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You don’t think the codes of conduct nurses and doctors work under matter? They are there to prevent abuse
Of course it matters. Where's the abuse here?
People in healthcare who are “vaccine hesitant” should be facing some probing questions. Are you denying that? We shouldn’t be trying to change these minds?
Quite agree and they need to be dealt with. Note in Scotland and wales where tories are not in charge of the NHS this policy is not happening
medical ethics prevents a lot of abuse. We are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Would you go for an operation with a surgeon who was exercising his rights not to use antiseptic?
Agreeing to using antiseptic is not the same as agreeing to a medical procedure.
Note in Scotland and wales where tories are not in charge of the NHS this policy is not happening
Note in England the Tory government had to rely on support from the Labour Party, otherwise the policy would have failed.
Arrgghh-don't ask me direct questions! I was trying to get out of this! 🙂
the whole principles of consent have been worked out to prevent abuse. Covert medication because " doctor knows best" forced sterilisations on people with learning difficulties, covert contraception implants on asian women, medication of non neurortypical people to make them conform, sedating demented people to make them easier to care for all these things have happened in my lifetime
Jeepers I have seen a non neurotypical man given ECT to make him "calm" FFS
the abuses like this have diminished greatly over my time in healthcare because we now take ethics seriously
Interesting argument from Prof. Of ethics
Prof Dominic Wilkinson, Professor of Medical Ethics and Member of UKRI Pandemic Ethics Accelerator, University of Oxford, said:
“In the earlier phase of the pandemic, some of the most medically vulnerable members of our community, patients in care homes and acutely ill patients in hospitals, ended up catching coronavirus from those caring for them. Some patients and care home residents died from infections that they caught from their caregivers.”
“That is a tragic and distressing situation that we must do everything possible to avoid repeating.
“First, we should ensure that all those who are high risk have access to vaccination. There are still approximately 10% of older adult care home residents who have not had a 2nd dose of the vaccine.
“Second, those who work in the frontline with vulnerable high risk patients have an ethical obligation to take all reasonable measures to prevent spread of the virus to those they are caring for. They must follow guidance about the use of measures like hand washing and PPE. They should take part in lateral flow testing schemes. And they should be vaccinated.
“In England, as of 10th June, 17% of adult care home workers have not had the COVID-19 vaccine.
“There is a strong ethical case that care home workers (and NHS staff) who have not had the COVID vaccine should be redeployed to areas other than frontline care.
“It would be ethical to make COVID vaccination (in the absence of a medical exemption) a condition of employment in the same way that hepatitis B vaccination is currently for some health professionals.
“If vaccines are made mandatory for health care and care home workers, they should be able to choose from available vaccines. Every effort possible should be made to address any concerns that they have about the vaccines.”
medical ethics prevents a lot of abuse. We are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Sure.
Where's the abuse here?
Covert medication because ” doctor knows best” forced sterilisations on people with learning difficulties, covert contraception implants on asian women, medication of non neurortypical people to make them conform, sedating demented people to make them easier to care for all these things have happened in my lifetime
Jeepers I have seen a non neurotypical man given ECT to make him “calm” FFS
Terrible, of course. But it's whataboutery. Last I looked, I couldn't catch sterilisation or dementia regardless of what colour skin anyone had.
Again (again): no-one is making anyone conform. It's a choice. And actions have consequences. Comparing the choice to be vaccinated (or not) during a global pandemic, against forced sterilisation of people with learning disabilities... well. Really? REALLY? Good grief, I have nothing further.
Sorry - I had been at the beer and its a poor way to make my point about why consent freely given without duress is important
Interesting discussion point Drac.
"Every effort possible should be made to address any concerns that they have about the vaccines."
Which surely must be the preferred way forward, especially in the case of health workers. Vaccine hesitancy among health workers suggests some serious issues which really should be addressed and shouldn't be brushed under the carpet imo.
I would have thought that a concerted effort to inform and educate would leave such a small minority unvaccinated that compulsion might not be necessary, and the few remaining could be deployed where they pose no risk.
Obviously I am in no way in a position to predict outcomes but the policy of compulsory vaccination for health workers has been decided by politicians and not health authorities, for that reason alone I remain sceptical.
Are any other vaccines or blood tests requires for any medical workers?
If, for example a surgeon developed cataracts, I think he would be required to have the corrective surgery or no longer be permitted to perform surgery.
As a random example my mum is chronically poorly, aside from being a stroke survivor she’s seemingly down now to just the one kidney. I picked her up from hospital after a ‘routine’ operation around Christmas. Contracting Covid will almost certainly finish her off. Are you seriously, as a nurse, going to tell me that “I choose not to have a vaccination for who the * even knows what bullshit reason I’ve just made up” trumps my mother not being dead? Because if you are then you and I are going to have a falling out. I take your point and I broadly agree with it, but we are in atypical times and needs must.
Get vaccinated or * off out of the health service. I know you like your black and white, but for once it really is that simple.
This x1000. Well said.
In a small number of specific areas there are compulsory testing / immunisations and there is an expectation to have them in all areas. Hep B is mandatory in a small number of clinical areas. TB status needs to be known as well for all staff
For me one of the key points is that if you are told BEFORE you take up employment you need to do A,Band C and to be told this AFTER you take up employment is somewhat differnt
Note that Dracs view / experience on this is different from mine.
I signed a disclaimer to protect the NHS from claims after I did not want hep b vaccination ( working with a low risk group and previous bad reaction) If i was a paramedic I would have had the Hep B
Some are to protect the worker and some to protect the patients
Bails, yes I am required to have a hepatitis vaccination and my blood is checked to make sure I have antibodies.
For the record I have reacted badly to every one of the COVID vaccines (all reactions requiring time off sick). I have also continued to roll up my sleeve when asked to and I will continue to do going forwards.
I would have thought that a concerted effort to inform and educate would leave such a small minority unvaccinated that compulsion might not be necessary, and the few remaining could be deployed where they pose no risk.
Which is the plan.
But yes, certain vaccines are required in the health sector to carry out some roles. Some people on here can personally vouch for that.
More cash - thats the plan in Scotland and wales. In England its to dismiss the staff if they do not have the covid jag
Once again for the record I had my covid jags ASAP and think those that don't have them are idiots
Been watching this thread escalate but I have run out of biscuits so have a question!
If you can answer this without breaking rule no1 that would be appreciated!
Fwiw I’m vaccinated. However I agree with tj in principal and am massively against forced vaccination.
So far I have seen no data to suggest vaccinated people are less likely to spread covid. Only seen it suggested they may be more likely due to being psychologically “protected” by being vaccinated. That’s just a theory though!
What I don’t understand is if the vaccine doesn’t stop you contracting covid or spreading covid, how is forced vaccination going to help other people? If the vaccine lessens symptoms wouldn’t it be a case of being vaccinated helps one’s self?
Sorry for the simpleton questions this late in the game! I’m not arguing either point I m just trying to understand
In England its to dismiss the staff if they do not have the covid jag
Yeah I see two problems. The first problem is that unvaccinated health workers might pose a risk to patients (although I don't know how of a risk). And the second problem is that some health workers apparently don't trust the vaccine and the science behind it.
Forcing vaccination under the threat of being sacked might help to solve the first problem but it doesn't really address the second one, which I think is worrying and serious and shouldn't be ignored.
The role of the NHS isn't simply to provide medical care but to advise and educate. In that respect at least they have an obvious responsibility to their employees. I would have thought.
"In England its to dismiss the staff if they do not have the covid jag"
TJ, that is simply not true. I work for an NHS trust in England and "a concerted effort to inform and educate would leave such a small minority unvaccinated that compulsion might not be necessary, and the few remaining could be deployed where they pose no risk." is exactly what is happening. I know because I had the conversation with someone who reports to me last week.
Part of the problem is that we don't know who exactly it will apply to. Doctors, nurses and HCAs obviously, presumably AHPs, but ward clerks? Outpatient receptionists? Porters? Cleaners? IT staff who might be on a ward? Estates maintenance people who could have to go to a patient area? Anyone who could be "face to face" with a patient in a corridor? Depending on how it falls there could be very little left that is guaranteed 100% to never see a patient even in passing, and so very few redeployment opportunities. And then there's the whole "you're a nurse who's refused the jab, I hope you're familiar with double entry book keeping because you work in finance now".
@marksnook Been covered several times and at length in the main thread, I know it's not easy to search but it's there.
It doesn't prevent spread, it does help to reduce it by reducing viral load, etc. That's James's (wrong, IMHO) argument, not that vaccination doesn't work or doesn't help to reduce transmission but that because he's had the virus he has natural reduced chance of spreading, so doesn't feel he needs the virus.
I've also been watching (sometimes from behind my hands at the behaviours) but
For me one of the key points is that if you are told BEFORE you take up employment you need to do A,Band C and to be told this AFTER you take up employment is somewhat differnt
But circumstances change, and when circumstances change then we need to change to meet them. I'm against forcing, I agree it's a choice but come down on the side of a choice between doing what is needed to protect patients, or find something else to do.
TJ, that is simply not true. I work for an NHS trust in England and “a concerted effort to inform and educate would leave such a small minority unvaccinated that compulsion might not be necessary, and the few remaining could be deployed where they pose no risk.” is exactly what is happening. I know because I had the conversation with someone who reports to me last week.
That backs up the interviews with health chiefs at the weekend, vaccinate or redeploy. Anyone refusing to redeploy will potentially then be an issue, but it is not straight out the door with no vaccination
And the second problem is that some health workers apparently don’t trust the vaccine and the science behind it.
The problem with that is that health workers (i.e. anyone who works for the NHS) aren't necessarily vaccine experts, and they can pick up nonsense from Facebook* the same as anyone else. If someone doesn't want the vaccine because of X then you can show them the green book, you can show them all the clinical data, but they might stick to " I think the government are making up all the covid cases to control the population" or "the vaccine is experimental and we don't know what's in it" or "the manufacturer isn't liable if we have a bad reaction so they must know it's going to hurt us".
If someone like TiRed (or in fact a majority of people with the same background, you can always have a lone oddball/grifter) was refusing to take the vaccine then that would be different to an electrician who happens to work in the NHS.
*Edit: I'm not saying that any and all concerns about vaccines are automatically "nonsense from Facebook" btw.
but they might stick to ” I think the government are making up all the covid cases to control the population” or “the vaccine is experimental and we don’t know what’s in it” or “the manufacturer isn’t liable if we have a bad reaction so they must know it’s going to hurt us”.
If that’s the case they have no place working in healthcare.
That backs up the interviews with health chiefs at the weekend, vaccinate or redeploy.
So why were Kings saying something different at the weekend?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/covid-vaccine-nhs-hospital-staff-b1990111.html
A south east London hospital chief has warned it could be on track to lose 1,000 staff if they refuse to have the coronavirus vaccination before it becomes mandatory for health service workers come April.
What becomes mandatory for health service workers come April?
"So why were Kings saying something different at the weekend?"
Because they might struggle to redeploy 1000 people to 'back office' jobs. And even if only a fraction of them are in patent facing roles at the moment, you still need hundreds of new doctors/nurses/etc to replace the people that have been moved to new jobs answering phones.
ernie - potentially because some combination of (a) they can't redeploy 1000 people so if their trust still have that many unvaxxed they have an issue - getting that message out to the staff helps bring the number down and potentially helps focus the minds of any belligerent union reps, (b) if people think that refusing will get them redeployed not sacked the motivation to get vaxxed may not be there (or worse - may be higher - if you are in a front line shitty job and there's an option to refuse vaccination and get moved to a perceived less aggressive role you might even be encouraged to hold off vaccination to get the job move!), (c) the hospital chief doesn't want mandatory vaccination and wants to put pressure on the government to rescind its plans now that its encouraged an extra chunk of hospital staff to get vaxxed. Basically politics with a small p.
So the consequences are they lose their jobs.
Shouldn't it be for Kings to decide what serves patient needs best, rather than politicians?
Or are we saying that the NHS can't be trusted and we need to rely on the more trustworthy politicians?
Vaccine hesitancy among health workers suggests some serious issues which really should be addressed and shouldn’t be brushed under the carpet imo.
Working in social care and having seen the effects of the pandemic through a very particular lens I can safely say that my personal view point was compulsory vaccines. But…
Professionally we and colleagues in associated orgs took a more strategic approach. This focussed on getting the willing vaccinated quickly, working through issues and educating the unsure, and identifying that the remainder who are hardcore really are not a significant issue. But it requires perseverance and 1-1 time in the addressing often quite complex concerns. Using that route we have achieved 97% vacs rate across a range of orgs all with different management teams, located across Scotland.
Vaccine hesitancy among health workers suggests some serious issues which really should be addressed and shouldn’t be brushed under the carpet imo.
Just because folks have a medicine degree or qualification doesn't make them immune from making stupid decisions. They're just as vulnerable to mis-information as the next person. There are any number of clinicians willing to make daft claims regarding vaccines...See Andrew Wakefield for example.
Shouldn’t it be for Kings to decide what serves patient needs best, rather than politicians?
It is a decision for politicians though, as it will need a law change. I'm hoping that they've carefully weighed up the pros and cons given to them by experts and come to a decision carefully, rather than just something that they think plays well with their supporters.
Professionally we and colleagues in associated orgs took a more strategic approach. This focussed on getting the willing vaccinated quickly, working through issues and educating the unsure, and identifying that the remainder who are hardcore really are not a significant issue. But it requires perseverance and 1-1 time in the addressing often quite complex concerns. Using that route we have achieved 97% vacs rate across a range of orgs all with different management teams, located across Scotland.
Surely that is the answer?
Poly suggests that political interference has actually resulted in some health workers being even more determined not to be vaccinated, which apparently is why Kings is talking about losing 1000 employees.
See Andrew Wakefield for example.
The claim is that approximately 10% of health workers haven't been vaccinated, so the problem is bigger than a few individuals.
Vaccine hesitancy among health workers suggests some serious issues which really should be addressed and shouldn’t be brushed under the carpet imo.
With less than 7% of NHS workers not being vaccinated they hardly represent those working in healthcare.
It is a decision for politicians though, as it will need a law change. I’m hoping that they’ve carefully weighed up the pros and cons given to them by experts and come to a decision carefully, rather than just something that they think plays well with their supporters.
Very hopeful of you. all the royal colleges ( as far as I can see) and the unions are against the policy, many senior managers are against the policy and its England only - Wales and Scotland have made it clear they will not be doing this.
Its a purely political ploy. Nothing to do with the actual need and will cause serious issues in its own right
With less than 7% of NHS workers not being vaccinated they hardly represent those working in healthcare.
No it doesn't represent the majority in health care, I'm positive that no one has suggested otherwise.
Whether it's 7% or 10%, as claimed by Kings, it is a relatively small problem which nevertheless involves thousands.
I have no doubt that the importance of the issue is overstated, which is why sparksmcguff's experienced based solution, as outlined above, sounds more reasonable than some arbitrary April 1st deadline set by politicians.
Edit : btw my suggestion of serious issues was in relation to the lack of trust among thousands of health workers with the regards to the vaccine and the science behind it, not being unvaccinated.
Whether it’s 7% or 10%, as claimed by Kings, it is a relatively small problem which nevertheless involves thousands.
I was referring to believing if those 7% aren’t being vaccinated then we should question the vaccine.
Don't know if we are talking cross purpose Drac but I'm supposed to be working so I'll leave it there.
And the second problem is that some health workers apparently don’t trust the vaccine and the science behind it.
The problem with that is that health workers (i.e. anyone who works for the NHS) aren’t necessarily vaccine experts, and they can pick up nonsense from Facebook* the same as anyone else. If
Is it worth taking note when a bona fide vaccine expert raises questions?
I'm not at all surprised at doctors like the Sky news guy being hesitant. When he says that the science is unclear, I think that statement is correct.
Despite being triple jabbed myself, I don't look at these medical professionals as flat earth anti Vax nutjobs. They're not.
Take a listen to Robert Malone on JRE podcast recently. I listened to all three fascinating hours myself.
Not the Atlantic hit piece, or some Twitter soundbite out of context, but the actual conversation.
I thought he came across very well, writing him off as some sort of far right grifter is just silly.
By contrast, Albert Bourla speaking to Lex Friedman came across as, well, a multinational CEO😅
Certainly not full on Dr Evil, but I think the bottom line matters to him above all else.
Take a listen to Robert Malone on JRE podcast recently.
I’d rather drink bleach.
A quick google on Malone gives this
https://www.logically.ai/articles/who-is-dr.-robert-malone
The guy is clearly a clown who has made all sorts of easily disproved claims according to this
Why?
Because I too am under the effect of a mass psychosis. Too easily led by the groupthink of a scientific and medical conspiracy. Or something...
Don’t know if we are talking cross purpose Drac but I’m supposed to be working so I’ll leave it there.
Yeah I think completely missed what you meant. My apologies.
Take a listen to Robert Malone on JRE podcast recently. I listened to all three fascinating hours myself.
Is that Malone who claims he invented mRNA vaccines? I’ll pass.