[Closed] A Certain Football Culture

Can you imagine Probert, Orr or Domi playing football 😆

I would pay good money to see Lucic beaten to pulp though

The first time I really became aware of it was as a young lad and C4 started their excellent football Italia, although tbf, Italian footy had both ends of the sprectra, the divers and the dirtiest bastards around.

It's been in our culture for quite a while though, when you listen to the likes of Shearer, Charlie Nic et al - I'd have went down in the box there' etc...

**** being a referee, 22 guys trying to cheat you, and cameras everywhere.

Hmmmmmmm.... this is a new aproach. Are you new here? You're meant to say that its rugby thats a real mans game. And not just that.... a gentleness game, based on respect and general manliness, and football players are all big diving, overpaid jessies

I'll give it a minute though...... someone will be along to point it out shortly

In the meantime.... did you know it was 22 years ago that the legend that is Eric did this. The big Jessie....

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😀

IMO it really only has a significant impact at the top level. I saw very little diving or any form of cheating when I played at a local level. Even the non-league matches I occasionally watch are largely played in the right spirit.

I can agree that some of the theatrics may have been a continental import. When i was school age, we associated such behavior with oversees leagues - it wasn't something we particularly saw in the English game. At that time, it was more agricultural. Heavy and dangerous challenges were still an accepted part of the game.

These days, you have a mix of cultures, the fact that the rules of the game have changed and that the money in top-flight football has changed the stakes.

There are isolated instances where I think team/individual players behavior is disgraceful. In these circumstances the FA need to throw the book at clubs and players. But these are a tiny, tiny percentage of the tens of thousands of adults and children who play football fairly and with respect for their opponents and the officials.

Initially, it came from abroad.

Mixed with lots of money, it's pretty much ruined the top flight domestic game.

Not sure anyone's suggesting the players themselves are weak and feeble, binners. Just that they act like it on the pitch to try and get fouls awarded to them.

Which they do, to be honest. The foul play rule seems rather difficult to manage, but what else can you do?

If anyone thinks top flight football is a game of diving and Jessies then I suggest you watch the Spurs v Chelski game from the back end of last season. Dear god! I was watching in disbelief as the ref let one crunching 1970's Leeds-style challenge after another go unpunished, with both teams giving as good as they got. It was absolutely bloody brilliant! One of the best games I've ever watched. Reminded me of what I still regard as the pinnacle of premiership football, where Keane and Viera would kick ****ing lumps out of each other in the middle of the park 😀

Yes, some people dive. But it really isn't that big a part of the game. Its just that people make a big hoo-ha when it goes on. And their own fans get on players back if it starts getting embarrassing. See... Ashley Young

You saying it's not like that binners? I like football, but can hardly watch games, cos as soon as a player does something clever/skillful to get away from a defender they get fouled! Not every single time, of course, but most of the time.

And this, jeez. Grown men behaving like 12 year olds, what an example.

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I think the worst thing about modern sport is how important everyone thinks it is. I love football and sport is the best entertainment bar none , but its just that really, sport.

Ouch, he clearly got a nasty paper cut from the paper plane. Probably just needs a sit down with his fluffy slippers on.

The Premiership is the most competitive, skilful league in the world, played by supremely talented, ultra-competitive athletes. If you don't want to watch it, then don't watch it. Billions around the world do.

For example, watching the inch perfect pass from Pogba last night, through to Ibrahimovic for him to chip the keeper from a ridiculously acute angle, to score the winner, was an utterly sublime piece of skill from both of them.

Personally I'd rather remove my own kidneys with a teaspoon than watch a game of Rugby Union. But each to their own eh Dezzy Baby 😀

The Premiership is the most competitive, skilful league in the world, played by supremely talented, ultra-competitive athletes. If you don't want to watch it, then don't watch it. Billions around the world do.

I don't disagree with you on the talent front, binners. What I am saying, though, is that the kind of behaviour you see from that coach in the video is something people have come to expect in the football world, whereas it is not so much associated with other sports (afaik).

[i] If you don't want to watch it, then don't watch it.[/i]

I don't, but then that's not what this thread's about is it dearest binbins.

Don't forget that the diving, shouting at the ref, seeing what you get away with is part of the [b]entertainment[/b] that is football as well as fair play, rubbish goals, great goals and all the rest of it. Football can be many things, it can be sublime, farcical, laughable, competitive, fair, brutal, cheating, and gracious...all in the same game.

It's one of the reasons that it is so compulsive.

Comparing one team sport with another, and the sorts of rules and mores and behaviour patterns is a fruitless exercise in my opinion.

diving has been going on since the 60s at least. Its got so prevalent now with players being praised for "winning a penalty" that IMO its ruined the game and I no longer watch any of it. Starting to creep into rugby now

Yes, some people dive. But it really isn't that big a part of the game.

So, diving when you haven't been fouled is one thing. But going to ground too easily when you could've carried on, just to get a free kick - that seems to be the norm to me. People seem to consider it a genuine skill.

You can tell the people who don't actually watch much footy (if any?) because they think diving is a regular feature of the game.

It really isn't! As you'd know if you watched it week in, week out. Blatant dives are very rare, and always get a right slagging off pundits, commentators and fans alike.

In fact most games are quite the opposite. Its a really physical game, and its a contact sport. For example: Rojo should have got a straight red for his two footed, studs up challenge on Zaha last night. And he should have been off in the Spurs game for the same the week before. But the ref let both go. And Agueros challenge on Luiz the other week was truly horrific, and fully warranted the four match ban he got for it

But hey... don't let any inconvenient facts get in the way of your prejudice

Now Rugby.... theres a mans game...

*yawns*

binners beat me too it. Diving is routinely trotted out, as that's what the media pick on, and highlight, but it's not normal in games.

it's just snobbery really.

binners

If anyone thinks top flight football is a game of diving and Jessies then I suggest you watch the Spurs v Chelski game from the back end of last season. Dear god! I was watching in disbelief as the ref let one crunching 1970's Leeds-style challenge after another go unpunished,

That video above is priceless and really shows that people involved in soccer really have no shame or sense of bravery. I was leaving the cryospa a few weeks ago and a professional from a local team went in after me. Seconds later, "The pain is making me feel sick" ....."I think I'm going to throw up"....."I feel like I'm burning", the little old lady who supervises came out laughing and told me he was barely up to his knees. 😆

Rugby rugby rugby... what has that got to do with anything?

Because Dezzy, sweetheart, Rugby ALWAYS gets trotted out (by people who never actually watch football) on these oh-so-regular footy slagging threads.

While Rugby is then invariably then set as the benchmark that all sports should aspire too, whereas in reality Stuart Maconie summed it up perfectly when he said the only reason you'd bother watching a rugby game is for the brief novelty of watching off-duty policemen and solicitors beat each other up.

Then footy fans get labelled as thugs and 'scum' (again by people who've never been anywhere near a football ground), usually by the most boorish people on the planet, who you'd normally swim through a sea of sewage to avoid.

Its all so achingly predictable, so with that, I'm out....

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binners

Because Dezzy, sweetheart, Rugby ALWAYS gets trotted out

Imagine people comparing a popular team sport played on a grass pitch with a ball to another popular team sport played on a grass pitch with a ball. Why ever would they do that 🙄

by people who never actually watch football)

Yeah it's so hard to track down. You have to be a dedicated hardcore fan to find some soccer to watch. Most people are just speculating wildly about something they've never even seen.

[i]Rugby ALWAYS gets trotted out (by people who never actually watch football) on these oh-so-regular footy slagging threads[/i]

You're the only one who mentioned it 😆

diving has been going on since the 60s at least. Its got so prevalent now with players being praised for "winning a penalty" that IMO its ruined the game and I no longer watch any of it.

So, diving when you haven't been fouled is one thing. But going to ground too easily when you could've carried on, just to get a free kick - that seems to be the norm to me. People seem to consider it a genuine skill.

I'm a lifelong football fan, and there are many things i'd like to change about the game. However out and out diving is nothing like the big issue made out. When it does occur it is rightly vilified by press and fans and even players of the same team have been known to give a team mate a Paddington stare over it. However as Cougar says, what is becoming the norm now is 'manufacturing' contact, and players are getting very good at it. Just a little toe poke at the critical moment, put the ball out of reach of the goalkeeper and let him contact you and win a penalty - which has to be a better chance than playing on. It's the evolution of the game whether we like it or not. And those that don't like it - are going to have to get used to it.

It's a similar rule in Basketball where players will actively seek to get fouled while taking shots or driving to the basket - because it'll get you free throws, get the opponent into foul trouble, etc. But it's part of the game there and praised as good or clever play. Equally the defenders are smart about when making a challenge is likely to lead to a foul and don't make it. Which is what happens sometimes in football too, a player's convinced he's going to draw a foul, reacts to it and then the foul doesn't come. In basketball it's called 'flopping' and you'll get roundly booed for it. It'll come in football too.

I know some people hanker after the days when a tackle was only judged a foul if you could actually hear the bones break; IMHO the game is better now and has allowed far more skill to develop.

That video above is priceless and really shows that people involved in soccer really have no shame or sense of bravery.

Once again, all tarred with the same troll-ey brush. For every diving pussy there's one of these I can show you.
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It's dropping to the floor at the slightest contact that puts me off watching football. Then there's the clutching of heads/knees etc. if the slightest contact is made & rolling around like they've just been jabbed with a cattle prod.

I used to enjoy watching football, but now find it winds me up watching people fall over because they got brushed by an arm or someone's toe....

I prefer watching a match live as you can't see as much detail & don't get the 'benefit' of replays.....

It's got nothing to do with snobbery as mentioned above (or comparisons to rugby, or any other sport for that matter)......

As for it only happening at top flight football - my brother coaches the kids at a local team. I've been to a few games and training sessions & many of the kids emulate their idols by dropping to the floor & rolling around until a decision is made before getting up & trotting off as if nothing happened. That and the flailing of arms & general flouncing when a decision doesn't go their own way.

I believe the 1986 World Cup was when it started in earnest. As mentioned previously, a player used to have to be felled, rather than fouled, but from around this time those sneaky eyeties, started falling over as soon as they felt contact. And...because there was some contact the Ref tended to blow for it.

This has since turned into an art form as Uefa wised up, so its not as bad as it was. As for pics of proper 'ard footy players...

[img] https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTxeDeHzy1aL5JwHuAKVgfED8RC5_mUYDlmpFkxsqJqpgwhzP_hqA [/img]

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It's a similar rule in Basketball where players will actively seek to get fouled while taking shots or driving to the basket - because it'll get you free throws, get the opponent into foul trouble, etc. But it's part of the game there and praised as good or clever play.

Ah! Now we're getting somewhere.

I didn't start this thread to criticise football per se. I saw that video and, as a fan primarily of hockey but also with some interest in football, I just thought there is an image of football that has to have come from somewhere. I am sure if I typed in 'football diving' or something like it into youtube, I would get plenty of hits. If, on the other hand, I did the same for many other sports, I wouldn't get the same results. In other words, rightly or wrongly, and however infrequently it happens, the fact is, football has now got something of a reputation for having a diving culture.

That said, I was unaware that a similar culture could be attributed to basketball, so that begins to answer my question.

It's dropping to the floor at the slightest contact that puts me off watching football.

Contact is a foul - as i just said, it doesn't have to break legs before it counts. The game is evolving in that way, where seeking fouls is part of it. It leads to some of the undesirable elements like simulating contact to gain a foul; equally it's taken away the tactic of putting ball, man and half the pitch into Row E and allowed skill to thrive as never before, where players can receive the ball to feet without wondering if Martin Keown would ever let you walk again. But defenders are also learning and not hanging a leg out in the penalty area and giving a forward a chance to win a penalty is also a defensive skillset.

many of the kids emulate their idols by dropping to the floor & rolling around until a decision is made before getting up & trotting off as if nothing happened. That and the flailing of arms & general flouncing when a decision doesn't go their own way.

That's a different matter to the fact that contact is a foul, and does need to be sorted.

Imagine people comparing a popular team sport played on a grass pitch with a ball to another popular team sport played on a grass pitch with a ball. Why ever would they do that

Oh, I dunno, maybe it's because they're not at all similar games?

you may as well compare Aussie rules to crown green bowls, after all, they're both played on grass, by teams, with balls...more or less identical I'd have thought 🙄

Season ticket holder at a league 1 club and my son has played a local club Academy side for last 4 seasons and he trains over 10 hours a week plus a match.

I see very little acting when my son trains or plays and whenever there is some by his side the coach has a word as its not their way so to speak and certainly not encouraged, repeat offenders get subbed and the lads stay down only when there is a genuine reason as they know what happens.

Watching the pro team yes there is some but nothing like the amount that goes on in the Premiership or as others have said how much is highlighted and reviewed on sky etc.

How video technology will address this I'm not sure but the media both TV and Radio must be dreading the day it comes in because what will they talk about on various phone ins or game reviews?

Blatant dives are very rare, and always get a right slagging off pundits, commentators and fans alike.

Only because Ashley Young isn't playing much at the moment 😆

Don't forget that the diving, shouting at the ref, seeing what you get away with is part of the entertainment that is football as well as fair play

I think that's the crux of it, a lot of the 'problems' in football could be solved easily with technology or retrospective action but there is little desire from the governing bodies to do it. The United-Palace game last night had some perfect examples - Pogba goal that shouldn't have been, Rojo should have been off, the handball, United players surrounding the ref, Pardew waving imaginary cards about etc... If every decision was 100% correct what would everyone talk about after the game! This morning the Palace fans will be consoling themselves that United get all the decisions and they were robbed rather than the other view that they were beaten by a better team.

because what will they talk about on various phone ins or game reviews?

Whether its time for Wenger to go?
Is this Liverpools year?

The usual 😀

I'm not saying drawing fouls in Basketball is wrong, it is part of the game and there are ways to do it 'legitimately'. Equally there are some big guys who go down very easily.

It's potentially very similar to football in that there's a lot of contact in both sports that isn't a foul (watch two big forwards posting up against each other, both will defend their space body to body very actively - and then make the shot and the slightest contact on the arm is a foul) - just like in football where two guys will run shoulder to shoulder for no foul, then try to make a tackle, tap the ankle and they're over like Bambi.

theotherjonv - Member

Contact is a foul - as i just said, it doesn't have to break legs before it counts. The game is evolving in that way, where seeking fouls is part of it.

For me, it's not an enjoyable thing to watch when the 'skill' of gaining a foul becomes a major part of the game.
You often see the situation when someone is running towards the goal, with perhaps just a defender & the goalie to beat. There's a bit of jostling but nothing that a strong, fit man shouldn't be able to withstand.....but nope, rather than try to stay standing & on course for an attempt on goal, it is seen as a better solution to drop to the ground & hope you get a free kick or penalty......

It does seem to be the way the game is going - it's now part of the sport. But it is that side of it which puts me off it.
The 'acting' until a decision is made is the icing on the cake....

better example here at about 30s. He fakes the shot, the defender jumps to block and in doing so invades the other player's space (which is basically the rule, each player has a 'cylinder' they're entitled to that the other player has to allow them - you can move the player's cylinder around with your own strength and body position if they allow you but you can't climb into it)

and then at about 1:20 he tries the same move but the defender doesn't buy it.

theotherjonv - Member

- just like in football where two guys will run shoulder to shoulder for no foul, then try to make a tackle, tap the ankle and they're over like Bambi.

Yeah. This. You've explained it very well. Rightly or wrongly as a legitimate part of the game, this is what turns me off watching.....
......they could stay on their feet and make an attempt on goal, but know that a foul might give them a better chance of getting a goal so go to ground.

For me, it's not an enjoyable thing to watch when the 'skill' of gaining a foul becomes a major part of the game.

It's evolution / natural selection - defenders need to catch up about when to challenge and when not to. those that don't have the ability and equally the decision making skills won't make it.

they could stay on their feet and make an attempt on goal, but know that a foul might give them a better chance of getting a goal so go to ground.

It's all about goals in the end; if you're fouled - whether deliberately or accidentally, and whether it came about naturally or through your ability to draw a foul - it's a foul. Taking your chance or swapping for a penalty - another decision for the player to make.

Then there's the clutching of heads/knees etc. if the slightest contact is made & rolling around like they've just been jabbed with a cattle prod.

That. Drawing a foul is one thing - making a drama out of it is much worse.

And as for contact - surely contact IS allowed, as long as it doesn't actually trip someone? You can jostle, for example.

The way I understood it - if you get the ball cleanly, then someone trips over your leg - no foul. If you put your leg in the space their legs should be in order to get the ball then foul, even if you succeed in getting the ball?

It's not clear to me, even though I played 5 years of football at school. Does this mean it's a complicated issue?

I don't, but then that's not what this thread's about is it dearest binbins

How DARE you disagree, now look what you've done...

The way I understood it - if you get the ball cleanly, then someone trips over your leg - no foul. If you put your leg in the space their legs should be in order to get the ball then foul, even if you succeed in getting the ball?

It's not clear to me, even though I played 5 years of football at school. Does this mean it's a complicated issue?

yes.

For a start getting the ball is no longer sufficient for it to be a fair tackle. From the side or the back have different requirements than a head on tackle for example. Tackling from behind - in layman's terms you can't get the opponent irrespective of whether it's ball first, ball second, both together - it has to be a clean tackle. Which in essence means it's virtually impossible, which is deliberate to remove the Keown / Adams type of tackle from the game, and allow players to shield a ball from a defender without worrying whether their achilles was about to be severed.

The [b][u]laws[/u][/b] are clear. Holding, pulling, tripping, kicking, etc. are all fouls. Bodily contact as long as proportionate is not. Interpretation is very difficult which is why every year referees are given guidance on how to interpret the laws consistently. Yet most fans, and frighteningly low numbers of players and TV pundits ever read the International Board Decisions.

The laws are clear. Holding, pulling, tripping, kicking, etc. are all fouls.

Attempting to trip or kick are fouls as well, which very few pundits seem aware of - "no contact" or "minimal contact" don't necessarily mean it's not a foul as long as the intent was to trip or kick, which is where it gets difficult for refs, how do you interpret or prove intent?

even harder when you're short sighted and unsure of your parentage.

I used to ref at local league level. I'd get moaned at continually through the game, then they'd buy me a beer, confess there's no way that they'd ever consider refereeing themself, and try to persuade me not to put the report in where I booked them for calling me a ing useless *

lol at jonv! Clearly there is such an obscene amount of money in the game, people playing at the top level will seek all options to gain an advantage. That is the major problem. Watch the games in the lower leagues and players are far more honest.

even harder when you're short sighted

It leads to some of the undesirable elements like simulating contact to gain a foul

Or blatant cheating to give it its proper name.

I used to go to watch my hometown footie team quite a bit in the late seventies and quite enjoyed it. However the combination of moving away and living in a city where rugby is the main thing has changed my opinion.

It's not just the diving and rolling about pretending to be hurt. There's also the continual complaining to,and about, the referee, the yobbish foul mouthed fans (not all to be fair but there are plenty), the obscene wages paid, clubs that are no more than playthings of billionaire foreign crooks, being treated like an animal when you go to watch and many other reasons. I couldn't care less if Arsenal PLC has a better share price than Manchester Ltd, which is what it mainly seems to be about now.

Mind you, there was a bit of play acting at Murrayfield last weekend that could have been straight out of a football ground, and rugby is, I suspect, a sport in huge denial about steroid abuse, so it's far from perfect either.

I'd much rather watch the Tour of Flanders or Paris - Roubaix these days.

Footballers - what bastards

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-38331624

and as for the fans. Despicable.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-38322612

Poor sod. Sunderland 🙄

So remind me, what lessons can football learn from ice hockey? I can't wait to take my kids to see these role models.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clNPSE01W-M

I went to a fight once, and midway through an ice hockey match broke out.

Watching the refs makes me chuckle. Doing sunday league often used to involve a scuffle of some sort, at which everyone else would say 'aren't you going to stop them?'

What, and risk a stray punch? No, I'll stand here and make a note of the numbers so I can take action when it calms down, ta very much.

So where do we stand on the video ref declaring a foul in that match in Japan this week?
Maybe it would shut Wenger up...

The solution's simple- if someone dives or feigns injury, the other team's Best Fighter gets to inflict on them the tackle or injury that they pretended they'd got.

I blame Klinsmann

And special for bin bins....

Diving seems far worse of a problem if all you watch is Match of the Day, in the course of a full game, particularly as you go down the leagues I do not see it as a major problem.

I still really like that to an extent (bar goal line tech recently in the Premier Leaugue) the game of football you watch on the TV is the same as the game you can watch on a Sunday down the park. Footballs ruling bodies could bring in sweeping change to retrospectively punish divers etc but what makes football so great is that barring real obvious cases there is so much opinion on what constitutes playacting / diving etc.
Even with offside decisions and penalty claims after watching the incident from 4 different angles you can still not be sure sometimes...

For me the problem with football these last few years has been the massive increase in pressure put on referees in the media, it started with managers never blaming their own players and shifting the pressure onto the refs (No problem with that) but now pundits and fans are blaming the refs far more than they ought to.
Referees will get the blame for teams losing more than the player who missed the one on one, or the player who never cut the ball back to feed his team mate.
Lazy ex players in studios still cannot grasp criticizing the players more so than the ref cause the ref is the easy target.
There is so little talk of actual tactics, positioning, style of play etc in the studio and the default position is just to bleat about the ref.

Btw I am not a ref and do not know any 😀

Makes ya tink don't it.

Binners, that's an epic flounce. So typical of a football man...

I help coach kids football and some of them are the mardyiest little shits. Some are tough as **** but then never get any attention. My huge pet hate which I'm trying to stamp out is shoulder barging, it's the most pointless contact and ****ing dirty if you ask me. If you want the ball get the foot in, slide in, get under them don't just steam in with basically a shove!

[i]Binners, that's an epic flounce. So typical of a football man...[/i]

Ah, but he un-flounced shortly afterwards, so was just faking it.. 😉

The football manager was probably and ex player .. lead by example

To try and get rid of some of the blatant cheating ala alpins vids then some sort of reto active punishment via for example a citing committee would be ideal.

Even then some decisions would be difficult given the speed the game is played at but it would be a start and let's face it give the ex players and pundits even more to talk about and someone other than the ref to blame.