Hi all
Current status of this is that the airport / landowner in question has just rejected my appeal, so I have the options of paying up at the reduced £60 or appealing to POPLA. They also stated that the Ombudsman is competent to hear my appeal but that they have chosen not to be part of that system - not sure if I can still use the Ombudsman?
Anyway, dropped a colleague at the airport and this terminal operates now without barriers i.e. you drop the passenger, drive away and have to pay online by midnight the following day. The way to avoid being pinged for forgetting to pay on time (very easy to do!) is to register the car on their database and charges are automatically taken from a cc. I had done this because I am a regular user of this airport for collecting colleagues / customers etc.
However, about 12 hours later than the deadline, it dawned on me that I had not updated the reg number on the system, having had a new lease car delivered the week before. I tried to go online and make a payment but I wasn't able to open up the 'parking event' associated with the visit made. I did make an equivalent payment though for that day, so well before any fine was issued.
I was hoping that the issuer of the parking charge might accept that no attempt to avoid payment was made but I received a "tough luck", you didn't adhere to the terms type response.
Anyone have any experience of POPLA and how they might react? If the fine had been issued before I made payment then obvioulsy no complaints but they were in receipt of my money (and car registration number) before they issued a charge, which seems harsh. They haven't refunded the late payment that I made either!!
So this is all down to the "pay by midnight" aspect of the T&Cs. I paid the full amount required for the visit but just a few hours late. Is it worth appealing to POPLA or should I just stump up?
We've used popla once before. Mrs f had parked in a disabled bay and forgotten to display her blue badge. We won the appeal on the grounds that the charge was punitive for a free car park.
I used POPLA once when having bought a ticket very early in the morning at a station car park with no lighting I displayed the credit card receipt not the parking ticket. I was able to show I had paid it by sending in a credit card statement with the payment highlighted and I won the appeal.
Had a fine overturned by POPLA after the car park operator refused my appeal. The ticket was for parking in a staff car park at a hospital, which I hadn't done but despite sending proof of payment and a picture of their own signage which clearly stated it was for public use they wouldn't cancel the fine. Appealed to POPLA with the same pictures and had an email about 2 weeks later saying the Operator had admitted they were wrong the matter was now closed
Uhmm thanks everyone. All of you were clearly stitched up by the fine issuers. My concern remains my payment being made outwith their declared acceptable time limit. I paid and well before any fine was issued but are POPLA likely to accept that as a reason to support my appeal? I mean why is that time limit OK rather than 48 hours later for example? Who determines what is fair and appropriate, especially when there are no options for making payment at the venue!
I think you’ll have to suck it up. Mrs BH once forgot to pay a Dartford Crossing charge in time but paid the fee before receiving a fine. Got the fine but got off it by phoning the operator and admitting her error and pointing out she had paid very soon after the deadline, and it must have been going home time or something because the person she spoke to gave a her short lecture and then let her off. But I think you’re past the benevolent stage.
Did you identify yourself as the driver in your appeal? If you did you've lost a solid defence of the PCN. I'm guessing this is Manchester airport although it doesn't really matter which airport. Airports are covered by statutory regulations and are therefore outside the scope of POFA. Normally the keeper can be held liable under the POFA rules. If you haven't identified the driver you appeal to POPLA stating the parking company can't hold you liable as the keeper for this location.
If you have identified yourself as the driver POPLA is unlikely to uphold your appeal. At the end of the day you did not abide by the car park rules. If you don't pay you'll get bombarded with debt collectors letters, you can ignore them. It's likely you will eventually be issued with a letter of claim for a court case. If you enter a defence it's most likely they will drop the case. Worse case is it goes to court, you lose and you'll be £250 out of pocket.
Choice is yours, pay now and it goes away, don't pay and it will drag on for ages and will probably require you to engage with the court process.
Bottom line is you did breach the terms of a legally enforceable contract (you will breach the contract if you don't pay the invoice).
Stumpyjon - I haven't identiofoed myself as the driver but the car is leased so they will no doubt keep sending letters to the lease company rather than me. I then get charged an admin fee everytime!
I was hoping that having made a payment I might hear of similar POPLA appeals working out but seems not from these repsonses. I will probably appeal and risk the extra £40. They say on the PCN that I didn't make a valid payment but don't define what valid means in this context. We'll see but I go in with low expectations!
I'd appeal it.
I'm not 100% certain that Jon is correct about not naming the driver either. That loophole was plugged years ago (except in Scotland) I think.
If it's a lease vehicle you're in a better position again unless the lease company just pay it and recharge you. To transfer keeper liability to you the lease company have to provide a number of documents to the private parking company. Have you received a PCN your name, if you haven't you can't really appeal. If the lease company has transferred liability, named you as the driver, you could be a bit stuck, but at least the lease company won't be getting debt collectors letters.
@Cougar, I'm definitely right. The contract is always with the driver unless the private parking company transfers liability to the keeper under the strict terms of POFA. Airport land is outside the scope of POFA so unless someone tells the private parking company who was driving, and there is no legal requirement to do so, the PPC doesn't know who to pursue and can't go after the keeper.
It being a lease car make might make things more complicated depending on what the lease company do or don't do.
There's not, in the past if you refused to reveal who was driving they were stuck. That changed under the protections of freedoms act (POFA) 2012 which allows the keeper to be held liable if the driver is not named. This only applies in England and Wales, Scotland will will eventually follow. There is no legal requirement on the keeper to name the driver in the case of private parking tickets, but there can be consequences in most cases if the PCN is issued within 14 days, is worded correctly and is for parking on relevant land. Airport land is covered under separate provisions so POFA is not applicable which means the keeper can't be held liable.
I should point out that there are photographs! I think you'd struggle to ID "the driver" though. I'll have to re-read all my documents to see what the lease company will do in these circumstances.
stumpyjon - is your idea that I tell POPLA that the issuer of the notice hasn't identfied the driver, therefore the PCN is invalid? That simple?
Not quite, I'm assuming the lease company named you as the hirer which isn't the same thing in law as the driver. You need to explain to POPLA that as the hirer you can't be held liable for the PCN as it was issued on airport land which is outside of the scope of POFA, therefore no keeper / hirer liability. As long as the driver is not identified the parking company is stuck. The critical bit you need emphasise to POPLA is the PCN was issued on airport land hence no POFA and the driver has not been identified.
Again though did you receive a PCN from the private parking company in your name? If not liability for the PCN still rests with the lease company. Have you been issued with a POPLA code? You can't appeal to POPLA without one.
PCN is not in my name. Lease company has issued letter of authority to issuer of PCN to deal with my company about it
"If not liability for the PCN still rests with the lease company" - this bit worries me - will they keep hassling the lease company?
Yes I have a POPLA verification number
It doesn't work like that and your lease company should know that. At this point your problem is the lease company, I'd be checking the terms of the lease regarding private parking invoices. Until the parking company issue a PCN to you liability for the parking invoice rests with the lease company.
When you say that liability rests with the lease company, you mean for them to pay or for them to contest / rebut?
The last time I had a PCN via a company-provided lease vehicle, it'd already been paid by the time I saw it and I just got a bill.
Airport land is covered under separate provisions so POFA is not applicable which means the keeper can't be held liable.
Ah, so it's an exception. I see, cheers.
@cb yes, they are the registered keeper, they have to formally name you as the hirer to the parking company. The parking company then issues you a PCN in your name. If you weren't the driver you'd then inform the private parking company who the driver was (if it wasnt you) and another PCN would issued. Depends on your lease agreement though, a lot of lease / hire companies will just pay the invoice and charge it back to the hirer with an admin fee. It will be in the T & Cs.
@Couger yes, same applies to railway land and many other locations withstatutory controls in place, usually land where a council us the owner of the land but leases it to someone else. It's all rather complex and needs sorting out and a lot of the smaller companies putting out of business. Labour are having another go at sorting it, the Torys tried but as usual went all populist and screwed it all up. Ultimately abandoning changes when they were threatened with court because they had failed to comply with their own consultation rules.
Can you pay the fine and then appeal? I was forced (by the closure of the entrance into Buchanan Galleries carpark, which is on a one-way street, and I couldn't reverse back out along the one-way, and navigate the busy junction) to continue into a bus lane in Glasgow.
I paid the fine but appealed to the Ombudsman. They contacted me as they had 100s of identical appeals. There was a hearing date, that I didn't need to attend, and it was settled in my favour. The fine was refunded by Glasgow City Council.
This one isa private parking ticket so different from your situation Troutwrestler. Generally if you pay you can't then appeal.
stumpyjon - apologies for labouring this point but I'm about to appeal and still unsure about your advice above.
If the issuer doesn't have the named driver, you suggested that the responsbility remains with the lease company. Are you saying that the issuer will try and make the lease company pay if my appeal is succesful? Or are you saying that POPLA 'may' decide that the PCN is invalid as the driver hasn't been identified?
That's really the crucial bit as to whether an appeal is wothwhile. If POPLA simply rejects the PCN and that is the end of it, then its worth trying. If the issuer can still go after the lease company after the appeal from me is successful then I really don't see the point because the lease company wouldn't fight that, they'd simply pay and invoice me.
stumpyjon - repeating as my question seems to have dissappeared!
Just about to appeal and apologies for labouring this point...
When you say that the responsibility rests with the lease company if the driver hasn't been identified, do you mean now or after a succesful appeal by me to POPLA?
If I appeal, POPLA agrees and makes them withdraw the PCN, is that the end of the matter OR can the issuer then decide to go after the lease company instead?
If the former, then worth a go. If the latter, then it just means that the lease company will eventually pay it and invoice me.
What I'm saying is that you should not be involved with the parking company and the appeals process at all unless you've been issued with a PCN in your name. The lease company should deal with the PCN themselves (ignore it or pay it, they don't really have grounds to appeal) or notify the private parking company that you were the hirer at the time of the incident.
If you do appeal to POPLA I'm not sure how you would word your appeal, normally in this situation you would tell POPLA you were the hirer but the driver has not been named. As this location is not covered by POFA the liability can not be transferred from the unknown driver to the hirer. POPLA do grant appeals and side with motorist unlike the IAS.
Unless you have a PCN in your name from the private parking company you have no relationship with them, your lease company can't just pass the PCN they received and tell you deal with it.
Your issue here is with your lease company, the private parking companies next step after bombarding someone with debt collectors letters is to take someone to court. If you have not received a PCN in your own name it can't be you they take to court.
To be honest it's a mess created by your lease company who should know better. Theya re the ones that will be giving you grief in future
PCN was in name of lease company. Lease company has issued a 'Letter of Authorisation' to the issuer giving them permission to contact the hirer. My company is named as the hirer.
I appealed to the issuer without naming the driver. Appeal rejected. Have now appealed to POPLA and kept it very simple, mentioning only the POFA bit and airport land.
We'll see!
POPLA reject just as often as the parking company does we were happy to go to court for the 300 quid it was going to cost us if we lost ,parking weasels never even showed up. We won by default, it’s a game to them of easy winnings vs effort/risk
@brotato got any evidence to back that claim up? If you check on the POPLA website you'll see they uphold a significant number of appeals, which varies a lot by operator. Appeals success with an operator varies massively from operator to operator and the who the land owner is. Appeals success rates can be up to 50% or down in single digits. A lot of people get PCNs because they didn't follow the car park rules, registered their car, exceeded the max stay etc. and then get all upset because they were a genuine customer of the retailer etc. The parking company doesn't know they are a 'genuine' customer until they appeal. Of course we could abolish private parking companies but good luck getting a space in your local supermarket when theres always match or big event on locally, when there's a train station or hospital nearby. You may otlike private parking companies but they are a necesary evil because there are a fair number of drivers who are bluntly selfish.
The behaviour of some of the companies is down to the inability of the government to properly regulate them and put the rogue ones like Excel parking, remember the 5 minute rule scandal, out of business. The Torys had the opportunity to do this but instead made it a culture war issue and tried to reduce the PCN value to be the motorists friend and also completely ignored the government's own rules I how consultations are run and went all whiney when they were challenged with high court action and complained the nasty parking companies blocked them. If the government had done its bit properly there wouldn't have been grounds for a legal challenge. Labour are having a other go at the moment, will have to wait to see if it gets done properly this time.
As for the OP, airport land is a loop hole, the OP still broke the parking rules, if the loophole was closed they wouldn't have had a defence.
Ok then I will bite , we appealed we got rejected by parking company we appealed to POPLA and again rejection , plenty of groups also Legal beagles , Money saving expert etc where similar stories occur I say reject as often because you end up doing the rounds on various groups where people who has been turned down by the parking company then goes on to ask for help how to appeal to POPLA then when they get turned down by POPLA want to know if they have a chance to win in court , a lot I would guess don’t have the stomach or finances
Our case was no planning permission for signage which also cannot be applied for retrospectively ,making it a criminal offence on the parking companies part , no one wants a test case for this it seems
Ah there you go then, not having planning permission doesn't affect the validity of the PCN, completely separate issue. Thats why your appeal was correctly rejected.
The forums are full of people wanting to beat a private parking ticket because they don't agree with them, not because they have a valid reason for appealing the PCN. The forums encourage the view they are all beatable and the whole industry is a scam. It's not, it's based on proven contract law. The only reason more cases don't go to court is simply cost, private parking companies generally lose money in a court situation, costs them more than they are awarded.
The FTLA forum is a good source of advice although even then their main advice is keep defending the PCN all the way, not because you have a valid argument but because the private parking company will generally discontinued the case before the hearing date is set.
Stumpyjon - I owe you a beer mate!! Appeal withdrawn by the issuer before it got to POPLA having to make an assessment - guess this saves the issuer some money?
Thank you!
Ah there you go then, not having planning permission doesn't affect the validity of the PCN, completely separate issue. Thats why your appeal was correctly rejected.
The forums are full of people wanting to beat a private parking ticket because they don't agree with them, not because they have a valid reason for appealing the PCN. The forums encourage the view they are all beatable and the whole industry is a scam. It's not, it's based on proven contract law. The only reason more cases don't go to court is simply cost, private parking companies generally lose money in a court situation, costs them more than they are awarded.
The FTLA forum is a good source of advice although even then their main advice is keep defending the PCN all the way, not because you have a valid argument but because the private parking company will generally discontinued the case before the hearing date is set.
well done essentially you re wrote what I had in your own words