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The police do a useful and dangerous job, that's undeniable. However, recent events aside, there are far more dangerous occupations which get very little coverage. If one of them hadn't been a famous rugby player, would anyone have paid much attention to three people who drowned in a slurry tank recently? In the last 10 years, over 400 people have died on farms. Fishing isn't exactly safe either.
And of course there are the 1400+ people who have died after contact with the police since 1990.
Wrecker, that's crap. My duties are just as demanding as the Army and rm, unfortunately people like you don't see the specialist side of policing.
Really? Are you going to compare the home counties to Helmand?
Just a few things to consider-hm forces get, free health and dental care, low cost subsidised accommodation.. The police do more hours than teachers, fire and rescue and NHS staff.
So HM forces get the things that everyone else in the entire country gets and they're lucky? Did you ever go on an operational tour during your time? Do you really want to compare hours?
Did you get to join the HM forces union? Oh, no there isn't one as they're not allowed.
I have plenty of respect for the police (it's not a job that I could do), and do not want to see them cut at all. Neither do I want to see the health service, forces, fire service or schools cut but everyone's being forced to take a bite of the shit sandwich.
The police are not in a position that unique and are certainly not the worst off.
And of course there are the 1400+ people who have died after contact with the police since 1990.
Thats a bit of a ropey statistic even for someone (myself) who think the police need some serious changes.
well, we can make any figure we want up on a forum, its not the real world is it?
MSP, what do you do for a living?
Thats a bit of a ropey statistic even for someone (myself) who think the police need some serious changes.
1439 in England and Wales since 1990:
http://inquest.gn.apc.org/website/statistics/deaths-in-police-custody
None of those deaths led to any officer being convicted for murder or manslaughter.
Undeniably a very tough job and not one I would choose, but...
When did they make it compulsory? presumably you can leave if you choose?
Pensions are being torn up all over the place. My own after 18 years (private sector).
I really wish they'd stop showing the police reality shows on tv. It generally leaves a dreadful impression of dense, macho skinheads in uniform spoiling for a fight. This (presumably) is not the image the police service wishes to portray?
your forum name bencoopper
sure its not bentcopper
Wrecker, the police don't have a union either....it's a federation. In some places of the uk, yes, it's as dangerous for cops. The amount of gun crime has trebled in the inner cities the past 5 years. If I need back up it could be 10-15 Minutes away, I can't call for a gunship to rescue me. Remember the riots last year???? Hmmmmmm, I would say that was just as demanding.
I agree the hm forces do get a rough deal, I served in n Ireland during the troubles so know first hand how tough it is.
your forum name bencooppersure its not bentcopper
I'd be good at being a bent copper - certainly would make more money than running a bike shop 🙂
So you don't think it's odd that, even in the tiny number of cases that made it to trial (16 out of 1439), there were no convictions? Is it common to have 16 murder trials that have no convictions, when the defendant is a member of the public?
One way to look at it Ben cooper is "would a member of the public have even been charged in those 16 cases?"
It will have been a jury that made the decision....
ben
there is one thing i can guarantee you,
we dont get favours from the judiciary!!
ben,
who mentioned they were murder trials
the figures are good
we are not killing half as many people recently as in the past 😀
I do dispute that any UK inner city is as dangerous as patrolling in Helmand (if only due to IEDs) and 10-15 minutes is a lot quicker than the average gunship spt. As I've said, however I do support the police as it's a difficult and at times quite dangerous job.
Does the police federation allow you to strike if you want to?
we cant take strike action as we are crown employees
the federation will be hol;ding a ballott of police officers soon for the right to take industrial action(not strike action)
What would industrial action entail easygirl?
One way to look at it Ben cooper is "would a member of the public have even been charged in those 16 cases?"It will have been a jury that made the decision...
I thought it was the CPS who decided on all criminal prosecutions?
So how do we explain it? If over 1400 people died while visiting bike shops in the past 20 years, there would be a lot of questions asked - and I'm sure there would have been convictions, for manslaughter at least.
Why has this not happened with the police? Is it that the IPCC aren't doing their job properly, is it that the police close ranks and make it harder to find out what happened, is it that the media skews reports*, is it that juries are biased towards the police?
The attitude often seems to be that, since they died in custody, they must have been wrong 'uns so had it coming.
*remember that de Menezes was initially reported to have run from police, jumped the station barriers, and was wearing a suspiciously bulky jacket with wires coming out. All of which was later found to be untrue.
CPS decide if the case will go to court
juries or magistrates decide if the person is guilty or innocent
First, Glad the police are there, Thank you to those who chose to serve.
You are appreciated, even if it doesn't always show.
But as ben says, there is a bit of a myth as to the level of danger.
Farming, fishing and construction are more dangerous occupations.
And being arrested, of course. 😉
Oh, and I'm completely on the police's side when it comes to the pensions etc, by the way - you signed up to a contract to do a difficult job, it's not on to change the terms of the contract later.
Correct CPS make the decision to charge, and will have made the decision to charge the officers. They tend to treat officers more harshly than members of the public and put it to trial and can't be seen to be favourable
The jury will have found them not guilty.
ben
generally people who go to bike shops are genuine decent people
people who are in stolen cars and in custody are not, and i did say generally remember.
i woul imagine a great majority of the deaths would be down to crashing stolen cars, or in the case of death in custody, due to drugs or suicide, again this is a massive assumption, but vfrom my 25 years as a police officer that is the usual cause of custody deaths.
The pension thing is a red herring. Everyone in the real world is having to suck up some pretty unpleasant changes to T's and C's in the benefits that used to be expected.
Plod have to accept it, as do teachers, nurses, civil servants, blah blah blah.
My private sector final salary pension is dead; has been since Nu Labour stuck the boot in. I'm having to make alternative arrangements. The Police will need to do the same.
It's demoralising, but it's where the country is at the moment.
If you haven't done the job you have no idea what it really involves. We have to run towards situations that Everyone else is running away from. Tell a mother their son is dead. Give mouth to mouth to a traffic accident casualty, comfort the girl that has just been raped, stop the mentally ill person killing themselves on a roof, roll over the body that has rotted for months to make sure they weren't stabbed in the back, take on the gunman unarmed because armed support is too far away and a complete stranger is in danger, grab the dangerous dog, fight a crowd of hooligans hell bent on injuring you without using excessive force. Etc etc. We joined because we wanted to do something worthwhile and help others in society. All we are asking for, irrespective of what is happening to others, is what we signed up to. We can stomach paying more than 11% for our pensions or working longer or getting less. But not all three on top of pay freezes and budget cuts. It's excessive given what we sacrifice and are prepared to sacrifice every day for strangers and society as a whole.
It's demoralising, but it's where the country is at the moment.
Where the country is is a bunch of toffs who have never worked a day in their lives, and who aren't actually all that bright, are trying to implement a right-wing manifesto by dismantling everything they can before they're inevitably kicked out of power.
All we are asking for, irrespective of what is happening to others, is what we signed up to.
And this is where you have my complete support.
what other job in the public sector do you get spat on , punched, stabbed, shot, killed,?
spat on/at - yep
punched - yep
stabbed - not personally, yet, but colleagues yes.
shot - nope, but we do get to go into homes of mentally unwell individuals who own guns and look after people who have murdered with such guns
killed - i'm pretty sure that some mental health nurses have been killed in the line of duty in the past.
still... i'd rather be a mental health nurse than a police officer! i get to deal with the broadmoor type people, the police get to deal with the same people, and the public!
And I have to deal with Cyclist's Touring Club members. Some of them can be positively intimidating when you won't give them a discount on a patch kit...
wrecker
re industrial action, not sure what it would involve to be honest.
as a bobby never thought about it before,coulkd be working to rule, no overtime working, that alone would cause a massive headache.
we could never go on strike, i think that is known by all officers, can you imagine what it would be like?
imagine the riots, but instead of shops , they would e coming in your home and stealing from you direct
Where the country is is a bunch of toffs who have never worked a day in their lives, and who aren't actually all that bright, are trying to implement a right-wing manifesto by dismantling everything they can before they're inevitably kicked out of power
Yet it was Gordon and Tony who initially set the Pension business wobbling by raiding every Pension fund in the land. Except the Public sector Pension, which is paid for by taxpayers. Maybe Snooty is just evening the playing field?
All we are asking for, irrespective of what is happening to others, is what we signed up to.
There is no free lunch. All bets are off. Make sure you have a seat when the music stops.
The deal has been changed. Hope it does not change any more.
How the rest of these reforms are being implemented is controlled and managed by local Police Forces. They don't have to slash recruitment or cut-back anywhere IF they can make efficiency improvements instead.
Efficiency here means reducing paperwork and improving methods to minimise inefficient use of expensive resources (coppers!) and keep said resources focused on their core business i.e policing the streets.
The biggest problem seems to be that local Police 'management' take the easier (and publicly less acceptable) route of slashing recruitment and cutting staffing levels because it's easier and less acceptable to the public. It also upsets the Minister who's asking them to save money - thereby reducing the likelyhood (they hope) that they'll be asked to save any more money.
Ok, so what are these efficiency improvements? Serious question by the way. Will they amount to the £26 million budget cut over 3 years that Notts has to stomach?
Bearing in mind the much Police Policy & Procedure is regulated by both act of Parliament and the NPIA, a government agency.
Well, I was the one who sent the email(s) to the OP and a few other officers on STW. Ive done a undergraduate and am currently doing a masters. Always fancied joining up but this thread is certainly food for thought. (not that I can find any one recruiting anyway)
G.M.P 134million cuts by 2014
so far has lost 3,000 staff
imagine the riots, but instead of shops , they would e coming in your home and stealing from you direct
With due respect, I think that's a bit of a stretch. The inner cities would be a mess for sure but the forces would be dragged in (probably with nothing but pick helves, black nasty and helibedfords) as always.
its not a bit of a stretch, believe me
andymc06 - Member
We joined because we wanted to do something worthwhile and help others in society.
That may well be the case for you but I can't imagine such altruism runs throughout the force. There's loads of reasons why people join up and 'doing good' isn't always at the top of the list.
ScottChegg
It's not a free lunch. I've paid 11% of my earnings for 11 years and sacrificed an untold amount mentally, emotionally and physically. I'd be interested to know what you do for a living. You have no idea about policing.
@andymc. Leave, get another job. My pension was raided after paying in for 18 years and I was pissed off with my employer. I moved on. If you're that pee'd off, so should you.
Boblo
Sure not everyone. However most I know joined for altruistic reasons but the job can turn people cynical very quickly.
The deal has been changed. Hope it does not change any more.
You're joking aren't you? This is only the start. I reckon if you're under 40 you'll be working until you drop. Its going to be like Catch 22 where they keep raising the number of missions, as Yossarian completes them.
By the time we get to 'retirement' age, its going to be a dusty relic, a quaint little thing they used to do in the late 20th century. A life of subsistence level poverty awaits most I would imagine. And I say that as someone with two (private) pensions, who knows what they'll actually pay me. Next to **** all!!!
11% of my earnings
Is that so you get a full pension after 30 years, could you start in police at 19 and retire on full pension at 49?
Also i am now planning for the future based on the changes. The police service and the public will lose out as many skilled officers look to do the same. I think that that is rather a shame.
Not me but the wife..
spat on/at - yep
punched - yep
stabbed - not personally, but a colleague yes.
Viciously attacked leading to broken bones - Yep
shot - nope,
killed - I do believe school staff have been killed (although not at her school).
And all for about minimum wage (She's a TA).
A view from a public sector (civvy) worker.
It's not just the police who are at risk in our communities. 3 members of my security staff successfully disarmed a mentally ill student with a knife yesterday. Due to staffing cuts, the police response time where I work is pathetically bad. After a previous incident involving a similar situation I was told by a senior officer that frontline staffing levels were at critical levels and we should plan according. So we have. I have to say that my experiences of the police in part of my job are mixed at best.
As for the comments relating to unprofessional behaviour by serving police officers and the neutrality of the IPCC and the CPS well....hillsborough, Tomlinson & Mark Kennedy/Bob Lambert are all recent examples of duplicity. I'm positive that for every allegation of misconduct that is upheld there are a hundred that are rejected as the officer has been shown to be entirely inocent of wrongdoing. The trouble is that there is a perception that police are liable to cover up their mistakes, indeed there is recent proof that they do. Comments above that serving officers need to stick even more closely together worry me. It's entirely understandable that an organisation that perceives itself to be under threat should close ranks, however I hope this doesn't lead to a widening gulf in trust between the police and the public.
Re-reading the above makes me sound like I don't value the job the police do. That's not the case. It seems that the role has become far more difficult, far more scrutinised, and perhaps the service as a whole hasn't adapted the changing landscape as quickly as our expectations have changed.
In the one and only occasion that I've need to call 999 at home (we had an intruder in the house - in my 3 year old's bedroom) they were fantastic. Arrived in seconds, dog teams onsite and caught and detained the fella hiding nearby. Probably saved me from a manslaughter charge also 😉