He was posting how he had just gone out and bought a camera body and two lenses the total cost of which was around £12,500.
But you are posting this from your perspective ( I assume ) that this is a massive amount of money to spend on those items . If he has loads of money and £12500 was small change to him then why not ? We all go to work to enable us to buy things that we want , what's the point otherwise. Also I'm no photography expert but presumably more money equals better performance and while the camera itself may have features that he won't use , initially at least, there must be a difference in the performance of the lenses .
but presumably more money equals better performance and while the camera itself may have features that he won’t use , initially at least, there must be a difference in the performance of the lenses .
Well it's a nice camera for sure (the body is the same I use), but honestly, even though I own one myself, actually the 50% less expensive Nikon is better in terms of image quality. The lenses he bought were nice.
I don't have a problem with it though anyway, it just made me think why the term is so pejorative.
I don’t have a problem with it though anyway, it just made me think why the term is so pejorative.
I think the answer's pretty obvious on all sorts of levels, but really I just wanted to know if the quote functionality has been sorted.
Edit: Hallelujah!!!
I think in some cases it's frustration particularly if you've got the job of coaching them when you realise they've bought the wrong tool for the job and it's going to hinder their progress and enjoyment of the sport. As you're passionate about your sport you don't want to see people not enjoying it or your sport being slagged off because they couldn't do it and gave up as they had the wrong kit (at least reject our sport for a proper reason)
Another part is jealousy or envy because we think everyone should develop in the sport in the same way we did. So if you started off mountain biking on nans Raleigh Shopper that you found at the back of the shed before you managed to borrow a mountain bike with rigid forks off a friend that was the wrong size. Eventually you buy a bike that's the right size but still has rigid forks. At some point you upgrade to a Raleigh Activator and after biking for 20 years buy your first full suss. You are then pretty envious of anyone who for their first go turns up on a £5K Santa Cruz.
<p>As others have said, it's not really anything at all to do with how much is spent, it's the mistaken belief that better kit will make them better.</p><p></p><p>Now at the absolute bottom end there's certainly an argument that better kit will help you but ATGNI types will chase better kit to improve rather than focusing on their own abilities. They think you can fix a problem just by throwing money at it.</p><p></p><p>In shooting you see it all the time, people spending silly money on FT guns chasing better groups rather than learning how to shoot the one they have properly. Same in cycling, rather than improving their skills or fitness you get some chump splashing out on a carbon wotsit that will give them nothing like the benefit that the same money sent on coaching would.</p><p></p><p>As for a bad workman blaming his tools, you can have all the Snap-On's, Festool's or whatever in the world but if you don't know how to use them properly you are still going to make an arse of the job.</p>
So if you started off mountain biking on nans Raleigh Shopper that you found at the back of the shed before you managed to borrow a mountain bike with rigid forks off a friend that was the wrong size. Eventually you buy a bike that’s the right size but still has rigid forks. At some point you upgrade to a Raleigh Activator and after biking for 20 years buy your first full suss. You are then pretty envious of anyone who for their first go turns up on a £5K Santa Cruz.
Brilliant! That made me go into the loft to show my 6 year old pictures of me, aged 10, with my Nan's Raleigh Shopper, that I found in the back of her shed...and so on.
Anyhow, I've always thought that it doesn't matter if you are good or bad at the sport. So long as you look good in the gear
This would apply very much to photography. Particularly as most people seem to think tuition is about learning to use the camera, rather than learning how to point it at things.
I'm cutting down on some of my seldom used camera kit and just keeping the stuff that gets used/makes a bit of money. So feeling refreshed about my photography I popped down to Weymouth with a camera, 5 lenses and 2 flashes plus loads of filters.
Could I 'see' a photo to take all weekend? Nope. ATGNI
I'm 57 and:
play a Fender Stratocaster along with a wall of other sometimes custom guitars and a pile of amps.
ski Dynastar Omeglas slalom skis (165 R11) used with Head raptor boots (those white ones you saw on the feet of many in the Olympics).
ride a Lapierre carbon Zesty
this computer has a 94cm screen
swim in Speedos
live in the most desirable part of a desirable town
No idea, absolutely no idea, what a fool I am, I'm such a dick, it's so embarrassing. Perhaps coming clean on a forum frequented by other victims of bling will help with the guilt and embarassment, I could even get depresed about it and start a thread about how bad I feel so others feel better about themselves. I could post vids of me riding a trail and avoiding the jumps, playing My Way in C and singing in F, drive my car into a snow bank and post a pick of me digging it out... .
The last person I heard use the expression atgni in real life also owns a Rolex in real life.
The last person I heard use the expression atgni in real life also owns a Rolex in real life.
And they didn't know how to tell the time?
A lot of people taking offense here, not really sure why. It refers to people who have just started a new sport but have shelled out for all the most expensive stuff. It happens, it's kind of funny, and often means good things for the rest of us as it may get sold again second hand if they decide they don't like the sport. Win win!
[i]Edukator wrote:[/i]
I’m 57 and:
Bragging (apart from the speedos bit, nobody is at all envious about that).
[i]tjagain wrote:[/i]
Not read the whole thread but atgni can be well summed up in this vid – check the lines the lead motorcyclist is taking!
😆 - I love the spiel in the article - is the article writer taking the piss (Poe's law strikes here)?
I just had to report my own post - that vid clip seems to make the page ask for me to fill in a password - dunno if its the same for everyone
So you consider buying quality kit that is fit for purpose is bragging, Aracer. And Shermaer has a problem with me thinking that a Rolex is ser'iously bling as it is no more fit for purpose than a Casio (on a forum where psople are weight concious and will pay more for XTR to save 20gms then put on a Rolex) which weighs more than some XTR parts.
Yeah people make dumb choices, mine clearly create jealousy hence "bragging".
And would that motorcyclist be any less of an incompetaent aggressive rider on a Honda 50, TJ?
If I could add tabs I'd add "green monster".
I can live without bling but when does "durable, functional quality kit" become "bling"? You decide, I know where I draw my lines, feel free to draw yours as your wallet and needs determine.
Edit: I just thought the password demand was another random forum glitch, TJ, it's still there for me.
He would b the same rider Edukator but he would not be "all the gear no idea"
all the gear no idea to me is not about jealousy or anything similar - its about laughing at folk who think they can buy skills buy buying the best kit
I love the spiel in the article
I just had to report my own post – that vid clip seems to make the page ask for me to fill in a password – dunno if its the same for everyone
FYI, I've edited the link to point directly to YouTube just in case.
it’s not really anything at all to do with how much is spent, it’s the mistaken belief that better kit will make them better.
I think this nails it, and photography is surely the poster boy here. People who buy a dSLR because they "want to take better pictures." And yes, you can take better pictures with a dSLR, but if you're going to shove it in full auto and leave it there then you'd have been better off with an iPhone.
I think it boils down to, "is this the right tool for the job"?
I think threads like this brings out the worse in people. On one hand you get the ones you are dismissive of people with nice things but aren't the most skilful. Apparently we should all ride round on a supermarket bike and sports direct shorts until we are good enough to be racing at a decent level.
On the other hand you get people bragging about having a lot of nice kit and then thinking people are jealous when they get called out for sounding like an arse.
Buy what you want, and let others buy what they want to. Stop judging and just have fun. And don't take yourself too seriously.
Welcome to the internet,enjoy your stay,don't feed the pigeons.
Interesting thread. Some random thoughts. It doesn't bother me what people ride it good to see folk out so long as they don't look down at me on my second hand prophet. Even if they do it says more about their warped sense of self worth than their understanding of my ability or my wealth. My bike perfectly matches my ability and the amount I'm prepared to spend on mountain biking.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">If your minted and you take up mountain biking your not going to buy boardman in the same way you probably won't drive a Kia or buy your clothes from Primark. </span>
Some people buy expensive stuff because their self esteem is wrapped up in how they perceive people see them and how they look at other people. This is particularly true with cars on a basic level they are just transport but obviously to many people the car they drive represent much more.
An example from road biking. I'm sat here reading Cyclist Magazine, they have reviews for 3 bikes they are 8.5k, 9.3k and 2.8k. This is the magazine that described a 4k bike as entry level. This sets the bar that peolpe that have the money and the need to present a certain image think they need to spend to do 30miles on a Sunday morning. When in reality for 95% of folk something from Pauls cycles, riding a few more times a week and losing a few pounds would make a bigger difference to their cycling than 9k bike.
I don't ride much now but run, I'm not that fast but use pretty expensive trainers but I can't say I've ever looked at someone's feet and I doubt anyone looked at me and thought atgni. Maybe that's because you can't spend thousands on trainers.
I've recently started triathlon but I've refused to get drawn into to gear wars. Especially as I'm not troubling the folk at the front. Yes my ironman time could be 30 minutes faster on TT bike but I'd not be a 30 minute faster triathlete I'd be the same bloke on a faster bike. It then becomes a question of ego can you deal with people being faster than you because they've spent loads of money on gear and your time doesn't look as good but in reality you've put in a better performance. If you can't deal with it and need a fast bike theres always plenty on the time trial and triathlon Facebook page.
[i]Edukator wrote:[/i]
So you consider buying quality kit that is fit for purpose is bragging, Aracer.
I reckon mentioning where you live on a thread about kit might be (I still haven't quite worked out the relevance of the speedos).
No I'm not jealous at all - I doubt I have anything you want.
Not casting aspersions on his gear choice (a nice SC full suss and full neon enduro gear), but I think the bloke that I rode into the back of today counts as a bit ATGNI.
I was bombing down some off-piste niceness and caught up with him on some narrow switchbacks. Held back a bit as I didn't want to get to close, but he decided to slam the anchors on causing me to bounce off his rear tyre and slam into a tree.
The excuse....'I heard you behind me so I stopped to let you past.' Yes, thanks mate, but not by stopping dead on a narrow trail 🙁
all the gear no idea to me is not about jealousy or anything similar – its about laughing at folk who think they can buy skills buy buying the best kit
That's exactly what I and everybody I know understands it to mean. Think there's a few people here getting confused and trying to read to much into it!
This morning I went down my local DHish trails with a chap I know. He's not been riding off road very long, isn't very confident and to be honest pretty slow. But as he works hard and earns good money he built up an Airdrop something or other, a stupidly light and very capable full sus trail machine. I'm there on my ancient SS hardtail jump bike type thing and leaving him for dead. I derive no sense of achievement from that, he's learning and not hampering himself with a crap bike (although the carbon cranks are a bit excessive), it's cool.
He left about lunchtime and I met up with some other lads, the leader of whom was on a high spec DH bike and wearing a neck brace, full face, armour etc. I was also faster than him, which again I didn't think twice about until he started making excuses about his tyres not being very grippy and saying how good the Muddy Mary I run up front is..
It's only at that point I started thinking that maybe he's trying to buy ability rather than working to attain it. It made me think that maybe “all the gear no idea” comes down to attitude more than just the gear/ability ratio.
Yes my ironman time could be 30 minutes faster on TT bike
Unless you ARE currently using your fat bike, no chance. I used a TT bike and roadie on different editions of the same Ironman, Embrun, and went very slightly faster on the roadie. Even on flat courses the gain with a TT bike over 180km was less than 10 minutes. As for the difference between a 5K TT bike and a 10K TT bike, I'd predict a couple of minutes. Some people are happy to pay 5K to save 2 minutes, some people are hapy to pay 5K extra for a brand that will lose them two minutes but has a particular brand on the downtube. And there wil no doubt be someone on a forum somewhere to slag off both of them because they both spent 5k more than someone judges necessary and didn't win.
What people buy doesn't really worry me... it's more how they use it and how it affects me.
but he decided to slam the anchors on causing me to bounce off his rear tyre and slam into a tree.
case in point.
Many no doubt are just the victims of walking into a bike shop and getting sold the latest and greatest specialist bike .. and long may they continue to sell them with 3 hours of riding on them.
What MarkBrewer said. How did it take 3 pages to get there? (oh yeah, people thinking about it too much 😆 )
my interpretation is those guys who knock about the pubs in Abersoch in their huge Musto ocean fairing goretex jackets, with rolled up chinos and deck shoes - who dont even own a boat!
So feeling refreshed about my photography I popped down to Weymouth with a camera, 5 lenses and 2 flashes plus loads of filters.
Could I ‘see’ a photo to take all weekend? Nope. ATGNI
Photography seems to be a classic area for AGNIs. Years ago I used to play in a pub darts team. I was pretty good but the best player by a mile was a keen photographer. He had three darts and maybe a couple of spare sets of flights, same as everybody else, but my god he could throw them well.
He was a short bloke and his camera bag nearly dragged along the ground. It was full of lenses and, worst of all, Cokin filters. He'd go out at night on a bridge over the motorway and photograph car lights with long exposures, or take photos with starburst filters. They were all dreadful, without exception. Not only were the subjects cliched, but they weren't even well executed. He was so busy picking a different filter or lens that he had lost sight of what he was trying to achieve. The gear was getting in the way of what he was doing. He'd have been better spending all that money on a few hours of one to one instruction, so that he could "see" some decent photos.
Yesterday I went out in the fantastic light to take some photos in the countryside at a local beauty spot. I'd taken half a dozen when I noticed the camera displaying "demo" after each shot was taken. I'd forgotten to put the memory card back in! Well I wasn't going home to get it so I just did my walk and used my phone to capture the moments. When I got home the resulting image weren't as sharp and detailed as they would have been with my SLR and they weren't as consistently framed (most of the time I couldn't see the screen in the sunlight) but they were basically very satisfactory by my standards. For them to be much better I'd need to come up with some better ideas, not more kit. And that's what the phrase is all about.
And yes, you can take better pictures with a dSLR, but if you’re going to shove it in full auto and leave it there then you’d have been better off with an iPhone.
That's not really true though. You can benefit from the better lenses and varieties of them available for SLRs even if you only ever use the camera on program.
It's a bit like saying, if you don't ride off six-foot drops to flat on a full suspension mountain bike, you might as well ride a rigid. Things tend to be comprised of shades of grey rather than black and white. It's possible to own and use something without utilising its full potential and still benefit from its capabilities. Of course you can't make phone calls with a dSLR, so in the wider context, you may be right.
The main point though, is doesn't really matter anyway.
If I want to buy a Yamaha R1 or a 911 turbo or a motorised sports invalid carriage then pootle about on it around town at 30mph, then it's no-one's business but my own. Some people just like nice things and good luck to them. Who gives a stuff?
I'm guessing the term exists as an insult by self appointed gatekeepers who seem to exist in all walks of life.
Usually it describes someone with equipment beyond their current skill level. Using it usually speaks more about the person tossing the term about than the person who's the target of it.
It doesn't offend me really. I used to get worked up about it as a child. You'd see it a lot in tennis. People on court with the latest rackets and clothes the champions were using when they'd have been better off getting some instruction, or focusing more on their fitness.
With bike riding, arguably there are no bad choices. The more you pay, the nicer the bike and a nice bike always rides well.
With some sports you will actively worsen your enjoyment at best, and injure yourself at worst by making incorrect equipment choices. For example, the pros use rackets a lot heavier than most club/recreational level players can comfortably wield because their needs are different. The strings they choose are less durable, but are chosen for characteristics that complement their particular style. Blindly aping what they use will most likely injure you because you're not strong enough to swing a 300-350g racket for a few hours a day. In those cases you could argue they mean well, but it's harder to counsel someone than just toss a derogatory term around casually I guess.
Morally, I've got no objection to anyone going out and buying what they want. I enjoy seeing a nice bike as much as the next person to me. With clothes, it's nice to look good. It makes you feel good. It doesn't hurt me or my enjoyment one iota.
Really interesting one, and I'll probably mention bits others have covered. I find the phrase crops up a lot when I'm coaching kayaking, and I refuse to paddle with one club because there are far too many AGNI's.
In the kayaking sense it's often the middle-aged guys who have come into the sport late, have a chunk of disposable income, and have to have the 'best' of everything (and I use the term 'best' in inverted commas deliberately), the newest or perceived top-end gear - usually Palm drysuit and BA, Sweet helmet, carbon Werner cranked paddles, paddling either a Pyrahna 9R/Machno, a Waka Tuna or a Zet of some form - but don't have the basic skills to get the best out of the boat. There's often the latest GoPro attached. The other kit offers little-to-no performance advantage over cheaper stuff, but has to be on-brand.
The important words in there are "the newest or perceived top-end gear but not the basic skills to get the best out of the boat". Some kayaks - particularly bigger volume creek boats - can flatter beginners because they're more forgiving, don't get tripped over as easily. That unfortunately can lead to paddlers being lazy with their edging and body english, which is fine on easier water, but starts catching up with you when you run bigger volume or pushier stuff (I know, I've been there!).
What the phrase means I guess is dependant on how and where it's used. In the joking sense, it's for the Uni kayaker who's just blown a chunk of their student loan and bought themselves a new boat, after years of paddling whatever old lump they could grab from the Uni boat store, and is having a swim or two while trying to adjust to it. In the serious sense, it's the guy who looks like he's just walked out of the shop, but you wouldn't trust him to run a grade 3 the right way up, let alone Grade 4, and never mind leading anyone. You'll just wait for the 'hysterical' crash-and-burn edit to turn up on Facebook or Youtube and hope no-one got hurt.
Taking curiousyellow's post above: "I’m guessing the term exists as an insult by self appointed gatekeepers who seem to exist in all walks of life." Whether it's an insult or not depends on context. I've had it thrown at me, and laughed and agreed - I have some of the bits I listed above, but I've been kayaking for nearly 30 years, and while I don't run grade 5 any more I can usually get down grade 4 without hurting myself or anyone else. And like I say, I'll sing it at the Uni guys I coach jokingly - but that's more of a reflection on me if they don't have the skills, since I'm their coach! For the few people I consider genuinely to be AGNI, I wouldn't say it to their face. I try and limit my interaction with them entirely, as (in a few select cases) I consider them dangerous on the river. It's got nothing to do with being a gatekeeper - they can do what they like, I just don't want to be anywhere near them while they're doing it in case I end up collateral damage..
In the serious sense, it’s the guy who looks like he’s just walked out of the shop, but you wouldn’t trust him to run a grade 3 the right way up, let alone Grade 4, and never mind leading anyone
newbridge car park. every weekend.
In the serious sense, it’s the guy who looks like he’s just walked out of the shop, but you wouldn’t trust him to run a grade 3 the right way up, let alone Grade 4, and never mind leading anyone
newbridge car park. every weekend.
Too far south for me, but I've seen some great carnage clips of the Swale...
With bike riding, arguably there are no bad choices. The more you pay, the nicer the bike and a nice bike always rides well.
To an extent it depends on price point... but most more expensive bikes are going to be more discipline specific.
An out and out £3000+ XC bike can be a real pain on technical trails and take considerable skill to handle airtime... and whereby modern Enduro's are pretty capable all round they are hardly the best to ride round a tame XC course at any speed.
When I take a blast round Swinley I usually take my trail bike as it's more fun... but I often see people on Enduro Rigs slogging or pushing up the hills then descending the downhill (if that is the right word) at a crawl... which is fine by me until they get to a inch drop-off and the brakes go on full...
I guess it's my fault... but you see someone going down a tiny hill with a couple of small drop-offs and you don't expect them to suddenly brake like I'd expect a family on hire bikes or on a low end Halfords/Decathalon...
Quite the opposite end of the scale but I popped into the garage on the way home the other day and there was a family pressure washing a bunch of bikes... part of me said be nice and say something, the other half didn't want the hassle.
"Can they afford it?"
"Does owning it make them happy?"
If the answer is yes to both, then that's the limit of my interest and indeed the limit of my business.
Does my mate need to be a trackday god to enjoy owning his 911 GT3? No.
Does my colleague tell the time better because he has a Submariner on his wrist? No.
Is it any of my business and do I have any right to comment on what other people spend their hard earned cash on? No.
Blimey, some folk take this subject sooo seriously!
do I have any right to comment on what other people spend their hard earned cash on? No.
You have the right to say pretty much whatever you want, whether people will think you a dick for saying it is another matter. I do much of the former and am surely thought of as the latter just as much..
I’m coaching kayaking, and I refuse to paddle with one club because there are far too many AGNI’s
Sounds like you could make some money coaching and they could learn something. Why dismiss that possibility.
Put yourself in their shoes, they are probably keen to learn and happy to pay for a bit of coaching.
And why be critical of shop owners selling flash kit people who can afford it. I've been there and done that. Some people have so much cash that whether a bike costs 1K or 20 000k it's still just small change. Who is a bike shop owner to say "XT is nearly as good as XTR but better value for money" to someone who rolled up in an seriously expensive car, dressed in hand made clothes and shoes who spots the flashiest bike on display and starts asking question about it. And who are you to take the Mick when he rolls up at Swinley to do exactly the same as you - ride a bike.
If George C walked into your shop and said " I saw some MTB Enduro on TV and fancy having a go. I've booked some coaching but need all the gear, you've got an hour to fit me up and make the list of kit I need and a week to deliver it all to that bloke jedi"., what would you atgni haters sell him?
I’ll be the first to ‘fess up to the fact that either of the two main bikes gathering cobwebs and dust out in the shed are capable of doing far more technical stuff than I have the ability to ride successfully!
One is a Remedy 66, the other an On-One Inbred 567, a real hooligan hardtail that I never had the cojones to exploit to the full!
Having said that, I had the idea, and the gear, but that’s as far as it went.
My Inbred 853 S/S is much more in keeping with my abilities on a bike, I just need some soft knee protection to get back out on the thing.
I am very much All The Gear No Idea. Got a lovely Cruz (obviously) that I can barely ride, never mind ride to it's potential. Thing is, I enjoyed speccing it, building it and dare I say just looking at it, never mind mincing around on the thing, falling off at the slightest hint of a drop or root. I've been told I'm AGNI before and I'm quite happy to agree, I'd be just as shit on a cheap bike, may as well fall off something I enjoy owning.
Blimey, some folk take this subject sooo seriously!
Mostly those with really over-specced, over-priced computers imho.
someone who rolled up in an seriously expensive car, dressed in hand made clothes and shoes
Was it a Volvo XC90?
Did he try to sell you paperclips?
No, it wasn't CFH.
Edit: I replied before you added the paperclip clue !
Bravo perchy, also got it before he paper clip gag...
I had 10 days in the alps riding the mega route with an ATGNI type. Newly bought DH bike, never ridden anything more gnar than a speed bump. His sporadic hard braking caused me to come off, resulting in me having to pull my chainring out of my calf in order to get my bike off me...
fastforward 5 years and he’s doing really well in regional DH races, and is far quicker than I have ever been, or ever will be, on my many and varied carbon wonder chariots.
Who’da thunk it eh?
Does my mate need to be a trackday god to enjoy owning his 911 GT3? No.
Very true, but there's also a flipside to that: Does your mate brag about how he's a trackday god in his 911 GT3, when you know full well he drives like a bag of spanners?
I particularly like the examples given of ATGNI riders causing the poster to ride into them and crash. #irony
fastforward 5 years and he’s doing really well in regional DH races, and is far quicker than I have ever been, or ever will be,
Well, not with that attitude you won't.
I’m coaching kayaking, and I refuse to paddle with one club because there are far too many AGNI’s
Sounds like you could make some money coaching and they could learn something. Why dismiss that possibility.
Put yourself in their shoes, they are probably keen to learn and happy to pay for a bit of coaching.
Very true, unfortunately context is everything: I tried briefly, and the attitude was that they didn't want to learn, as they were getting on just fine working it out for themselves.
They've been through a succession of coaches, of which I was very briefly one. Two other coaches - both more qualified and better than me - moved away because they view the club (in its entirety) to be dangerous. I moved away after a very short stint because I was given a verbal dressing-down by a person I was coaching because I wasn't teaching a specific technique the way one of the former coaches had taught "and that was the way to teach that" (regardless of the fact that however it was taught, they still couldn't get it).
I'm not against people having nice kit - hell, we all like shiny things.
I particularly like the examples given of ATGNI riders causing the poster to ride into them and crash. #irony
I guess I treat this a bit like I treat big vans with a hire company logo.
I tend to assume that someone hiring a van who isn't used to driving one may benefit from a bit of extra room.
In the same way if I see a family on Halfords specials I assume they might need a bit more room... (though plenty of kids/youths on them don't... )
In the same way when someone is on a £5k Enduro rig I don't expect them to get to a 6" drop off and hit the brakes before then going OTB... or stand around round a blind corner or have a picnic on the landing of a double you can't see from above.
I'm not sure if other photography enthusiasts can relate but many times when someone has commented that they like a photograph I've taken they'll follow it up with "you must have a great camera?". Similarly people who are inexperienced mountain bikers often comment about how great your bike must be for you to x,y or z. I'm not saying this is pure ATGNI but it does show how some people rationalise things they don't fully understand.
Edukator
And why be critical of shop owners selling flash kit people who can afford it. I’ve been there and done that. Some people have so much cash that whether a bike costs 1K or 20 000k it’s still just small change. Who is a bike shop owner to say “XT is nearly as good as XTR but better value for money” to someone who rolled up in an seriously expensive car, dressed in hand made clothes and shoes who spots the flashiest bike on display and starts asking question about it.
Some people are well off and can afford whatever they want. Some people aren't well off and will over reach by way of loans or finance to attain things that won't really confer a performance benefit. XT vs XTR for example. When I worked in bike shops it was my experience that wealthy beginners valued advice and would buy high end, but not top of the range equipment, they might quickly upgrade but they would listen and buy appropriately. The 20 year old who only works part time but who has just decided to go mountain bike crazy on the other hand, they just NEED whatever frame or part they've set their heart on even if you tell them the lesser model is as good. They are easy to spot and easy to exploit.
And then you get people who are motivated for different reasons, love for example. Had a father who got an injury settlement from his employer, retired and decided to buy himself a carbon full sus mtb. The fancy bike piqued his 13 y.o son's interest in mountain biking and since his son had fallen out of the rugby team despite being a promising athlete his father took it as a good opportunity for him to spend time with junior so bought his a decent alloy full sus. Then junior decides he wants to race. Dad asks me if he needs to buy a DH bike...no. Junior does a few races but doesn't do well. Dad confers with me, I help him build an SX trail with totems. Junior does a few more races...junior says he needs Fox 40s. I disagree. I recommend tuition. Junior gets tuition his results improve, Dad buys him Fox 40s. Christmas comes around, dad buys him a DH bike, and he buys a VW transporter thing with awning and beds to travel to races. Dad asks me if the Fox DHX 5 on the bike is good enough for his son....his son says he needs a Cane Creek DB. No it'll be fine I say, he needs to get the DHX set up right. Another race, dad buys him the CCDB.
He's still not winning races but now is getting into the top 5. But the frame size is holding him back, so Dad buys another new bike, same bike, next size up. And a spare set of deemax wheels. Irish Champs..race day, Junior had a crash on his race run, crosses the line and throws his bike into the ditch screaming what a piece of ****ing shit it is. He never rides a bike again. His dad had spent over £18,000 in a year in my shop, to say nothing of the van, travel expenses, tuition, parts he bought elsewhere and despite constant advice to the contrary from all staff just kept throwing money at problems to no avail. It backfired completely. And I've seen that scenario play out four or five times in a very similar way.
I met his dad on the trails about a year later, no carbon mtb, no van, he'd had to sell it all and seemed pretty sheepish. His son was into kayaking now but he wasn't getting a penny from Dad.
Damn that was TL;DR
I tried briefly, and the attitude was that they didn’t want to learn, as they were getting on just fine working it out for themselves.
They’ve been through a succession of coaches
Just leave them to it then. You can lead a horse to water and all that !!