemployment didn't rise was because the private sector sucked down part time working and half weeks to avoid redundancies.
Tazzy - you really do seem rather angry these days - and you claimto be well rounded on another thread. resorting to insults? shows the poverty of your argument
edited out the rest of it
Not really, you can use exactly the same measure as the private sector should be using, how much time are you carrying out value added work vs non-value added work.
But, the public sector has historically not measured these things. From memory of working at a PCT in the early 2000's, they were only just implementing a methodoloy whereby they calculated the unit cost of hospital treatments.
As TJ implied, a lot of the outputs of the public sector are inherently difficult to attach a number to.
Or try to do something about it
Yeah like strike and screw the country even more, great idea. Well done, they should make you a moderator you're so clever.
Tazzy - you really do seem rather angry these days - and you claimto be well rounded on another thread. resorting to insults? shows the poverty of your argument
edited out the rest of it
So that'll be no proof then
£35 per hour!
M6ttf
Do you know any private sector skilled experienced dementia care specialist nurses on this forum? or legal qualified welfare counsellors with up to date knowledge of the benefits system?
not some cosseted little fluffy bunny world of easy rides like you tossbags have had
STFU
Well done, they should make you a moderator you're so clever.
Some of these public sector bashers obviously attended Swiss finishing school.....right little charmers.
Possibly a yes to the 2nd one TJ 🙂
You're definitely underpaid for that level of expertise. I earn more than that and don't even have a degree, no pension though 😉
Yeah like strike and screw the country even more, great idea. Well done, they should make you a moderator you're so clever.
Ah good come back. So looks like you begrudge people fighting for something, you must let your employer walk all over you.
bainbrge - Member
CaptJon I apologise I won't have time to answer your specific challenges, except to the extent covered in answering Ernie's challenge below. However there is a useful paper (i.e. one i plagiarised) on this matter at:I think chapter 4 covers this area and is well worth a skim read (I think so anyway).
Thanks for the link. I started reading chapter 4, but i started feeling nauseous. For someone who insists on using a Dr prefix, he doesn't right very academically, nor does he back up many of his assertions (that i could make out from a brief look): far too many uses words like 'bungled' for my taste.
Here's a nice picture:
Why is this so bickery? If you're in the private sector and public sector want to strike, then fine deal with it! I just don't get it?
Are we jealous?
Maybe People are just too selfish, we value our own convinience over others welfare?
( can I exclude tube drivers who are a set of profiteering wazzock pants! )
Maybe People are just too selfish, we value our own convinience over others welfare?
Bingo. 😀
just had a rite arguement with my missus ( well i say missus, she just asked me to leave !!) about this.
i agree with poster on this one.
i agree with poster on this one.
Which one? I will not rest until I know which one!! Damn you!
And which one did your missus agree with ?
And which one did your missus agree with ?
I hope it was me, is she fit?
she is a nurse !! and her family work for the council
and i PAY the mortgage, so im staying
i PAY the mortgage, so im staying
I admire your confidence 😉
For someone who insists on using a Dr prefix, he doesn't right very academically
Thankyou, that made me smile 🙂
😆STFU
Thats a cheap shot. or is it cheep. 😉
or legal qualified welfare counsellors with up to date knowledge of the benefits system?
So, if we simplify the benefits system, she could be out of a job, yes?
I really can't understand why some private sector workers want to see public sector workers get shafted just like "we" have over the last 30 years.
I really can't understand why some private sector workers want to see public sector workers get shafted just like "we" have over the last 30 years.
Nail on the head, there couldn't possibly be any other reason in this overly complicated discussion, could there?
Zulu-Eleven - have you found any evidence to back your claim that :
[i]"a number of areas of civil service & local government recruitment has shown that the chief factor in selection was not quality, but ability to tick a minority box"[/i]
or are you still looking ?
CaptJon I apologise I won't have time to answer your specific challenges, except to the extent covered in answering Ernie's challenge below. However there is a useful paper (i.e. one i plagiarised) on this matter at:
>I think chapter 4 covers this area and is well worth a skim read (I think so anyway).
Of course, Tullet-Prebon, being one if the world's largest money exchangers (i.e. bank), would have an entirely unbiased opinion on these matters. I would tend not to skim read such articles and question their credibilty before using it as a quote. It's basically utter buncum that seeks to divert attention from the out and out greed in global banking. Greed that has created the global recession, and not the pension schemes of a few public sector workers.
Ernie - to quote TJ:
So if we know its there but can't prove it it didn't happen 🙄
😉
Crikey. 😆
So you couldn't find any then ?
Fair enough.......no surprise there.
Ernie
Thats not the point - you are claiming as we cannot show a direct casual link then it didn't happen.We cannot show a direct casual link between an individuals lung cancer and their smoking - however we know its there.
😆
I hated my time in public sector. I didn't get the job based on skills, passing the silly exams did the job. When I was there there was the status quo and nobody would change that. Everyone was grey. Everyone was very dull.
There were some very bright people there and no mistake, some real geniouses and there were the odd characters who had a bit more panaz, I'm friends with a few still but generally nipping down the paper shop on a Sunday was the height of excitement for them.
One guy told me he used to be into cycling but then one day he was riding up a hill and thought, 'sod that, it's too much like hard work' and never rode a bike again. Which pretty much summed up my experiences in the public sector.
(Obviously this only applies to the little part I had contact with)
RichPenny - Member
I earn more than that and don't even have a degree
People think a degree is a right to riches, your entitled to earn more if you have a degree.
Thats not the point - you are claiming as we cannot show a direct casual link then it didn't happen.We cannot show a direct casual link between an individuals lung cancer and their smoking - however we know its there
Why are you quoting someone else to me Zulu-Eleven ?
To cover your embarrassment ?
BTW, did you see your political guru Dan Hannan on Question Time tonight ?
🙄
What's the rolling eyes for Z-11 ? It's unusually for you to be lost for words.
So anyway tell me, why are you quoting someone else to me ? If it's not to cover your embarrassment, why are you doing it ?
Do you know any private sector skilled experienced dementia care specialist nurses on this forum? or legal qualified welfare counsellors with up to date knowledge of the benefits system?
A lot of families look after their elderly relatives simply out of love or a sense of duty. As with raising children, experience helps, but I suspect most of us have the relevant skills.
Information on benefit entitlements is available on the internet, and I am fairly certain there is a calculator / test exercise. I've helped a few people by sense checking tax credit forms, and while you need to review what you are claiming regularly, its not that complicated.
dmjb4
That is simply laughable.
Now I'm starting to feel sorry for dmjb4 😐
That won't do ernie. Getting soft in your dotage? I know a man who can help
Will he do it simply out of love and a sense of duty ?
enfht - Member
Or try to do something about it
Yeah like strike and screw the country even more, great idea. Well done, they should make you a moderator you're so clever.
After the strike, why don't you let the kids stay at home and [b]YOU[/b] go to school?
dmjb4 has a point though, take my job for example anyone who has got their first aid badge when they were in Cubs can do it. Then read up a bit on the internet, plus they once put a Mr Bump plaster on their brother. Best of all they did it for free.
Can't speak for the public sector in general but the NHS certainly knows how to throw a lot of resource at projects.
We sell and deploy [non clinical] equipment into all sorts of businesses including half a dozen NHS trusts.
A simple project update meeting will normally inc 2 from our side and 2 from the client's side, unless it's an NHS trust.
They tend to come in mob handed, 5,6 or 7 of them for a simple update, the assistants seem to have assistants. If the meeting is at our office, it'll often be a night out for them too.
It's also quite off-putting that they'll often send a totally different team to subsequent meetings
The contrast is really quite startling between delivering into an NHS trust Vs a normal business.
They aren't very keen on post project parties though 🙂
TandemJeremy - Member
M6ttf
Do you know any private sector skilled experienced dementia care specialist nurses on this forum? or legal qualified welfare counsellors with up to date knowledge of the benefits system?
POSTED 9 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
Question with a question?
I asked you to provide proof that no one in the private sector could carry out your (or your saintly other half) duties as well as you.
Can't speak for the public sector in general but the NHS certainly knows how to throw a lot of resource at projects.
We sell and deploy [non clinical] equipment into all sorts of businesses including half a dozen NHS trusts.
A simple project update meeting will normally inc 2 from our side and 2 from the client's side, unless it's an NHS trust.
They tend to come in mob handed, 5,6 or 7 of them for a simple update, the assistants seem to have assistants. If the meeting is at our office, it'll often be a night out for them too.
It's also quite off-putting that they'll often send a totally different team to subsequent meetings
The contrast is really quite startling between delivering into an NHS trust Vs a normal business.
They aren't very keen on post project parties though
I found quite the opposite when I worked for the NHS, travel and overnights were scrutinised fiercely, in fact it was too much and quite a pain in the arse.
As for meetings, any private sector company could save a fortune in middle management time costs just by removing powerpoint off their PC's.
You would end up swapping guns every five minutes and being shot!!
Watching Weaponology on Quest. I think I'd go for the M4 carbine.
I found quite the opposite when I worked for the NHS, travel and overnights were scrutinised fiercely, in fact it was too much and quite a pain in the arse.
To be fair, it is quite rare for them to come to us
The turning up 'mob handed' statement still stands mind and I've not seen a PP presentation for a few years now 🙂
My experience of the NHS (over 12 years) was gross but easily recifiable inefficiency.
When I started training as a nurse in the mid nineties I worked weekends at a BUPA hospital; everytime we changed a dressing it had to be costed- how many swabs, how many saline pods etc so a precise costing could be given to the patient.
When I left the NHS in 2008 it was still the case that ward nurses knew very little of the cost of anything they used, a requesition was filled in and things arrived.
When I began working for a major wound care company I subsequently found out that a dressing we routinely cut in half on ICU when the right size wasn't available cost £60, so that was £30 wasted there and then (once opened dressings become unsterile and useless to others).
While I'm not suggesting nursres become accountants, I never really saw waste being taken seriously in the NHS with regards to those who actually accounted for a large portion of it.
Flame away
Ben - weird because back in the 90s we went to individual ward budgetting with costs of everything available and known - indeed the process started in the 80s.
I certainly knew where to get the price of everything from and we had comparisons of spending between wards in the early 90s.
When I left the NHS in 2008 it was still the case that ward nurses knew very little of the cost of anything they used, a requesition was filled in and things arrived.When I began working for a major wound care company I subsequently found out that a dressing we routinely cut in half on ICU when the right size wasn't available cost £60, so that was £30 wasted there and then (once opened dressings become unsterile and useless to others).
Why would, or even should, a nurse give one consideration of the cost of a swab or dressing, or anything for that matter? This is the job of managers. If I was to be unfortunate to find myself in ITU I would like to think the staff there would use whatever they have, and not be constantly thinking "mmm, this costs a bit more than that one, should I use it or not???"
Flame away
OK.
Despite your own personal research in the matter, extensive research by others has shown that the British NHS is one of the most cost efficient healthcare system in the world. And in fact private healthcare provisions in the US are the least cost efficient in the world.
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/aug/07/nhs-among-most-efficient-health-services ]NHS among developed world's most efficient health systems, says study[/url]
[i]"Not only was the UK cheaper, says the paper, it saved more lives. The NHS reduced the number of adult deaths a million of the population by 3,951 a year – far better than the nearest comparable European countries. France managed 2,779 lives a year and Germany 2,395."[/i]
A little more research required on your part maybe ?
TJ, I wouldn't dispute that band 6 and ward managers, those involved in the ordering process, were aware of costs and made attempts to save money through product choice.
I'm talking about staff nurses being unaware of the cost of products and how seemingly small things, a dressing dropped here and there, sterile gloves, poor selection of NIV mask at £60 a time, very quickly add up
A little more research required on your part maybe ?
I've not done any research Ernie, I'm talking about experiences, things I saw with my own eyes.
And I'm not slating the NHS, I'm saying it could be more efficient than it is
I've not done any research Ernie
Ah, that explains it then.
Here's another research from a year earlier :
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10375877 ]UK health system is top on 'efficiency', says report[/url]
Probably best to go by the opinions of those who have researched the subject rather than those who haven't ?
Ben - thats down to poor management locally. The information was available and was used where I worked right down the levels. Indeed cost controls were tight
Cheers for a sensible response TJ
Probably best to go by the opinions of those who have researched the subject rather than those who haven't ?
Ernie, is there a particular reason that my 12 years in the NHS and the things I observed are not valid in your eyes?
Well yes, because you haven't, by your own admission, done any research into the matter.
Your "could be more efficient" claim is a complete red herring. Is there a single area of human activity where there [i]couldn't[/i] be any improvements ? I can't think of any.
Your "could be more efficient" claim is a complete red herring. Is there a single area of human activity where there couldn't be any improvements ? I can't think of any.
Drinking beer in the Speedwell Bar.
I hate all this bickering.
I hate the idea that people are going on strike when negotiations are on-going, I would have liked to have seen the strike called once there was some final agreement made, not before, a kind of pre-emptive strike strike.
A school near me has had the teachers go on strike because they are switching to an academy and they fear there might be changes to their contracts.
Surely its best to see what any changes are before going on strike.
I think the whole situation is reminiscent of the 70's and the end result of all that is a few years later a new government comes in and is set on an agenda of breaking union power.
I see if this carries on a future conservative government coming in hell bent on breaking the public setor unions.
I would have liked to have seen the strike called once there was some final agreement made
I've never heard of a strike being called after an agreement had been reached. What's the idea of that then ?
I've never heard of a strike being called after an agreement had been reached. What's the idea of that then ?
To learn 'em good and proper for.... 🙄
If you call a strike that affects other people then you are not going to be highly thought of and all apathy will be eroded.
In general the issue for most non governmental workers come back to the pension arrangements as everyone pays for them. I am a company accountant and I have worked on final/defined benefit schemes and when you review them you sit back and say 'shit iceberg right ahead'. If we do not grasp then nettle now we will be crippled in generations ahead.
Basically, I dont see the point of going on strike when you dont know what the final offer is.
As there is an on going negotiation I find the strike is premature
So people shouldn't go on strike until they've agreed the terms of whatever they're striking against?
That's as good as the 'unions should be impartial' rubbish on the other thread!
No what Im saying is that whilst youre negotiating a deal I dont think you should be going on strike, its not helping matters and simply entrenches both sides.
Same as government saying thats the last offer etc, none of it helps and just enflames the problem.
If negotiations break down and the "final offer" is unacceptable then you have something to consider whether you want to accept it or not and go on strike.
The government has been attacking the public sector since it came to power, and then criticising any defense. I'm surprised strike action has taken this long.
I think its fair to say that ernie is in an argumentative mood.
Despite the fact I saw repeated acts that 'I' deemed as being wasteful, because I failed to write a research paper on them my experiences are null and void, apparently inadmissible in a discussion.
Is there a single area of human activity where there couldn't be any improvements ?
No there isn't, and that is why despite your paper showing the NHS to be very efficient, it could be more so; that is not a 'red herring'.
Basically, I dont see the point of going on strike when you dont know what the final offer is.
As there is an on going negotiation I find the strike is premature
I think you'll find then that the first offer will be the final offer.
When I began working for a major wound care company I subsequently found out that a dressing we routinely cut in half on ICU when the right size wasn't available cost £60, so that was £30 wasted there and then (once opened dressings become unsterile and useless to others).
Given the number of dressings used in hospitals, might it not be cheaper to buy a lot of the biggest dressings and cut them to size rather than smaller numbers of the small, medium and large? I work in a clinical department, and that's what we do. It's cheaper, which is why we do it.
the first offer is very rarely the final offer, as has been seen already the government has moved from its initial position.
Given the number of dressings used in hospitals, might it not be cheaper to buy a lot of the biggest dressings and cut them to size rather than smaller numbers of the small, medium and large? I work in a clinical department, and that's what we do. It's cheaper, which is why we do it.
That would have been seen as an infection control issue; once a sterile package is opened and not used immediately you cannot guarantee its sterility at a later date.
If an infection occured and a root cause analysis was carried out, were it to be found the the dressing had been opened on day x but then used y number of days later that would an issue.