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Fellow parents - I'm after some advice. My 4 year old daughter has always been a really good / heavy sleeper.
Recently (At the start of her Xmas holidays after her first term of school) she has been waking up arond 1am and staying awake for about 3 hours on average.
She gets up and says she can't sleep and won't stay in bed.
As I am sure you can imagine this is driving us up the wall especially now as we are back at work.
So far we've tried:
- Putting her back to bed without saying anything to her - she just gets straight back out of bed.
- Telling her to go back to bed - we just enter a debate about it.
- Putting her back to bed and stroking her head to help her get back to sleep - spend about 15 mins doing it and she doesn't go to sleep and we've made a rod for our own back!!!
- Putting her to bed and telling her we will check on her every X minutes - she stays in bed until she thinks we've forgotten but now expects us to check on her all the time throughout the night!!!!
- telling her to sit on the step until she is tired or go back to bed - sort of works but means we have to stay up with her for an hour or so
- Incentivising her to stay in bed - if you stay in bed we'll do X, Y or Z wiht you in the morning - doesn;t work!!!
- Taking toys away - works but ends in tears and wakes the rest of the house up.
- Using Medised to help her get back to sleep and reset her body clock (Not sure if this is ethical but all else isn't working)
The big problem is we don't know what to do now and we stay awake at night expecting her to get out of bed and is really running us down. We know we have two problems - the attention and that her body clock is now set to wake up around 1am!!!
The one we are trying tonight is two fold -
1. We've told her we'll send her to stay with Aunt Spiker (evil aunt from James and Giant peach)
and
2. We've agreed that if she sleeps through consequitively for 14 days we'll buy her a bike.
Anyone else got some suggestions?? (We've considered adoption and locking her in her room at night - neither sits well with us though)
We got a clock/light (a Thomas one for my 4 and a bit year old boy) that is a nightlight during sleepy hours and goes off at a set time.
We simply laid down the instructions that if the light is on, you should be in bed, quiet. Getting up for toilet breaks is fine, but back to bed until the clock changes.
Worked a treat, he stays in bed instead of bouncing out at 5am!
let her stay up for an "In the night garden"-a-thon on DVD. Then she'll pass out eventually at midnight or 1am and stay asleep until dawn.
Arm youself with a bottle of good wine and book you've been meaning to read.
That should reset her circadian rhythm!
My son isn't 4 till april but recently he's been the same,
all we have been doing is keep putting him back to bed(has taken
a couple of weeks)but he is finally starting to stay in bed until
about 6.30(not quite what we want but better than up all night).
Persevere!
phenergan
I find a gruff "get back to bed NOW!!!!" seems to work.
Failing that - monsters under the bed.
what we ended up doing was letting them come into bed with us a while, far from ideal and can cause problems in its own, i.e. you need to weanthem back to their own bed.
Buy them a single bed and if they wake get into their bed until they or you fall asleep, again not ideal but it means you are not up for an hour through the night but it does re-establish the sleeping pattern.
Are you letting her nap through the day or in the evening, if so it might be time to stop that. also perhaps she is going to bed to early?
The other trick is a warm milky drink before bed can settle them down a bit better. And the same if they wake up - bit of a pain and can "reward" them for waking.
i wouldnt bother with the stick or carrot approach it didnt help us at all when it came to getting them to sleep.
i'm sure there is another method which I cant remember which effectively just lets them bawl their eyes out until they go back to sleep - we didnt do that....
We spent about a week putting her to bed everytime she got up - keeping it consistent but didn't work.
The annoying thing is her 2 yr old sister who sleeps in the same room doesn't wake up during all the commotion!!!
We ocassionally have the same with our 5 year old. We found the best solution is to have a mad day of physical activity, avoiding any sugary treats, then go with Stoner's DVD / TV fest. Her bodyclock is reset and everything's back to normal the next day (in bed at 7 pm up at 6.30 am).
Scotabroad - after two hours last night I got into bed with her - far from ideal as I couldn't sleep but she went off and I finally went back to my own bed at 5.30am for a lush 1.5 hours of sleep before I had to get them up for school.
We don't let her sleep during the day at all and goes down at a reasonable time.
We tried the milk thing but didn't work so stopped it due to the reward aspect of getting out of bed...
I am tempted to let her sleep with us until she resets the body clock - but my wife is exceptionally grouchy if she has a disturbed sleep so on second thought I'd rather sleep in her bed until she sorts this out. Thanks
Ahhh - OK - so Stoner's idea isn't to let her watch it when she wakes in the middle of the night - but keep her up and delay going to bed until she passes out... Now I get it and I like it!!! 😀
I feel really happy now I've got a new tactic!!!
I find a gruff "get back to bed NOW!!!!" seems to work.
Always worked with me as a kid. Unless there was a specific reason for not being asleep (bad dream, needing the loo etc) I knew I'd incur my dads wrath for waking him!
just a thought.
She is not worried about something?
Our little one used to have sleepless nights worrying about Father Christmas and foxes of all things, coming into her room at night.
Pirton may work short term - anti histamine but induces drowsiness.
More tired during the day etc more active I assume but out of your control.
Do one thing/programme approach and do it consistently FOR EVER .... dont keep changing etc
Do what you think is best everyone on here will have some advice for you and will know what is best.
In my experiencs ...just getting back to sleeping regualirly with child number 2 (aged 2)... it will take a few weeks/months to correct. They get used to the fact if they cry (usually afetr being ill) you will come running ... if you do go running go straight away or not at all (if you wait 20 mins they just learn to cry for 20 mins to get your attention.
PS they want attention it is the only thing they ever want therefore do what gives them the least attention at night when they should be in bed, reward the behaviour you want (sleeping even partial amounts)- positive reinforcement breakfast in bed, story in the morning whatever , punishing (negative reinforcement) is not very effective but often makes us feel better as we vent our lack of sleep frustations on them ... done this myself as you beg for them to just go back to sleep
Take it in turns to sleep downstairs every now and again you need a full night sleep for some of the week
Good luck you will get through it
in bed at 7 pm up at 6.30 am
CRIKEY - dont think I've ever slept for that long!
Persistence with a firm but gentle bedtime routine and putting the child back to bed with no 'rewarding' responses (even a telling off can be 'rewarding' in some circumstances) It may take a good few nights (more than the week you've tried). It may seem holier than thou and out of the text books, but it does work. I've used the technique with both my kids. There's a book called "teach (or maybe help) your child to sleep through the night" that I used with my first child when I thought I was going to die of sleep deprivation or murder him first. There's bound to be a website with more detailed info on how to do it. It's a 'behavioural' technique so you could google that.
I Can't watch the vid at work but there looks like some good links from here: [url= http://www.videojug.com/interview/child-sleep-training-basics ]link[/url]
(still getting to grips with the linky buttons)
coffeeking - Memberin bed at 7 pm up at 6.30 am
CRIKEY - dont think I've ever slept for that long!
I know - if I slept that long as an adult I'd call it a coma.
I say this, as Bushwacked will know, as a non-parent, but
[i]- Putting her back to bed without saying anything to her[/i]
would seem to be the only option. Just keep doing it, for as long as it takes. She's a lovely little girl, but let's face it she's stubborn and is at the age where she's testing boudaries constantly. She needs to understand that bed (or more accurately sleep) time is just that, and what you say goes. No discussion.
I watched a similar thing on Supernanny (or something similar) once. The mother must have put the child back into bed about thirty times one night, there were tears (on both sides) and tantrums from the child, but she stuck at it and it worked.
Kids, in general, need waaaaaay more sleep than 'grown ups' and it is usual to need less and less as you age.
IHN is right, but as any parent will tell you, it is so much easier said than done. But he/she is still right.
[i]it is so much easier said than done[/i]
That I know.
And I'm a he (except on weekends, when my name is Tracey) 🙂
I thought you were tracey at the weekend and Brenda during the week at night - And Simon at Work?
Thanks though and if you want to come and try out your technique on our child please feel free!!!
[i]IHN is right, but as any parent will tell you, it is so much easier said than done. But he/she is still right.[/i]
he is indeedy, at least in my experience. We're going through the exactly the same thing with our 4 year old and 2.5yr old girls. They never used to be too bad - used to wake once in the night and would go off again with a little reassurance after 10 minutes or so - but the family going down with the flu, xmas festivities and all that disruption meant that they were waking and moaning until we came in and gave them cuddles until they wen back off, or were getting out of bed and coming into ours - 4 in a bed doesn't work anyway you try it, neither does trying to keep warm and comfortable whilst cudding a toddler in a kiddie bed thing.
Now they're both back in their usual routine (nursery for the eldest etc) and we're struggling to get them to stay in their own beds - the only thing that looks to work is the above approach. They wake, we go in and put them back into bed without a work - a kiss on the head and tuck them back in. Rinse and repeat until the little ****ers get the message / fall asleep with exhaustion. We had a nightmare night on Sunday, better Monday and last night we were only awake twice (11pm and 3am) which is a real improvement.
Every now and again we have to go through this hell when their routines get out of kilter and their night / sleep gets messed up, usually after we/they have been ill or we've been on holiday etc. It's SOOOOO hard but my wife and I are splitting it into a one-on, one-off routine so at least one parent is functional the next day and night.
Good luck.
All children at some point decide not to sleep . All children at some point decide they are going to start sleeping again. At this point it is important to remember which particular method you were using so that you can then confidently post that on forums as the solution to all childrens sleep problems. We have three including twins and the only really important thing to remember is that it doesn't last forever it only feels like it will.
kill them, and be done with it, you know all the real fun was making them in the first place, so draw a line under it and start over... eh?
Simon, whose daughter, is up before 5am every morning..
Slight tangent I know but well funny:
[url= http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-be-the-best-dad-in-the-galaxy ]How to be the best dad in the galaxy![/url]
Found this while having a look at some stuff - always wondered what it would have been like if they'd stayed together as a family!
My daughter wakes every night and disturbs us all including her younger brother. We have tried everything. She is 12.
Agree with INH. This time last year my daughter after going to bed perfectly suddenly started not going to bed and waking during the night. We let her in our bed for a couple of weeks simply to get some sleep. It works in the short term but is unsustainable. It all came to head and we started putting her back in bed no matter how many times she woke up, going to bed and during the night. It took three months to get back to normal but now, aged three and a half months she goes to bed at seven (hall light on and her door slightly open). Goes to sleep in ten mins and she usually wakes at six, six thirty and during christmas we started hitting seven o clock!
You have to keep at it, no matter how many times she gets out of bed put her back in without talking. I got very used to sitting at the top of the stairs.... I wish you luck, but things will improve.
We're having very similar problems with our 3 year old. He keeps coming in to our room and waking the missus (not me though - I sleep with plugs in 'cos the missus snores like a beast!) citing things like too hot/too cold/needs a wee/monsters in the cupboard and a big-bad wolf under the bed.
So far the only thing that works is my missus taking him back and stroking his head until he dozes off; as has been said, this has made a rod for her own back. I'm going to suggest the silent treatment tonight.
Freddyg - This is exactly the same as our daughter.
I'm going to try the silent treatment tonight (along with putting her to bed slightly later) and will report back to share stories tomorrow.
Will do the same - good luck!
jojoA1 - Member
Kids, in general, need waaaaaay more sleep than 'grown ups' and it is usual to need less and less as you age.
Sleep? What's that?
You too!
We had the same problem with my daughter and we just set a good routine of a warm milky drink after a nice hot bath everynight. As soon as that is done, off to bed.
If she got up, we put her back and repeated until she realised she wasn't going to win. It took nearly a month as she's a stubborn bugger but now all is fine.
Do not let holiday periods change the pattern either. Two weeks off at christmas could have ruined it all had we not stuck to it.
My 2yo is exactly the same currently, trouble is that my wife just lets her get in with us and whenever I try to suggest she'll be doing it for years to come, it just turns into a (sleep deprivation fueled) row.
So last night when I heard her coming in and scooped her straight up and back to her bed, she kicked up blue murder which woke the wife. Who in turn then sat briefly with her to calm her and prevent her waking the other one, and then ended up bringing her in with us anyway further dissipating the process I'd started. And hence caused another row this morning.
What should I do? Kill them both and then emigrate with my other daughter?
I'm no one to give advice (see my previous post) however a united front is crucial on this issue and every other one where the little darlings are concerned!
45 minutes in and she gets straight out of bed once I put her back...
Hark I hear her banging on thy bedroom door!!! Must dash!!
no "In the night garden" or no wine in the house?
Wife gave her loads of attention and a warm bath etc and put her to bed...
Making progress - worked out that I've put her to bed about 50-60 time in the last 50 minutes and now she is just crying behind her door rather than coming out...
Just got to keep her in bed now...
Slowly slowly catchy monkey or should that be slowly slowly sleepy monkey!!! 😆
Keep in there fella, chin up...
[i]now she is just crying behind her door rather than coming out... [/i]
bad, bad man. 👿
how do you feel now?
🙂
1 hour 20 minutes and I still haven't been brought a glass of wine by my wife!!! I feel annoyed as I've not been able to leave my post!
B
Crying behind the door and not coming out is a step toward her independantly going to bed. It's hard and you'll feel like crap but ignoring her will mean she gets bored and repeating the back to bed routing will show her you are the boss not her.
Just keep it up mate however hard it is and remember - no sleep doing this is better than no sleep and not making progress.
She is too young to undertand reasoning properly so explaining gets you no where. Keep on with the routing, bath, drink, bed and putting her backinwhen she wakes.
You WILL get there I promise. My sister is a child pshycologist - that's where I got this from. It REALLY works.
Seems that most of the suggestions hint at limiting the attention the child gets and hard work, which tbh has worked for my family. We have (Other than the usual changes like holidays and illness) had 7pm to 6.30am since both kids were 6wks old. I put this down to bloody good advice from the midwife, bloody mindedness from me and my wife (If you arent both 100% it undermines everything) and luck.
One other thing we make a rule is that unless its for a damned good reason, there are no changes to bed at 7pm. Doesnt matter if its their birthday, whatever, 7pm is the time they go to bed. I have seen me ask his friends to go home or our friends to leave as they have their kids with them because i know the disruption it causes. The benefit is we always have a calm bed time. My 20mth old daughter walks herself upto her bed, climbs in, gets a kiss goodnight and goes to sleep herself with a smile on her face.
Just woken up and no interuption overnight.
Took about 1.45 to get her to sleep. Finally managed it by standing by her door and putting her back in bed everytime her feet hit the floor. Then when she stopped getting out of bed I litterally just poked my head round the door, at increasing intervals (first 10sec, then 20secs then 40 secs then minute, etc) and she was off!!!
Not going to count my chickens just yet and will see what happens tonight - although I'm hopefully going out for a pint so I may not be as consistent as I hope if she wakes in the middle of the night!!!!
Good effort fella. Best of luck for tonight.
Well done!
Me and MrsG had a team talk about our plan of attack with MasterG. However, the little bugger slept through anyway!! Result! He must have heard us.
Well done Bushwacked! Good luck tonight!
Well its only taken 40 mins to get older daughter to sleep tonight Result!!!
But made the mistake of putting her to bed at the same time as the younger daugther and now trained younger daughter that crying keeps me coming in the room even if it is only to put older daughter back to bed!!!!
B
It's ok, they stop doing this by the time they hit their teens.
Been through this with 2 children, other 2 were saints. Tried all the tricks. Selective neglect seems to be most effective, although for a period I was an advocate for post-natal abortions.
Update on this - through the use of a reward chart she is now back to sleeping through the night from 7.30pm until 7.30am...
Thanks for the advice and support - its all good now!!!