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That's why I suggested listening to the full conversation if you're able.
I'm fortunate that my work is such that I am able to do so.
@tjagain that's exactly the sort of trash article I'm on about.
It simply doesn't tally up with what the guy actually says.
Once again, I'm not anti Vax, I've had three of them already.
I'm simply suggesting listening to an actual expert.
Echo chambers serve nobody IMO. That's what I love about long form podcasting, there's always something out there to challenge your own views.
Jameela Jamil or Roberts Evans in the morning, Alex Jones after lunch 🤣
Lengthy conversation tends to reveal we all have more in common than that which divides. The total opposite to clickbait journalism or Twitter.
He is not an expert tho clearly. He is talking utter balderdash about it and making wild claims that are not true and is associated with far right conspiracy theorists. Its obvious he has nothing of value to say on this at all given that he so quickly descends into wild conspiracy theories.
Is that Malone who claims he invented mRNA vaccines? I’ll pass.
If you can give me the time stamp in that podcast where he says that, I'll send you a box of kinder eggs as a special prize.
It's only in clickbait articles you'll find that claim.
What he claims is that he was part of a team who worked together to develop the tech, and that he filed some patents.
and making wild claims that are not true and is associated with far right conspiracy theorists.
Any specifics on the claims, and which far right conspiracy theorists?
I've skimmed most of this and all the arguments have been made, so I am posting to just agree, that yes they should be vaccinated to work in NHS. Employers decision, if you don't like it, find another job, there are over 1.2million vacancies in the UK at the moment.
A Dr/Nurse/Vet etc has to be qualified from a recognised body to work, is that some kind of discrimination or totalitarianism? No, its just a barrier to entry that must be hurdled. Same with this.
Employers decision, if you don’t like it, find another job, there are over 1.2million vacancies in the UK at the moment.
I maybe over simplifying this, but surly they want to continue their profession there isn't another employer... in the uk any way.
Not quite the same, but I remember that my dad had multiple “mandatory” vaccinations in the RAF, including Yellow Fever. A job in civvy street awaited anyone who didn’t get their vaccines. Not “the same” job, obviously.
I maybe over simplifying this, but surly they want to continue their profession there isn’t another employer… in the uk any way.
I am sure this is true, but so what.
I'd like to join the army - sounds ace, mainly working on your fitness and going for long walks in the countryside.
Ethically, I don't like shooting at people or being shot at though, so if I can be excused that bit.
If you can give me the time stamp in that podcast where he says that, I’ll send you a box of kinder eggs as a special prize.
Well not in that podcast but it is something he claims.
Take a listen to Robert Malone on JRE podcast recently. I listened to all three fascinating hours myself.
Not the Atlantic hit piece, or some Twitter soundbite out of context, but the actual conversation.
I thought he came across very well, writing him off as some sort of far right grifter is just silly.
That was excellent, as was JR interviewing Dr Peter McCullough (cardiologist and more) a few days before and slightly shorter at 2.3/4 hours.
Dr Peter McCullough (cardiologist and more)
Mr "plandemic".
Dr Peter McCullough (cardiologist and more)
Some of which were false and needed a restraining order as he refused to stop using them.
Well not in that podcast but it is something he claims.
Chopping someone's speech mid sentence and then twisting the words to suit a narrative, that's all I'm seeing in that vid.
Sorry bedmaker... I admire your patience, but most of us long ago gave up giving shills like Malone or McCullough too much of our time. By all mean give us a precis of what we're missing. Perhaps in the main thread.
Chopping someone’s speech mid sentence and then twisting the words to suit a narrative, that’s all I’m seeing in that vid.
You’ll be able to find the full video on one of your conspiracy sites, it’s exactly what he claims. You know off the sheet he’s reading off to make sure he’s got his facts right. How can you twist the words “I invented..” into anything else?
Back online after a months ban..........wanders into stw forum to see Joe rogans and Lex Friedmans guests held up as bastions in the fightback against vaccine efficiency and safety......shakes head and mutters obscenities whilst closing door on my way back out.
Any specifics on the claims, and which far right conspiracy theorists?
The claims that he makes that are wrong are outlined in the link I gave. Far right conspiracy theorists - start with Tucker Carlson and carry on from there - you even namecheck one of them yourself
How can you twist the words “I invented..” into anything else?
I invented mRNA technology......
That's the phrase chopped in the video.
That guy above twists the words into 'Malone claims to have invented mRNA vaccines'.
In the podcast I mentioned above, it's more like -
'I invented mRNA technology, which I filed patents for. A huge team of very smart people worked together to use that technology to develop vaccines used in the fight against Zika, HIV and now Covid'.
At no point does he claim to have invented mRNA vaccines.
That claim is simply untrue.
I'm no cheerleader for the guy, I only mentioned him because someone further up the thread talked about listening to vaccine experts as opposed to medical experts more generally, like the doctor in the news clip.
Yes but he is not an expert is he when he makes so many easily disprovable claims
At no point does he claim to have invented mRNA vaccines.
That claim is simply untrue.
But he has. The video stops there but isn’t cut. He literally claims he created the process, which is a complete lie.
Ethically, I don’t like shooting at people or being shot at though, so if I can be excused that bit.
After 20 months of the pandemic, my ethical stance on not shooting people is weakening to be honest.
Sorry, playing catchup.
the whole principles of consent have been worked out to prevent abuse. Covert medication because ” doctor knows best” ...
Waaait a minute now. You're conflating patient consent with staff consent here.
At a patient level you're absolutely correct and I agree with you 100% (or at least, I think people refusing treatment are abject morons, but they have the basic human right to be moronic if they so choose. It's their funeral).
But that's not what I'm arguing about, rather that medical staff have a duty of care which includes taking basic precautions to protect their patients such as receiving vaccinations against a virulent, initially asymptomatic disease in the middle of (I'm amazed no-one's mentioned this before) a global pandemic. There is no single rational, credible reason not to do this unless you're medically unable to receive it (and really, if that's the case then is healthcare an ideal choice of profession?)
C'mon man, why is this still a conversation? It's utterly barking. Someone works in a hospital, literally a building stuffed to overflowing with sick and vulnerable people, they need to grow up and get vaccinated or sod off somewhere else. That right there is the ethical decision.
For me one of the key points is that if you are told BEFORE you take up employment you need to do A,Band C and to be told this AFTER you take up employment is somewhat differnt
Again, I take your point. And again, I'm filing this under "so what?" You're arguing a point of contention purely because it's contentious rather than for any practical reason. Employment contracts change all the time and not always for the better; each and every time the employee has a choice, they can accept the new contract or they can seek employment elsewhere. Yes, it's shit, but this is how the working world turns I'm afraid. This isn't new.
No-one in the UK is being forced to have medical treatment they don't want, this is a tabloid lie. There is always a choice, even if you don't like the alternatives.
Is it worth taking note when a bona fide vaccine expert raises questions?
Define "expert." As mentioned earlier, Wakefield was an 'expert.' That worked out well.
In the podcast I mentioned above, it’s more like –
‘I invented mRNA technology
...
At no point does he claim to have invented mRNA vaccines.
That claim is simply untrue.
Oh come on now. This is special pleading second only to writing "350 million" down the side of a bus and then later protesting that you only said "let's" rather than making any promises. Did he have his fingers crossed?
cougar the person in receipt of the medication is the patient. I am not confusing anything. Everyone staff or not has the "duty of care" its just staff are judged to a higher standard.
I am arguing the point not just because its contentious but because this is a massive change to medical ethics.
Sorry folks - cougar asked a direct question to me.
cougar - pms if you want to discuss / understand this further?
I am arguing the point not just because its contentious but because this is a massive change to medical ethics.
No it isn't, they have to give consent to take the vaccine. We cannot force them to take it.
No it isn’t, they have to give consent to take the vaccine. We cannot force them to take it.
We aren't. If they don't want the vaccine, they will be redeployed. If they can't/won't be redeployed, well welcome to the world of changing work contracts.
No it isn’t, they have to give consent to take the vaccine. We cannot force them to take it.
As above - consent must be given freely without pressure so there can be no valid consent under " take the jag or else"
For consent to be valid, it must be given voluntarily and freely, without pressure or undue influence, by an appropriately informed person who has the capacity to consent to the intervention in question.
NMC
Arrggh =- got sucked back in
cougar the person in receipt of the medication is the patient.
No, first and foremost they're staff and as such have to comply with contractual obligations as per the terms of their employment. And, again, they have a choice here.
I am not confusing anything. Everyone staff or not has the “duty of care” its just staff are judged to a higher standard.
Out of interest what does a lower standard of duty of care look like?
I am arguing the point not just because its contentious but because this is a massive change to medical ethics.
Nonsense, it's bog all to do with ethics. If you were pinning down (actual) patients and jabbing them against their will then I'd agree with you, that would be outrageous. But it's not, it's a requirement that staff dealing with patients are suitably protected for mutual safety. It's arguably unethical not to do this.
Again (again, again), if I'm in hospital I don't want vaccination deniers anywhere near me. I'm not in there on bloody vacation. The last thing I want is some plague vector shitwit attending to my care, I'd rather bleed out.
As above – consent must be given freely without pressure so there can be no valid consent under ” take the jag or else”
Bullshit.
"Have the heart surgery or you will die. " Is this duress or not? No it is not, its a simple choice of cause and effect. There are 1.2million vacancies in the Uk, if you can't comply with the service requirements, get another job, its not duress, its just a way of weeding out the morons.
EG imagine if you are gushing blood from a cut and you are a Dr, your boss says, stop treating people and get some stitiches.
Dr says no, I do not consent to the treatment, my cut will heal naturally.
Boss says, sorry you can no longer treat patients.
Is this Duriss? Is it ****.
For consent to be valid, it must be given voluntarily and freely, without pressure or undue influence, by an appropriately informed person who has the capacity to consent to the intervention in question.
Besides which, as someone else said, a P45 (unfortunately) isn't the only alternative. You could be redeployed to a department where your lack of critical thinking is less likely to kill someone.
cougar sent yo a pm about duty of care
You could be redeployed to a department where your lack of critical thinking is less likely to kill someone.
V funny.
I wish I knew how to add emojis.
Imagine a hypothetical person. Let's call them 'JT'. JT is chatting, in a circle of, say, 5 or 6 other people. They're all talking. 5 people agree on something, and JT just says 'Yeah, but <reason>'. Individually every other person says "That's not the issue here and misses the broader point".
At what point does JT realise that maybe, just maybe, he's the outlier that needs to review his position?
Be interesting to see what happens and how many clinicians move to Wales or Scotland if they feel that strongly about having the jab.
Something about doors, arses, percussion and the exit.
It’s arguably unethical not to do this.
You'd think, wouldn't you.
Guys - its going round in circles now. I understand your points and I agree these clowns need to be dealt with. I am just very uncomfortable with throwing away the huge body of medical ethics over consent and I have explained why. The NMC statement on consent is very clear
I will happily admit when wrong - but looking at things from a different direction is not wrong. Wanting to follow the ethical code tha tthe NMC has is not wrong
Ask yourselves this. How is threatening to sack someone if they do not take a treatment consent "Freely given without pressure"
I am not going to answer again on here - its just making folk cross and I understand why.
You worries are unfounded. Plenty of people have hobsons choice over treatment.
Ask yourselves this. How is threatening to sack someone if they do not take a treatment consent “Freely given without pressure”
I very much doubt that this is a sackable offence. Hell, you probably know this better than I do.
Rather, if you're incapable of performing your job in a safe manner then is it not wholly reasonable for an employer to change your role?
You talk about ethics, what's remotely ethical about having an unvaccinated member of staff wandering around amongst potentially seriously ill patients?
Covid is the disease contracted from SARS-2. Remember SARS-1? The "superbug" that ripped through hospitals with hilarious consequences? Are we learning yet?
You're backing the wrong ethic, I fear.
I very much doubt that this is a sackable offence. Hell, you probably know this better than I do.
Rather, if you’re incapable of performing your job in a safe manner then is it not wholly reasonable for an employer to change your role?
Is being a thick **** a sackable offence? Cos not taking the vaccine pops you in to this category without passing Go.
I very much doubt that this is a sackable offence.
Tell Javid that - he has made it clear - Jag or risk lose your job
Guys – its going round in circles now.
Isn't it just. IMO the thread should have ended after this post by sparkymcguff:
Working in social care and having seen the effects of the pandemic through a very particular lens I can safely say that my personal view point was compulsory vaccines. But…
Professionally we and colleagues in associated orgs took a more strategic approach. This focussed on getting the willing vaccinated quickly, working through issues and educating the unsure, and identifying that the remainder who are hardcore really are not a significant issue. But it requires perseverance and 1-1 time in the addressing often quite complex concerns. Using that route we have achieved 97% vacs rate across a range of orgs all with different management teams, located across Scotland.
It sounds very much like the practical, sensible, and reasonable solution, to vaccine hesitancy within the NHS, without the need for interference from politicians and their arbitrary deadlines.
And yet no one seems to want to comment or discuss that post. Much better to instead focus on anger-fuelled vindictiveness. Apparently.
It sounds very much like the practical, sensible, and reasonable solution, to vaccine hesitancy within the NHS, without the need for interference from politicians and their arbitrary deadlines.
The deadlines are there to force the issue and get vaccinations done in a timely fashion. Care or NHS staff getting their first jab in a year's time is likely to be of little use. The pandemic forces a timescale on the issue. Arguably it needed doing sooner, to make sure the workforce were ready for this winter, and the almost inevitable big winter wave that was always coming down the tracks.
And yet no one seems to want to comment or discuss that post.
Because that didn't scale well across the whole of the care sector, not in England anyway... where the government had to step in and use the law because so many workers were refusing to get vaccinated. I half suspect that the NHS England approach to vaccinations is mostly taking place out of a sense of fairness to the care sector workers... as the levels of unvaccinated staff in the NHS might well be low enough that the law isn't needed to the same degree.
A comment on that post...? For me it outlines the best approach... if that approach could be rolled out everywhere with the same level of success in a short enough timespan to help us get through the pandemic... that would be great.