For anyone struggling with addiction, or moreover for friends/family trying to support someone fighting addiction (or just being around them), I'd suggest that this is mandatory viewing.
Evan isn't your stereotypical junkie. He's intelligent, well regarded, a regular guest in various podcast / youtube circuits. Ie, far more like just your regular human being going through difficulties, rather than a caricature the media would happily portray to us. It's a stark and heartfelt insight into how "normal" people can get themselves into a mess.
Please watch it. It could happen to any of us.
There's a good Guardian article on it too.
https://www.theguardian.com/wellness/article/2024/aug/30/feel-free-sober-drinking-dependency-kratom
I came across that the other day. Good video. Very insightful. Never heard of the substance itself before.
Illegal in the UK. Another of those "over there" things like prescription pain kilers, guns, barmy legal system, crazy health care costs....
Another of those "over there" things like prescription pain kilers, guns, barmy legal system, crazy health care costs....
And yet as a non-drinker myself I am really impressed that only 54% of Americans drink alcohol, far less than in the UK.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/693362/drinking-rate-new-low-alcohol-concerns-surge.aspx
The US is a strange country imo in which many bad aspects are often cancelled out by some very good aspects. Another example is gun ownership, we often hear, quite rightly, the negative aspect of the United States constitutional right to own guns and yet although legally entitled to own guns up to 70% of Americans don't. I wonder what the figure is/would be in other countries?
Kratom is apparently banned in 7 US states btw.
although legally entitled to own guns up to 70% of Americans don't.
"Up to"? Up to 100% of Americans don't. 😁
The last time I looked at US gun stats,(*) around 50% of households possessed a firearm. Gun ownership per capita was around 1:1, so those who own a gun tend to own guns.
(* - Granted this was a couple of years ago, probably when it was discussed on STW last. I doubt there's been a massive swing either way since, though.)
"Up to"?
Yup because that is the highest figure that I could find. So yes up to 70%, not 80, 90, or 100%
I’d say 44% of house holds having a gun and 32% of individuals is quite high. It’s something like 38% for white Americans and lower for all other groups
Worth noting is addiction doesn’t just mean a substance and like I say, some people don’t realise they have an addiction.
So anyway most Americans don't own guns, which was my point, ie the minority who own guns are not as representative of American attitudes towards guns as many people seem to think.
And your point is relevant to the thread subject how?
Ordinarily I'd be right with you on a thread drift if not a cause of it myself. But this is a pretty serious topic which I hoped would open a discussion. If you want to talk about guns and/or Americans being weird might I respectfully request that you go start your own thread please?
Lots of things can become a dependency, take gambling as another example. America does seem to have an odd relationship with alcohol, though, I’ve read about people being reported to their employer just for having a drink with a friend out of work hours, and their beers tend to be a) lower alcohol content than ours, and b) sold very much colder, so there’s little actual flavour to the drink. I used to drink Michelob, an American lager style of beer, with a very pleasant fruity flavour, the bottles were about 4.5-5 abv.
When I went to Vail back in ‘94, a bunch of us used to go to a bar/cantina just down the road from the hotel, and buy a pitcher of Michelob, the abv there was around 3.2, significantly lower in alcohol. And not as much flavour as the export version.
The constant references to us Brits drinking ‘warm’ beer is another weird thing, cask ale should be cellar temperature, ie cool, but Americans seem to have this obsession with beer that’s really chilled, possibly to cover up the fact that it doesn’t taste of anything - might as well drink pints of iced water. 🤷🏼♂️
And your point is relevant to the thread subject how?
Blimey I thought it was obvious. We were discussing a substance that is banned here in the UK but not in the United States, well not at a federal level. So I pointed out (totally unaware that it might cause a problem) the peculiarity of Americans often taking very sensible attitudes towards things which are perfectly legal.
I gave the example of Americans having (imo) a much better attitude towards alcohol than Brits. I then casually pointed out that most Americans actually also have a very sensible attitude to guns despite it being legal to own them and people's perception in the UK :
The US is a strange country imo in which many bad aspects are often cancelled out by some very good aspects. Another example is gun ownership
You then decided to make some weird pedantic comment about "up to 100%" of Americans don't own guns and when I clarify that my point is that most Americans don't own guns you accuse me of thread drift.... genius!
Stupid minimum character rule….
their beers tend to be a) lower alcohol content than ours, and b) sold very much colder, so there’s little actual flavour to the drink. I used to drink Michelob, an American lager style of beer, with a very pleasant fruity flavour, the bottles were about 4.5-5 abv.
When I went to Vail back in ‘94, a bunch of us used to go to a bar/cantina just down the road from the hotel, and buy a pitcher of Michelob, the abv there was around 3.2, significantly lower in alcohol. And not as much flavour as the export version.
The constant references to us Brits drinking ‘warm’ beer is another weird thing, cask ale should be cellar temperature, ie cool, but Americans seem to have this obsession with beer that’s really chilled, possibly to cover up the fact that it doesn’t taste of anything - might as well drink pints of iced water. 🤷🏼♂️
That's a stereotypical view of American beer that hasn't been true for a long time. It's only true if you were to limit your buying to cheap mass produced lager, but exactly the same is also true here and everywhere else. There was a nationwide craft beer revival around 15 or 20 years ago and it is very easy to find good (some very, very good) beer. There are microbreweries and brewpubs everywhere and larger breweries which sell similar beers nationwide. Hoppy American IPAs predominate and they are typically stronger than British beers. Most seem to hover around 7-8% ABV. Other styles are easily available and I've had some excellent stouts, pilsners, porters, bitters and weisebeers in the US. All served at the correct temperature I might add! I would go so far as to say they have overtaken us in the range and quality of beers and their widespread availability.
Sorry for the derail Cougar, I'm back in my box now.
Another of those "over there" things like prescription pain kilers, guns, barmy legal system, crazy health care costs....
The US is a strange country imo in which many bad aspects are often cancelled out by some very good aspects. Another example is gun ownership, we often hear, quite rightly, the negative aspect of the United States constitutional right to own guns and yet although legally entitled to own guns up to 70% of Americans don't. I wonder what the figure is/would be in other countries?
In the UK we're legally entitled to own guns and yet less than 1% do so. There has to be a reason to deny a shotgun license so as a normal person it's not difficult to get one.
In the UK we're legally entitled to own guns
As I wrote my previous posts I did wonder whether I should refer to the US protected constitutional right to keep and bear arms but decided that this wouldn't be necessary as everyone would know exactly what I was talking about.
The US constitutional right to own guns which are specifically designed to kill people is fairly unique and often the subject of much derision globally, as is their often laxed attitude with regards to the control of substances (marijuana is legal in almost half of US states) so I mentioned that the most Americans actually have a very sensible attitude to guns despite people's perceptions.
Which gets back to my original point that the US is a strange country imo in which many bad aspects are often cancelled out by some very good aspects.
So yeah Kratom is perfectly legal in the United States but this week the UK took the extraordinary decision to suspend intelligence sharing with the US because of Trump's targeting of alleged drug vessels. Go figure!
Well another thread ruined on something that is quite serious too.
As an ex addict myself this is a serious subject. Yet surprise surprise the usual culprit has decided to hijack and sideline the thread for zero good reason ..
Well another thread ruined
It's hardly "ruined" though is it? There is no reason not to continue discussing the dangers posed by Kratom which tbh I hadn't heard of previously. Luckily it doesn't seem to be a problem in the UK.
Btw I very much agree your suggestion that addiction doesn’t just mean a substance as pointed gambling is an obvious example, although I do believe that it can result in chemical changes occuring in the brain which obviously has the same effect as taking a substance.
It also reminds of seeing many years ago an addiction expert being interviewed on the telly saying that no matter what the substance the body deals with the actual physical dependency in a matter of two or three days, however the psychological dependency lasts for a considerable length of time and is the real problem.
I once knew a heroin addict who desperately wanted to end her addiction, she was regularly arrested for petty crime and received custodial sentences during which time her physical addiction to heroin ended, but as soon as she was released she went straight back onto heroin because of the psychological addiction, it was the only way that she could cope with life.
She died of an overdose aged 20.
The substance can make it harder due to the withdrawal symptoms but the addiction draw is very much the same reason. There is a great YouTube video on it which I’ve posted on here before, I’ll see if I can find it.
There's a guy on YT who "tests" psychedelics etc and I believe at one point he was addicted to Kratom big time. (Guy called Adam YT site is PsychedSubstance, some interesting vids actually)
Fascinating that this stuff is a mix of kratom AND kava (kava itself is freakin' disgusting gag juice, if you haven't tried it, best avoid!)
It also reminds of seeing many years ago an addiction expert being interviewed on the telly saying that no matter what the substance the body deals with the actual physical dependency in a matter of two or three days,
Well that's bollocks for a start. I assume they weren't much of an expert in chronic alcoholism.
Well that's bollocks for a start. I assume they weren't much of an expert in chronic alcoholism.
Yeah, it would have to be a pretty mild addiction for 2 or 3 days.
Yeah I just googled it and apparently:
Physical withdrawal symptoms generally peak around 48-72 hours after the last drink and can last up to two weeks, while psychological symptoms may persist for several months.
I guess she was talking about the peak and thereafter the psychological addiction becomes the main issue. It was a very long time ago that I saw the interview so I can't quite remember the details but it was then that it struck me how powerful the psychological aspect is.
powerful the psychological aspect is.
Very powerful particularly because it’s the psychological ‘fix’ that is the draw to the the addiction. For me they were to try and drown out thoughts and visions, worked while the substance was in my blood stream but once it wasn’t I usually felt way worse.
As an ex addict myself this is a serious subject. Yet surprise surprise the usual culprit has decided to hijack and sideline the thread for zero good reason ..
everyone has to get their buzz somewhere 😉
sorry i know it's serious really, have some friends who have suffered quite badly with various drugs/ alcohol others who brushed it off easily, have a mate who uad to helplessly watch his brother drink himself to death, yet he still drinks what i consider far too much.
also have a friend who is big into his wellness new age stuff and because hes very wealthy its not seen as the same thing, he doesn't see the parallels because hes into 'natural' substances
I find the topic of addiction fascinating and terrifying in equal measure. I’m very fortunate to have never been in that position but, for a reason I don’t really understand, I’ve always thought I would be particularly vulnerable to gambling addiction. For that reason, I’ve only ever placed two bets in life (I lost both).
i have so much respect for people who come out the other side of addiction.
I’m very fortunate to have never been in that position but, for a reason I don’t really understand,
Some people are just predisposed to it I reckon..I've always struggles with ocd, anxiety etc, so I was a candidate ripe for some kind of addiction.
Coke was my vice, mountains of it. I'll be staying well clear of that juice in the OPs vid
For me they were to try and drown out thoughts and visions,
Yup I have always assumed that my father's whiskey abuse was due to the reoccurring thoughts and undoubtedly lifelong nightmares from his combat experiences and the deaths of so many people close to him, it probably gave him temporary relief from things which he could never bring himself to talk about.
"Luckily" whiskey addiction is so damaging that it led to the inevitable alcoholic breakdown which resulted in him completely giving up the stuff but not before it left him with some brain damage.
Btw as a footnote it is disappointing that even when discussing serious topics some people can't seem to resist personal digs at other people. Still hey-ho I guess that's STW for you. Carry on.....
Yeah sounds likely Ernie and sorry to hear he never beat it. My outcome would have been similar or another permanent way to end them. Best way for me for me was to remove the main cause which was work. It has helped big time and took over a year to break away fully from alcohol and cocodamol as a relief. I still drink but for pleasure and very controlled, although do every now and then have a good session but with friends or my Mrs for a day out.
On topic, also with the animations.
I don't entirely agree with the content, but the caution applies.
Also, OP's video caught my attention as well. Kratom seems to have had some kind of return to more public attention at this time, and I even found myself considering trying it although I like to think I'd have some some more research... To that end I'd like to mention erowid, still a vital source of actual user feedback
https://erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Kratom_Addiction_Habituation.shtml
Evan's posted a follow-up video in response to, well, depressingly predictable Internet comments.
I watched that last night. Very worthwhile follow up.
So, who here is addicted to their phone
I gave the example of Americans having (imo) a much better attitude towards alcohol than Brits
In my experience (having an American spouse) drinking is more of an activity in its own right, rather than just a beverage - at least in the conservative Mid-West. People go to bars to get drunk or to pick up sexual partners not to socialise, generally speaking. The idea of having one or two drinks as part of your normal evening or meal is not as prevalent as it is here. I don't think this is actually a better attitude.
for a reason I don’t really understand, I’ve always thought I would be particularly vulnerable to gambling addiction. For that reason, I’ve only ever placed two bets in life
I had a go at spread betting on the stock market once, some 20 years ago. I was absolutely buzzing. I couldn't sleep, waiting for the markets to open next day, the adrenaline was so high. I was like a kid on Christmas eve.
In the end, nothing happened and I lost £20 or whatever, but I was so spooked by how exciting some part of my brain seemed to find it that I've never really gambled since. It was scary stuff, I can totally see how people could get addicted to that.
I've heard about these 'loot boxes' in computer games that sound pretty disturbing, on that front.
So, who here is addicted to their phone
Marginally, maybe. I've noticed a feeling of "tetchiness" a couple of times if I've not been able to get onto my phone (or computer) to check out something-or-other For instance, you're engaged in some sort of dialogue and waiting to see a response. On the other hand, I can disappear into the hills for a couple of days and not care.
I certainly know folk who are addicted to exercise (I'm close). I guess there is a dopamine thing going on there but for some it's also about body image and/or competitiveness
This forum. 20 years of bans, insults, derision, warnings, reading stuff that's plain wrong, being misquoted, being misrepresented, judged, criticised, vilified... . And yet when I sit down with a cup of coffee after a bike ride or whatever what do I do - compulsively open the STW window to find out what you lot have been up to.
And we've even tried an intervention 😉
I wish I could get addicted to exercise. The best I can do is Monster Munch and ice cream.
I got 5 mins in and started thinking, Ooh, I need to try some of this. I have an addictive personality. It's pretty wild you can buy something like that over the counter. Addiction is grim.
I also think there's definitely a correlation between addiction to substances and addiction to exercise. I know which has been a healthier outlet for me.
Just came across this interview on the BBC Archive Instagram account, but here's the Youtube version, as it embeds better.
Matthew Perry repeatedly telling a unwilling-to-learn-or-listen Peter Hitchens that his argument "it's just will power" is wrong.
Coming up next, Peter tells people with clinical depression that they just need to cheer up a bit.
How many of us - not addicts - have gone out for "a drink" and staggered home shitfaced at 2am? Alcohol's USP is that it lowers inhibitions so, as Matt said, the first drink is a choice but much beyond that the next drink is the last one talking. He lost the room when he started talking about allergies though, wholly unsurprising that Peter leapt on that nonsense.
Never trust the opinion of anyone with a book to sell.
l don't know about the allergy concept for alcoholism. My brain wasn't sure and just said we'll skip over that part! Plus I can partially frame my experience of alcohol leading largely to me being ill when drinking to points where others appear fine as maybe allergy. Maybe useful conceptually for looking at ones relationship with the stuff. It's not like saying it's an allergy lessens the seriousness of alcoholism, plenty of allergies are life threatening.
I'm not arguing that it is, as I don't know without actually dedicating time to researching it, so can't just take your word for it either (nor dismiss it).
It was more the impassioned argument against alcoholism being merely subject to will power in which i found value in the clip, and the comedy of their reactions to Hitchens.
There are some useful links to articles in this thread that explain the effects of “that first drink”
Sorry, link doesn’t want to present itself-
it’s The STW Sobriety Thread
I found the articles useful..
It's not like saying it's an allergy lessens the seriousness of alcoholism
No, but it gives people like Hitchens a fulcrum in a debate.
I read an argument over linguistics the other day where one party went "I think I'll trust my French degree thanks, love." The other replied, "I AM French." That's what I'm seeing here too.
I'm not arguing that it is, as I don't know without actually dedicating time to researching it, so can't just take your word for it either (nor dismiss it).
If you're allergic to anything as an alcoholic, it's not drinking.
I've read a few things about addiction (and successfully quit a couple of things), and in a lot of cases the psychological addiction is harder to shift than the physical addiction. As long as you feel like you're "giving up" something, it becomes a matter of will power and you will always feel like it's a struggle. It was often your will power that kept you doing the thing even when you knew it was bad for you.
The Allen Carr method for giving up smoking (and other substances) and Craig Beck on alcohol, to name two examples of many, basically rely on convincing yourself that you don't want the thing. They're quite open about it and it's why quitting becomes "easy" because it's not about gradually cutting down, depriving yourself and then relying on will power. Of course it's not easy, but when the switch happens in your head, you no longer feel like you're "giving up" the thing, you feel like you don't want it.
I'm always wary of evangelistic ex-smokers, ex-alcoholics or whatever, but I know for me when I quit smoking, the moment I realised I actually didn't want to smoke any more, it became a matter of sitting out the relatively-short (48hr?) physical adaptation period, then adjusting the rest of my thinking to remind myself that I wasn't depriving myself. In the same way, I wasn't "depriving myself" of stabbing myself in the leg, I just didn't want to do it. So I didn't do it.
I _know_ it is not easy, and many people struggle with addiction for years, or a lifetime. But if you're struggling, and you can find a system or a process in which you re-realise that the thing you're addicted to is actually doing nothing for you except keeping you addicted, and that helps you re-wire your thoughts so that you no longer find that thing attractive or desirable, stopping that thing becomes much "easier" than having to continually fight the feeling that you've given up something you love.
(kava itself is freakin' disgusting gag juice, if you haven't tried it, best avoid!)
Aw it's not that bad, and it does result in a pleasant mellow-but-not-high feeling. At least if you stick to one or two*. But that is drinking the juice from freshly macerated kava root where it it grown in the South Pacific, which is quite bitter but not foul (though it does look it).
So my advice is the opposite, if you find yourself in a kava producing part of the world, find a local who knows the ropes and visit a kava bar with them. The bar will offer "wash your mouth" snacks to get rid of the taste, and facilities are provided for spitting. Quite different from an alcohol bar and rather fun.
I have tried instant kava and that was indeed foul.
NB it is illegal to import or possess kava products in the UK, which is unfortunate. It is no more addictive than alcohol I am told.
*Strengths vary, some places you may need more.