[Closed] acupuncture

Had it once for tennis elbow, after ultrasound hadn't done much - seemed to stir everything up for it to start healing (I'd had it several months by that point). Most bizarre bit was a needle in the web of the thumb/first finger - felt incredibly hot - another guy at work had a similar experience but almost fainted from it!

Oh dear she siad she was going to go into the thumb/finger web on my Friday appointment.
Felt a bit light headed with them in my back - could be hitting the deck!

Had lots, found it very good for certain injuries

As a treatment it's never been shown to have any effect other than that of a placebo.

I did try it once though for a knee injury and it didn't have any effect.

I had it last year before my wife and I went for IVF. I thought, and continue to think, that it is a whole load of rubbish. I only went along with it to give my wife the 'placebo' effect. I felt no different (light-headedness etc) afterwards. The only sensation I had was worry that the woman had forgotten about a needle and I was gonna rip it out as I got dressed.

I have had - and continue to have, for that matter - acupuncture for ongoing muscular and nerve problems in my back/pelvis, with excellent results.
It's obviously not for everyone, but it has worked for me.
Personally, I would see a proper Chinese doctor who actually knows his stuff, rather than a GP or physio who does 10 minutes here or there.

Earlier this year my back muscles went into spasm, so badly I ended up in A&E almost begging them for pain relieving drugs. After beign prescribed two type of prescription pain killer and muscle relaxing drugs I could just about walk after a week.
Off to have some accupuncture and after the first session I was able to bend over and touch my toes. Oh I also got the light-headed thing, a lot like beign a bit stoned/drunk but pleasant none-the-less.

I have had acupuncture for a knee injury, I was very sceptical but it worked wonders. I also found the light headedness but after it settled and I'd had a few sessions it was great.

I've had accupuncture before, mainly to relax my back. I got a sensation similar to that I get before pins and needles, like blood rushing around under the skin. My back felt better after.

I was under the impression that there was real evidence for acupuncture working with chronic pain and muscle spasm. Its certainly one of the few " alternative" medicines that is frequently used by western trained doctors.

I have had it a couple of times and found it to be incredibly powerful. The lightheadedness and feeling of heat is par for the course I believe

TJ the last study I saw (A few months ago) was for back pain although I'm not sure if it was chronic or accute. People were split into four groups. All four groups received the normal treatment for back pain.

Group 1 received no further treatment (the control group)
Group 2 received "real" accupuncture
Group 3 received "sham" accupunture with fake needles
Group 4 received "sham" accupunture with real needles but put in the wrong place.

Groups two, three and four all had better outcomes than group one but there was no difference in the outcomes [i]between[/i] these three groups. This points to a placebo effect as if accupuncture was effective then group 2 should have a better outcome than both 3 & 4.

Fair enough - that certainly points to placebo. I thought thre was better evidence fo it than that but its a while ago I looked into it.

i have ims accupuncture for years.

its works big time

Actually group 1 received normal medical care, all three "acupuncture" groups improved significantly over group 1.
[url= http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/169/9/858 ]abstract[/url]
The real argument raised by that research is 'what part of the treatment has the theraputic effect?'
It can be easy (and tiresome) to go through the arguments about placebo over intention, but I think it is best to take the pragmatic view that this study suggests acupuncture is more effective than usual medical treatment for lower back pain.
But then I would say that, being an acupuncturist 🙂

i've had acupuncture a lot and think its great. sometimes you can have a bit of a reaction after it - i.e pain gets worse, but it should calm down by the next day (or at least, that's my experience of it)

tonto I'm assuming that your post was directed at me so I'll respond to your points as if it was.

Actually group 1 received normal medical care, all three "acupuncture" groups improved significantly over group 1.

That's not actually correct, all groups received normal medical care. Granted the abstract doesn't explicitly state this however this discussion on that particular paper goes into more detail. I don't have access to this full paper myself so I am relying on the blogs of others.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=492

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=500

but I think it is best to take the pragmatic view that this study suggests acupuncture is more effective than usual medical treatment for lower back pain.

That would not be a correct assessment of the study. It would be wrong to say that acupuncture is more effective than the usual medical care as [b]everyone[/b] in the study, no matter what sort of acupunture was applied, received the usual medical care. It wasn't a variable. For that conclusion to be reached there would have to have been a group which received acupuncture but no usual care. There was no such group in this study.

As I said before the outcome of this study shows that acupunture does not perfrom better than a placebo. There is of course a separate debate as to whether or not placeobs should be used as an [i]additional[/i] treatment but that is a totally separate issue.

..And it's probably easier to use real needles than fake ones? - So it could be worth doing. (Never been there myself mind). Anything which causes someone normal to nearly pass out must be having a very strong subliminal effect.

I was at the Doctor once having a rip in my hand sewn up, I nearly fainted when she started sewing, and I always thought I was the unfazed type. Certainly made me feel very strange, and if it was supposed to be doing me some good, then I'd sure have been looking for it.

I have had acupuncture loads of times. Some of the results have been quite staggering, on other occasions it has been less successful. As already suggested, I wouldn't go to anyone other than a traditional Chinese acupuncturist. IMO, it is impossible for it to do you any harm (as long as only disposable needles are used)

i have a very similiar injury and after 8 months of no lifting and limited walking, and after lots of physio, 2 surgical consultaions,sports massage,chiropractor and hydrotherapy nothing had helped
so i tried accupuncture the first visit relieved a lot of tension and pain the next one a lot less and teh next 4 weekly visits nothing happened i am still walking wounded

Given they use it on dogs, horses and other animals now which aren't going to react to placebos and works very well on these there must be a little something in it.

Given they use it on dogs, horses and other animals now which aren't going to react to placebos and works very well on these there must be a little something in it.

If there is something in it then why does it not show up in blinded trials?

Also, are you sure that that animals don't react to the placebo effect? The certainly respond to human interaction.

the first visit relieved a lot of tension and pain the next one a lot less and the next 4 weekly visits nothing happened

That's interesting, because I've always been led to believe in the accumulative effect of acupuncture.

are you sure that that animals don't react to the placebo effect? The certainly respond to human interaction.

I can't imagine that sticking needles into a dog can do much psychologically, other than cause them stress.

I can't imagine that sticking needles into a dog can do much psychologically, other than cause them stress.

True but what about all the attention that the dog would get from it's owner afterwards?

In any case the point about animals is irrelvant. Even if a treatment (alternative or otherwise) is found to be effective in an animal, that in no way guarantess that it will be effective in humans.

Homeopathy works on animals as well - placebo effect for sure.

I am fairly sure that acupuncture has been shown in some double blind studies to have an effect.

NICE is suggesting it is useful in chronic back pain. Googling finds a fair few studies that show effects. I haven't looked closely at theses studies and I would say a healthy sceptisim is needed.

"Conclusions. This study showed that active acupuncture was more effective than sham acupuncture in decreasing the symptom scores for persistent allergic rhinitis and increasing the symptom-free days. No serious adverse effect was identified. A large-scale study is required to confirm the safety of acupuncture for children."

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/5/1242

[url= http://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/158752?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed ]and one that shows no effect[/url]

However reading around the best conclusion I can draw is that its worthy of more investigation but the studies are done so far are often poorly constructed and not rigourous.

[url= http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band105/b105-2.html ]analysis of a cochrane review [/url] which concluded ( the cochrane review) Overall, the existing evidence supports the value of acupuncture for the treatment of idiopathic headaches. However, the quality and amount of evidence are not fully convincing. There is an urgent need for well-planned, large-scale studies to assess the effectiveness and cost-effectiveness of acupuncture under real-life conditions.'

Thanks for your comments everyone. I am aware of the placebo effect, so do not feel I will fall for that. No change in the pain really. Had the second session today so will have to see how it goes. To be honest ready to try anything.

I can't help thinking I'd feel a bit of a prick if I ever went for acupuncture.

I did!

Only a small one though!

worked for me - placebo or not.

I quite enjoy it - afterwards. During it's a git.

The feeling is similar to the feeling I used to get coming off the field after a hard physical game of rugby where I'd played well.

Strangely that's exactly how you should feel according to the western descriptions of the mechanism at work - I can't fathom the Chinese description at all though.

I also enjoy steroid injections into joints, up my spine etc.