MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Listening to Radio 4 this week I was surprised to hear that abortion is illegal in Northern Ireland.
Trump's signing that no money will go to any charity that supports abortion seems to carry quite some support in the US.
Personally I don't think anyone but the pregnant women should get to decide.
Personally I don't think anyone but the pregnant women should get to decide.
Absolutely 100% in agreement.
Also 100% agree. It's a decision for the woman and nobody else. I too didn't realise that it is still illegal in N.I
Agree 99.99999999%. I think there have been a handful cases where it was determined that the woman had insufficient mental awareness to understand what was happening. It's a very dangerous line to cross though given how that could be manipulated.Personally I don't think anyone but the pregnant women should get to decide.
Twelve pages.
Personally I don't think anyone but the pregnant women should get to decide.
You're right, of course. Whatever your views on abortion, surely doing it clinically is preferable to a bottle of Detol and a coat hanger down a back street somewhere.
Not all that surprising that it's illegal in NI, it's a country that spent decades killing each other up over an argument about which two slightly different versions of the same religion they should all be following. Every sperm is sacred (because, free new believers) and all that.
I think there have been a handful cases where it was determined that the woman had insufficient mental awareness to understand what was happening. It's a very dangerous line to cross though given how that could be manipulated.
Good point, but that's cause for regulation rather than an outright ban of course. There needs to be measures in place to protect vulnerable fringe cases.
I disagree.
Twelve pages.
That should do it.
Abortion should be illegal and woman who get one should be prosecuted. The only way a woman should be allowed to have an abortion is if a man decides she can or indeed orders her to have one. Something like that anyway, seems to be the general gist of the way things are going.
It's a horrible thing to have to consider and I can't imagine the turmoil that women in that situation feel. But the only person who should make the decision is the person who is pregnant.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35980195 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35980195[/url]
Abortion should be illegal and woman who get one should be prosecuted. The only way a woman should be allowed to have an abortion is if a man decides she can or indeed orders her to have one. Something like that anyway, seems to be the general gist of the way things are going.
That needs massive *irony* tags around it
km79 - good try but you're no davidtaylforth 🙂
There is evidence to suggest that Trump's executive order intended to stop abortions will in fact do the opposite
Wasn't meant to be a troll, just a comment on the direction a significant amount seem to be moving us towards over the last couple years.
From the UK. If abortion had been more freely available at the time of my conception, I would most likely have been aborted.
It seems to me it would have been generally better all round if I had been for the people involved at the time and for all the consequent lives affected by my conception.
My parents were warm to me as a child and I grew up with them. I have no guilt at existing, as none of the consequences or actions at the time were my choices. I feel sad for the people in the situation at the time. If my parents had been able to abort me I would not have missed being alive, as I would never have experienced the world.
I fully support responsible, emotionally counseled abortion.
Listening to Radio 4 this week I was surprised to hear that abortion is illegal in Northern Ireland.
I don't think that's strictly true, as per Ireland (ie Republic) it's available in limited circumstances. It is strange to me the Republic had a Referendum of same sex marriage (passed easily) but they don't have one on abortion. I believe abortions are difficult to get in Spain too.
Do i agree with the restrictions ? No.
It's a very odd situation. People try to impose their religious or personal beliefs on another with blanket bans rather than allowing discussion and choice. In many areas where abortion is prohibited or restricted DIY or backstreet attempts cause great harm. Also if the mother does not want the child or is unable to care for it then why force them to have it?
The people campaigning against abortion are normally just that. Against abortion not pro life. If they were pro life they would support public healthcare, benefits for mothers (leave from work and money), social housing support, better workplace regulation, decent (and safe) schools etc.
Sorry for the rant but every second advert I see since Trumps order seems to be about how wonderful it is to put your unplanned baby up for adoption...
cornholio98 - MemberThe people campaigning against abortion are normally just that. Against abortion not pro life. If they were pro life they would support public healthcare, benefits for mothers (leave from work and money), social housing support, better workplace regulation, decent (and safe) schools etc.
Yup. And there's also the strange correlations between pro-life and pro-death penalty, pro-life and pro-military intervention. Life is important til you're born. Except even that's not simple because lots of pro-lifers are against affordable healthcare.
The Northern Ireland thing baffles me. To make it even more unjust, a woman from Northern Ireland cannot have an abortion on the NHS in England, being forced to pay for it privately which makes us little better.
I donate to Marie Stopes because I find such backwards thinking absolutely reprehensible.
Personally I don't think anyone but the pregnant women should get to decide.
Agreed, but to me personally, abortion for convenience sake is murder.
I'll support abortion, but I'm not a Woman so have absolutely [i]No Idea[/i] what the emotional implications are/could be/will be in the moments after or years to come or impact on immediate family/friends or relationships.
To ban it on the grounds of Relgion is IMO very very wrong.
The people campaigning against abortion are normally just that. Against abortion not pro life. If they were pro life they would support public healthcare, benefits for mothers (leave from work and money), social housing support, better workplace regulation, decent (and safe) schools etc.
Exactly. And if it's on religious grounds because only God has the power to give and take life then what about medical intervention to save life's, is that not against God's will?
Agreed, but to me personally, abortion for convenience sake is murder.
Which is fine as long as you have your view and can still let women choose.
Personally I don't think anyone but the pregnant women should get to decide.
Just to be clear here, are you saying that there should be [b]no[/b] limits on abortion, and the pregnant woman alone should decide on things, up to the point of birth?
You know, like up to week 39, when the baby could easily survive out of the womb?
Or are you happy with there being [b]some[/b] limits on abortion, like a certain point in the gestation?
Not trolling, genuinely interested where/when people would draw the line.
Edit: OITNB had an excellent take on things:
Agreed, but to me personally, abortion for convenience sake is murder.
It's a pretty traumatic thing, both physically and emotionally - I'd wager that very, very few women have an abortion for convenience.
To ban it on the grounds of Relgion is IMO very very wrong.
To fair to claim that an unborn child is simply a foetus and not a human being for the first 24 weeks, and then suddenly, and quite miraculously, becomes a human being for the remaining 26 weeks, sounds quasi-religious to me. What magical event occurs to make them into a human being?
And whose to say when/if/how they become "a human being" ?
I struggle to form an opinion on abortion. I have given birth to 2 healthy children and I don't believe that at any point I could've made the decision to kill the heartbeat in my stomach. But I was never made to decide, I was never in that situation, so I don't see how I can know.
If you abort a baby, you are then induced to give birth to that (now dead) baby. Horrific. Hardly a decision any woman would take lightly? But I also believe that an unborn child is just that, a child, a human, so why should even it's mother be allowed to kill him/her?
It's a really complex issue with no easy answers IMO
[quote=PeterPoddy ]Agreed, but to me personally, abortion for convenience sake is murder.
So don't do it then
And also don't tell anyone else they can't do it. It's their choice, not yours.
[quote=gerti ]
It's a really complex issue with no easy answers IMO
And what Trump has done is to remove the ability for some of the poorest and most vulnerable women in the world to ask questions and receive any answers on the subject of abortion
I also believe that an unborn child is just that, a child, a human, so why should even it's mother be allowed to kill him/her?It's a really complex issue with no easy answers IMO
It is, which is the problem. The thorny issue is, at what point is it a "child"? When it's recognisable as one physically? When its brain starts to form? When it's just a bag of cells? The first cell divide? When a sperm and an egg meet? Before that even, are you committing murder every time a woman ovulates or a man has an orgasm anywhere other than is traditional?
It's difficult to define, which is I suppose just one reason is why it's such a controversial topic. I can't begin to imagine what it must be like to be in a position where you have to make that decision, from a careless teenager who made a mistake to someone who's been a rape victim, the mental and emotional stress must be incredible.
Which is why, as a bloke, I get very angry indeed when other people (usually men) dictate to potentially vulnerable women what they can and can't do with their bodies. It's none of our ****ing business, frankly.
km79 - Member
Abortion should be illegal and woman who get one should be prosecuted. The only way a woman should be allowed to have an abortion is if a man decides she can or indeed orders her to have one. Something like that anyway, seems to be the general gist of the way things are going.
It must be so reassuring to be that certain about the rights of other people. Who the **** died and made you Elvis, then? What gives you the right to dictate how others should live?
Which is why, as a bloke, I get very angry indeed when other people (usually men) dictate to potentially vulnerable women what they can and can't do with their bodies. It's none of our ****ing business, frankly.
Devil's advocate, but I have an opinion on loads of things that don't (or haven't) directly affect(ed) my body: murder, rape, child porn, wearing a bike helmet etc. etc. The fact that it's not my body doesn't necessarily mean that society doesn't have a legitimate interest in a person's behaviour.
Personally I think abortion is completely the woman's decision up until the foetus would be viable outside the womb. Of course there's no exact point when that is true, but around 22-23 weeks would seem to be the limit. Beyond that there would need to be a serious medical reason to permit abortion.
I am pro choice for women.
However, I think there is and always will be a thorny area regarding the involvement of the father when the potential parents are in a healthy, committed and stable relationship.
Not trolling.
CZ, he wasn't being serious.
Just being a cheeky monkey to make a point 🙂
jambalayaI don't think that's strictly true, as per Ireland (ie Republic) it's available in limited circumstances. It is strange to me the Republic had a Referendum of same sex marriage (passed easily) but they don't have one on abortion.
It's effectively illegal in the Republic. Even in the very limited circumstances that it could be allowed (to preserve the life of the mother) it appears doctors will er on the side of risk to the mother as opposed to abort. There were a couple of notorious cases in the last few years where pregnant women died due to doctors/court being unable to decide what to do.
There will probably be another abortion referendum in the republic sometime soon I imagine.
Flaperon
The Northern Ireland thing baffles me.
Northern Ireland's largest political party is the DUP - they are essentially the political wing of the Free Presbyterian church, Ian Paisley's church. A bunch creationist/literalist religious fundamentalists. They've repeatedly abused their political power to block same sex marriage and equality for LGBT people. They wouldn't be out of place in the 1600s.
I posted up a link a few years ago wherein a former DUP minister objected at the motion to pardon two women who were hanged for witchcraft on the grounds there was no way to be sure they weren't witches.
And also don't tell anyone else they can't do it. It's their choice, not yours.
See, I don't get that idea.
It depends on what point at which you believe that life begins. As ninfan suggests, above, there must be some point at which one must concede that there is an actual person in utero, and not just a bunch of cells.
For some, that is earlier than for others. But I would expect a vast majority of us think it happens [I]eventually[/I], so it's not like someone who thinks it happens earlier than others is necessarily reprehensible.
And once we agree on the fact that an actual person now exists, then it is definitely NOT the woman's choice, because it is no longer just a woman's body that we are talking about.
1. I believe absolutely that a woman should have the right to choose what happens with and to her body.
2. I also happen to believe that life begins earlier than the current law suggests.
Therefore, I don't tend to accept the absolute idea that it is just 'choice' versus 'others who want to impose their will'.
nce we agree on the fact that an actual person now exists, then it is definitely NOT the woman's choice, because it is no longer just a woman's body that we are talking about.
Assuming that to be true, who is best poised to make that decision? The woman in question, or some orange bloke with a bad suit and worse hair?
Definitely not the orange bloke. BUT, as with so many controversial moral issues that must be addressed in the law, I would suggest that it be determined by a coming together of minds from different disciplines and positions, and NOT by pressure groups or the loudest lobby.
bencooper - Member
Agreed, but to me personally, abortion for convenience sake is murder.
It's a pretty traumatic thing, both physically and emotionally - I'd wager that very, very few women have an abortion for convenience.
I would suggest that most abortions are performed for convenience . Apart from the few that are performed because there's a genuine medical reason what other reason is there for having one other than convenience .
It is also illegal on the Isle of Man although the government are currently considering changing the law .
as with so many controversial moral issues that must be addressed in the law, I would suggest that it be determined by a coming together of minds from different disciplines and positions, and NOT by pressure groups or the loudest lobby.
Totally agree.
Sadly, history has thus far proven that this doesn't always happen.
(Cf. Brexit.)
I would suggest that most abortions are performed for convenience
I would suggest that... actually no, I'll not be rude, I'd suggest that you cite a reference for that or recant it.
Apart from the few that are performed because there's a genuine medical reason what other reason is there for having one other than convenience .
Quite right - rape victims should totally be forced to bring the results of their attack to term and love and care for it for the next decade and a half.
98% of abortions in England and Wales in 2015 were carried out under ground C of the legislation.
C the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman (section 1(1)(a))
Of this 98%
The vast majority (99.95%) of ground C only terminations were reported as being performed because of a risk to the woman’s mental health. No further breakdown for F99 (mental disorder, not otherwise specified) is included in the International Classification of Diseases and therefore no further breakdown is possible within the report.
It's not possible to say with any accuracy whether or not most abortions are performed for convenience. It is possible to say that most are carried out for mental health reasons.
Well mental health is a rather vague term that can encompass a whole load of reasons . This is an excerpt from the only study that I could find that actually gave a breakdown of reasons for abortion and it also was performed in the USA but I would suggest that the UK would be fairly similar . If you really want to read the whole thing just google reasons people have abortions .
The research into U.S. women's reasons for having abortions has been limited. In a 1985 study of 500 women in Kansas, unreadiness to parent was the reason most often given for having an abortion, followed by lack of financial resources and absence of a partner.3 In 1987, a survey of 1,900 women at large abortion providers across the country found that women's most common reasons for having an abortion were that having a baby would interfere with school, work or other responsibilities, and that they could not afford a child.4 Since
Since 'for convenience' isn't an option for having a legal abortion I am not surprised it's difficult finding it in a breakdown of reasons.
the argument about when life begins is irrelevant.
Some very very simple facts
Abortion has always happened, Abortion will always happen. Legal or illegal it has happened, happens and will continue to happen.
So you can make it safe, or you can put the lives of women at risk.
Your choice.
Abortion has always happened, Abortion will always happen. Legal or illegal it has happened, happens and will continue to happen.So you can make it safe, or you can put the lives of women at risk.
This was more or less what I was about to post.
very few women have an abortion for convenience.
I know of 3 abortions, one woman twice another once who had abortions as having a baby was not the lifestyle they wanted. Both had ample financial rescources and one was married.
km79 - Member
Since 'for convenience' isn't an option for having a legal abortion I am not surprised it's difficult finding it in a breakdown of reasons.
So would you consider that having abortions for the reasons quoted in my post are not reasons of convenience . Or were you just being a wise guy ?
I suspect that 'ample financial resources' would also make it fairly easy to obtain a discreet and safe medical termination even if it was banned. There was a thing on the BBC website making exactly this point recently.
Mrs Deviant has had two.
Both for convenience I suppose, first was with a previous partner and they split up shortly after finding out she was pregnant and she didn't want to be a single mother.
Second time was with me, we weren't using protection at the time and although we'd been together a few years and had the funds to raise a child neither of us were interested. I was too into motorbikes, cycling, gym, kick boxing etc and Mrs Deviant was still besotted with horses...we could see our lives changing in a way neither of us wanted so....abortion time.
Easy really, catch it early enough and its a bundle of cells, no thought, no fully functioning nervous system etc....she just took a tablet and spent the day on the loo emptying her uterus into the gutter, job done.
It's her body and nobody else's business, and I'd happily extend the abortion limit closer to the due date without any feelings of guilt.
I would not want the limit nearer term ideally. I think if it was easier to get it early, no mucking about- down the pharmacy or gp and thats it, then there would be less need.
Putting obstacles in the way means a much more traumatic procedure later on.
And I don't see why we expect women to be wracked with remorse and guilt either.
What Trump has done is shameful, particularly as he knows it will only affect the poor and vulnerable- If his daughter ever wants an abortion she'll get one no worries.
I have no issue with abortions for convenience. It's better than bringing an unwanted child into the world.
Not allowing women control over their fertility is a means of excercising power.
This is nothing to do with foetuses.
It is about showing women who is in charge.
Abortion should be a matter decided between a woman and her doctor.
I have no idea why some people are so happy to involve themselves in the reproductive rights of others.
No matter how much you believe it to be your business, it isn't.
@deviant I acknowledge you being so open about a complex subject.
On term limit very premature babies are now surving and modern technology lets you see quite how developed a baby is at 20 or 24 weeks. Personally I think there is a strong argument for reducing the term limit not extending it.
Rusty it depends on when you think life begins. You are not allowed the murder your 6 month old as you've chnaged your mind about being a parent.
No it doesn't.
It has nothing to do with when you or I think life begins, which is a pointless, unanswerable red herring of a question.
It has nothing to do with you or I at all.
Our opinions on the subject are unwanted, irrelevant and unhelpful.
Give the choice to women and stop interfering.
mrs tts is your local chemist..She hands out the morning after pill several times a day. her pharmacy is 500 yds from two secondary schools. the majority of her patients are pupils often below 16. the spectrum she describes though covers the whole of society from the young woman after a night out to married mums to middle aged singles. Mrs tts is a staunch catholic and finds it hard to reconcile with her religious beliefs as its clear to her that she is providing contraception of the last resort.
mrs tts has had an abortion. It was a defining moment of her life. A decision she did not want to make nor one she took lightly. she made the correct decision for the baby herself and our other children. not a day goes by when we dont regret making that decision no matter how right it was. Absolutely abortion should be allowed it should be a womans free choice with term been decided as is at present.