[Closed] Advanced driving course

lots of funny gear selection, hesitating with lane changes and pulling out in front of someone at a roundabout.

Sounds like she needs more experience/confidence with the basics, rather than anything advanced.

(although I've never done an advanced driving course - maybe they address these things) ...

Women are allowed to drive now?

Sweet baby jebus! What is the world coming to?

Sounds like she needs more experience/confidence with the basics, rather than anything advanced.

She does lack general confidence... I think if she had some instruction in gear selection and overtaking it would make her realise that she knows how to do this stuff. The advanced courses I've seen aren't all J-turns and racing, they are just how to drive smoothly and safely on motorways and around busy towns.

Dave

also, it is a much easier sell to get her on an 'advanced driving course' than to say "you need to learn how to drive again".

Dave

Good luck with that - I suggested my other half could do with something similar and I was lucky to escape "intact". Be very careful how you approach it, I was a bit direct and it was definitely the wrong way!

🙂

Suggesting we both do it softened the blow somewhat.... I will see if she cuts my balls off tonight.

Whereabouts in the country are you ?

I did a Day, with the Father of a freind of mine who is an Ex police intructor and still does a lot of advanced driving tuition for a number of scenarios.

I got the day for an 18yr old relative of my Ex, as he had had a few near misses, and I went along too.
I learned so much, I went home absolutely shattered, mentally exhausted more than anything.
But it was hugely beneficial, mainly down to observation skills and judging speed more appropriately.
A fantastic day out for both of us, and I`d happily do more of it.
(I have also done similar days / training on a Motorcycle with equally good results)

cheltenham

Might be worth getting in touch with your local IAM group

http://www.iam.org.uk/groups/iam-groups-directory/detail/detail/85

course last a few weeks and all aspects of "normal" driving are assessed and feedback given.

Agree with nbt. Both of you hook up with the local IAM.

Might be a bit Far, he is Surrey Based

Try IAM and RoSPA (RoDAR).
Both aim to develop driving attitudes rather than skills. Takes a while though, certainly not a one day course. More like a commitment over several months.

In general I personally think you'd/I'd benefit more from skid-pan and a track day tuition than a IAM course.

For your missus- definitely a refresher course. I'm sure standard driving instructors can offer a few lessons to watch and iron out issues though.

You don't have to use a driving instructor before passing your test.

Have done the IAM test they assume that you are actually able to drive and not simply sitting there and operating the controls (no offence).

A lack of confidence will be definite disadvantage - I had to overtake a broken down lorry on a hump-backed bridge because the other options were either sitting there until it moved or turn round and go back.

buy her the book called roadcraft before she goes on the course to get the heads up and help her to understand the lingo - vanishing point blah blah

I've been looking at local driving instructors... quite a few of them do refresher courses.

They seem like a good idea, but not sure how I'll sell one to her.

Maybe arrange a skidpan day for us both and get her a refresher course before we go to 'get her confidence up'.

Dave

Sounds good.

Honestly- Skidpan would benefit anyone. Maybe once or twice in your life the car will skid, slide, kick out.

Try IAM and RoSPA (RoDAR).
Both aim to develop driving attitudes rather than skills. Takes a while though, certainly not a one day course. More like a commitment over several months.

This

You'll both learn stuff you didn't even know existed. And it's a lot cheaper than a one day course too. But it takes time, a bit if commitment and a willingness to learn.

She does lack general confidence...

Both of you go and do a Trackday, its good fun, you can explore the limits of the car in a relatively safe environment, and you`ll then know whether its a problem regarding technical skill in the car, or whether its more about Observation, planning etc on the road.

My Ex benefitted greatly (once she stopped screaming) when I demonstrated her cars ability on a loose surface / snow, then swapped seats and got her to do the same, she was about to spend her first season in the Alps and was quite frankly a Passenger in the car directing it in a general direction.

She was a long way from driving it, or being in control.

But knowing just how much further she could push it than she thought possible, made the "Normal driving" on tarmac so much better

Once you understand how it behaves beyond the limit of grip you are not so frightened of it, but you need to explore that in a safe environment to start with, rather than a downhill snow covered hairpin in the Alps 😉

Oh, and skid pan for someone that can't even find the right gear? You having a laff?

What's that going to teach you about observation, positioning, etc? Bugger all, that's what.

EDIT
Track day? No. Just no. Learn to drive slow before trying to go fast.
**shakes head and wanders off**

Im an emergency response blue light driver which qualifies me to be an IAM (Institue of Advanced Motorists) member. Before trying an advanced course the driver should already be demonstrating the aptitude for advanced driving and observation.

The problems youve highlighted would possibly be better addressed initially in a track environment where car control can be worked on. When car control is moved forward then start working on improving observations when driving on road.

Easy way of doing this without any courses is when driving get your other half to say out loud all hazards that she notices along a drive.

Eg "approaching roundabout 2 cars approaching from the right one from dead ahead, wait to clear then progress through junction." although feels weird at first this bring your observations on hugely with time.

The roadcraft book mentioned earlier is the drivers bible so weel worth purchasing.

Hope this helps a little

cr500dom - Member
Might be a bit Far, he is Surrey Based

alfabus - Member
cheltenham

Hora, shut up.

PP no.

NBT no.

For me, its about confidence. The driver needs not to think that the car in a sense is on the verge of out of control. That there is a definite point where it will let go and what it will do.

Those can be speeds that the OP's partner won't reach 99% of the time so already she'll feel more relaxed.

I'm against attaining qualifications/accreditations as a fix. I think you should look at the basics first and the persons mindset.

I bet the majority of drivers in the UK would freeze up if they were in a control situation or a close call with another car.

As said on TopGear once, in Finland you are taught from a very young age about control in all conditions as a basic requirement.

in Finland you are taught from a very young age about control in all conditions as a basic requirement.

What's that got to do with driving?

(-:

Went on a skidpan day years ago. Was really good fun, [i]but[/i] I'm not sure I really learnt very much from it apart from 'boy am I glad my modern car has ABS'. As there was a group of us we didn't use our own cars, so I learnt nothing about how my car handles. Think the only other thing I remember is that it's much more fun to skid rear-wheel drive (and much more dangerous as I almost knocked myself out)

(I had only been driving for a year or so at this point so that might be partly why I didn't get as much out of it)

You are as usual talking complete bollocks. I'm not saying a skid pan is useless, but it's not what the OP needs for his missus. She doesn't need to know how to push the car to its limits and then recover it - she needs to learn to read the road and respond accordingly. This may involve re-learning (or learning) how to control a car properly, which may be better in a closed environment rather than on the road - but at some point, she will need to be out on the road, as her problems seeem to be interaction with other road users.

I'm against attaining qualifications/accreditations as a fix. I think you should look at the basics first and the persons mindset.

You really do beggar belief sometimes. Top Gear is not the bible when it comes to all things automotive. Have you even attended an IAM Course? Can you explain what qualifications or accreditations it gives you, in place of real world experience? Where does the OP talk about "close calls"? This is NOT about how bad you are, it's about how another person drives. You cannot simply transplant what you want to do and what you enjoyed and assume that it will work for everyone.

The other half did her IAM course last year with her brother and dad, her dad is a driving instructor and ask if I wanted to do it at the same time, wish I did it now. She is was a good driver before albeit a touch aggressive with the brakes. The course was mainly held by retired cops in Warwick but the did go down the fosse so it might be more or less the same route.

[i]I think you should look at the basics first and the persons mindset.
[/i]

Those basics being how to drive a car quickly around a track, how to use the appropriate braking points, 'apex' a corner and control a front/rear/four-wheel skid? Yep, they're the basics needed for a nervous driver to be safe on the road, absolutely.

On

another

planet...

It will take time for her to learn gear shifting if she does not know it now.

An option to get rid of one headache is to get a car with automatic gear for her then re-learn the rest.

When I said 'funny gear selection', I meant being in an inappropriate gear, rather than not knowing how to change gear.

For example, she will pull away from stopped and immediately change into 2nd, now doing about 2 miles an hour, dropping the revs to almost nothing and rumbling along. As soon as the revs start to recover (to about 1500rpm), she'll dump it into 3rd and lose all the power again - this in a diesel; so it copes, but doesn't love it. It led to her stalling it pulling across a road (turning right) this morning.

When I questioned it, she said that was what her driving instructor had told her to do. She's been driving for 9 years, and I don't remember her doing that before, it seems to be a new habit.

Dave

I'd reiterate the suggestion to look for your local IAM group then - they address issues such as when to change gear as well as road position, and a course lasting several weeks will probably be cheaper than a half day on a track.

(Shrugs shoulders), I found that overstepping the mark and the experience of learning from it opens up and gives you such a good understanding of a car/your interaction with it.

Why does she have to undertake a IAM? Simple few refresher lessons with a professional Driving Instructor followed by a track course would be fine.

She could also just be very stressed at the moment...

alfabus - Member

When I said 'funny gear selection', I meant being in an inappropriate gear, rather than not knowing how to change gear.

Once that becomes a habit it will be very difficult to change (my friend's mum was the opposite, she never changed gear when needed). As suggested she might be better off with an automatic gear for long term safety and to get her to concentrate on the road rather than gear shifting.

If the ops missus is that bad how did she pass in the first place? or is she really old and doddery?

I'm an IAM Observer for Bath Group.

The IAM Skill for Life course costs £139 and she would get as much instruction and practice as she'd need to get her up to test standard (My average is 12 drives of about 2 hrs each over a maximum 6 month period). Plus the book, the chance to attend classroom sessions looking at the theory / meet other drivers in the same boat etc.

The IAM is such incredible value because it is run as a charity, by volunteers who give up their time because we want to improve driving standards.

Contrary to what's been said we take people of all standards. That often includes people who drive like your wife does. Her faults are common and easy to address. Talk to her rather than buy it as a 'surprise' but you might be surprised how quickly everyone becomes receptive to what we teach.

Doing it as a couple is also a really good idea. Not as a 'competition' but again since you'll be able to encourage and support eachother.

Your local group:

http://www.glosiam.org/

Once you take away the worry of what a car is going to do, its no longer relevant on the day to day drive.
This in turn frees up the brains ability to process the road hazard information being presented, rather than worring about "What is the car going to do in this situation"

Trackdays, skidpans etc are useful for a lot more than just "Going Fast"
Its also "Fun" which is easier to "Sell" rather than "Your driving scares me - you need some more tuition"

I`m a believer in both the Vehicle dynamics approach, and the roadcraft stuff as well, Having done both, especially on a motorcycle, the roadcraft is easier to concentrate on when you have more confidence in the behavior of the vehicle.
You stop worrying about have I got grip/is the bike going to slide/stop/turn etc and just relax into reading the road

If the ops missus is that bad how did she pass in the first place? or is she really old and doddery?

Haha, she is 28. She's really not that bad, just a bit lacking in confidence which means she hesitates at the crucial moments, so rather than making her intentions clear to other road users she gets herself into dodgy situations. She also has some bad habits, like the gear changing thing.

AnalogueAndy sounds like he's making the most sense. I'll talk to her tonight and see what she'd fancy doing. I am a bit hesitant to send her back to a normal driving instructor who will make her potter about at 5mph in a fiesta with her hands at 10 to 2 - the IAM stuff sounds much more like what she needs.

Thanks all, some very amusing arguments 🙂
Dave

Skid pans... track days... seriously?

No experience with IAM because I live locally and my group was less than enthusiastic, which is why I went down the RoSPA route. Both are similar, so check both out and ask for a free driving assessment (IAM certainly do this, RoSPA might cost £5).

Then you can choose on the instructor as the course is largely the same. RoSPA you have to re-test every 3 years and they have a 3 tier pass standard rather than pass/fail that IAM do.

What sbout getting her to do the pass plus

I have had nothing to do with IAM, pass + or any of the other organisations mentioned. However I am an advanced police driver and had weeks and weeks of training and assessment. Whenever I give my wife any constructive feedback on her observation, planning, position, smoothness or progress she punches me in the goolies.

Hope this helps?

IAM is the route I would go. My son did the course straight after passing his test and was the youngest member at the time. He did it for two reasons. 1) He was travelling 30mls a day to work and still did not feel confident in his driving
2) For his D of E. . 14yrs on and he says it was the best thing he did.
Regards some of the above comments re car control I can assure you all my auto test and road rallying experiencedid not do me any good driving around the mad roadways in and around the Manchester/Bury area at the weekend 🙄

Trekster around here you need to rely heavily on your forsight of other drivers...that worse case move you think they may pull next...they do and constant lane changes with no gaps up Chester road...

Whenever I give my wife any constructive feedback on her observation, planning, position, smoothness or progress

At least you are able to do this. Some of us have to keep our eyes shut tight (and hands together tightly sown) for the whole journey.

I've got Surfmatt's phone no. somewhere......

I am led to believe that the advanced police driving in Scotland no longer includes skid pan training, due to the stability control systems on modern cars that can react so much quicker than the driver. I guess cadence braking used to be included until ABS became standard.

Hora, are you a driving god?

I suspect you are not, no matter what you might [i]think[/i] about yourself, so please just stop making irrelevant suggestions.

[b]Attitude[/b] plays a big part in driving well, not the ability to [i]talk[/i] a good drive and fantasise about your extreme car control skills (or even mountain bike skills)on various internet forums.

IAM/Rospa are good organisations that aim to get people to a high standard of safety whilst making reasonable progress.

I did the IAM motorbike course (and a Corporate IAM driving course) and found it worthwhile, even if I was aware of much of the content beforehand. Being observed and tested is a useful experience in itself. Some people might be afraid of what they might hear.

By all means disagree with some of their dogma/mantras, but they teach a solid, safe method of driving -If not necessarily exciting, dynamic or particularly 'advanced' in the sense of extreme vehicle handling.

I have recently done some courses, Pass Plus, Drive and survive and a skid pan session. Despite being aimed at new drivers ( approx 2 years after passing) I think the pass plus would be ideal for her as it irons out bad habits and builds confidence.

For someone who isn't comfortable and flowing/smooth with the fundamentals of driving, and there are a lot of drivers who fit into that category, following a systematic approach (as per IAM/Rospa) can be a big help.

Skid control is very useful (look how many drivers were absolutely hopeless when it snowed during the past 2 winters), but better to first understand what gear/rpm you should be using and learn not to be a hazard on the road.

Racing lines, late braking left-foot-braking, heel-toe, hand-brake turns, drifting etc. are all great for people who are interested in driving and like to push it a bit, but not necessarily that useful for someone who doesn't really understand the basic mechanics of the car or have an awareness of what is going on around them.

I think the expression is: Learn to walk before you learn to run.

Where do you make your assumptions about people? Am I driving God? Mostly definitely not. Neither are you. Its an opinion and when did I talk about drifting, hand brake turns or heel and toe? You also completely missed my suggestions about refresher courses with a normal driving Instructor didn't you? Why do people have to go for Gold on qualifications when a refresher may well do?

Really, as with nbt earlier, sometimes people on STW get ahead of themselves after taking a few courses on a particular subject.

The basics of driving are driving. First and foremost. [b]Confidence[/b] for a nervous or unsure driver plays a massive part. The OP mentioned hesitation.

If you don't like my opinion fine but who cares if you have been on a Corporate IAM course? Does that mean you can lecture and make assumptions? No.

hora, stop talking out of your arse will you?!? For the OP, the IAM route is probably the best route. And as I think you suggested, doing it together is a good idea. We'd probably all benefit a lot from something like this (apart from hora of course).

This thread is missing SurfMat. That is all.

Really, as with nbt earlier, sometimes people on STW get ahead of themselves after taking a few courses on a particular subject.

Hello Mr Pot, have you met Mr Kettle?

Where did I "get ahead of myself"?

The basics of driving are driving. First and foremost. Confidence for a nervous or unsure driver plays a massive part. The OP mentioned hesitation.

Correct. Where would a skid pan help with this? Your suggestion of a refresher was noted but was not in your first post, and would not be as cost effective as a RoSPA or IAM course 🙄

BTW I haven't been on a corporate IAM course. Does that mean I'm not allwed to say anything at all?

I am partly coming at this from the wrong angle. My angle is she knows all the basics, there is something underlining maybe. My comment on track day is wrong as it gives the wrong message. I mean refresher and skidpan - possibly to give back some confidence and remind her.

Good day. I don't think we should spend forever arguing. Its not good for us 🙂

hora - Member

Where do you make your assumptions about people?

Like quite a few people on here, I know you in real life... 8)

[i]Somebody[/i] was talking about track days and skid pans earlier. Somebody else made further references to track days.

I'm making no claims about my skills, but I do have experience of IAM, on 2 wheels and on 4, which you presumably don't.

IAM & Rospa are a good thing, and a starting point, if not the complete answer to everyone's motoring dreams.

My angle is she knows all the basics, there is something underlining maybe.

Knowing the mechanics of making a car move does not make you a driver. It's the roadcraft that needs to be worked on.

I don't think we should spend forever arguing. Its not good for us

And on that we can agree. We can even agree to disagree. Back to work for me

Like quite a few people on here, I know you in real life...

But your making an assumption on that. I've not seen you for going on 4yrs and even then it was on a few rides over the space of circa a year.

It'd be lovely to go on rides again though 🙂

And on that we can agree. We can even agree to disagree. Back to work for me

[i]Like quite a few people on here, I know you in real life...[/i]

Hora Wrote: [b]
But your making an assumption on that (?)[/b].

ps. We last met about 2 years ago (you turned up!) ...I remember it as you were wearing a Flecktarn camo German army jacket -for maximum outline distortion and maximum invisibility to drivers- to cycle on the main road into Manchester when it was wet, foggy and dark... Just saying like 😉

Kinda blended in didn't I. That was the Christmas Market I think.

Maybe you need a [i]Cycling Proficiency[/i] refresher?

😆

BTW your (Pacific branded) TV is still going strong in the spare room.