[Closed] 9yr old coding

Look at the Raspberry Pi lots of resources on teaching/learning and probably the best choice of coding languages to install as needed.

Plus if you screw it up it's easy enough to wipe the OS and re-install, unlike the laptop which will take hours/days to sort out.

[url= https://www.codeclub.org.uk/ ]https://www.codeclub.org.uk/[/url] got one of these nearby?

http://www.codecademy.com/learn

I cannot help on the specific language that would be advantageous, but have you looked at finding a local [url= https://www.codeclub.org.uk/ ]CodeClub[/url]?

The government's Year Of Code initiative was supposed to help, but...well:

I know only a little about coding...

Depressingly, you're over qualified to be in charge of the government's Year Of Code initiative.

Get depressed from 5:40.

[img] [/img]

Lego Mindstorms (the older sets are reasonable prices on eBay). Beware that USB support for the IR tower only comes with version 2.0 or later.

You can program in Lego's own environment - which uses a block structure and is an excellent introduction - and then move on into LegOS, which is Java based. Or install BrickOS, or many many others.

Alternatively...

http://turtle.hertford.ox.ac.uk/index.html

Turtle Java is a fun introduction.

OK will look for code club good shout cheers.I'm in trouble, she's 10 not 9 and is reading this post!

A high end laptop is fairly pointless if you ask me. Raspberry Pi all the way and how about learning some python?
[url= http://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/#minecraft-pi-recipe-cards-to-download-and-keep ]http://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/#minecraft-pi-recipe-cards-to-download-and-keep[/url]

My daughters just done the app course at school, she's 15. Although it's so dumbed down with a GUI it's fairly pointless IMO. Before that they learn HTML which is more useful.

Have to ask what you're hoping to achieve though. Useful stuff to do programming jobs is going to be at A-Level and above or self taught as an adult.

You don't need to know how to 'code' (what ever that means) unless you're a programmer anyway. And that's not the most lucrative of career paths. If you think they're gonna invent a new facebook, keep dreaming.

You don't need to know how to 'code' (what ever that means) unless you're a programmer anyway. And that's not the most lucrative of career paths. If you think they're gonna invent a new facebook, keep dreaming.

Of course you don't need to learn to code...

But, it really depends on what coding means and where you want to go.

Is SQL, VBA, J-script, XML coding? lots of computing jobs that aren't purely coding where some knowledge helps.

Then again you could become a plumber...

Personally I'd look to see if there is some sort of club in your area. A bit more social and more likely to keep her interest.

If you think they're gonna invent a new facebook, keep dreaming.

Probably not, but who knows. Worth giving them the skills to find out

You don't need to be able to code to invent new websites. I don't think many of these dotcom success stories are created by coders these days.

I'd do something like the PI with some hardware (just some LED's to start with). Just writing code to make the LED's flash in sequence is pretty good, and a lot of coding isn't PC based, it does things, makes things move etc.

It would never be a codling at 9 yrs old. Anything under about 5 ish pounds is a codling, over that it's a cod.

OHHH! 9yr old CODING!

Soz, should've gone to Speckysavers!

Going by Jamies link to the newsnight thing. Clearly they are thinking that this could be beneficial, but essentially haven't a scooby what that benefit is.

Instead of marketing it as everyone should learn how to code or write markup, they should market as everyone should learn to understand the concept of what it is and how it relates to real life work, ie. if someone needs a website or app built or something more complex, it would be beneficial to them if they knew a vague concept of the ins and outs so they could communicate their ideas to who they employ to do it for them. I've personally had the joy of witnessing complete technophobes directing how sites are built, it's not a pretty thing(It's very easy for unscrupulous types to run rings around them and use them as a money pit.).

Well either that or in 10/20 years time the interweb will largely resemble 1998! 😆

So imo the intention is noble, they just clearly haven't a scooby about what the ultimate goal should be..Which should be a lot more geared towards innovations and ideas, something which you don't need to code for, just be able to communicate to coders and designers.

Whilst something like a Pi or similar embedded computer allows one to start coding without knowing anything about how it actually works, i would personally recommend starting with something like a basic Arduino etc.
That way, they get to understand how a microcontroller/microcomputer actual executes the tasks that the coding defines etc!

This, imo, makes for a much better "code writer" in later years!

At the age of 9 forget the Pi and Arduino. Far too many variables and other things to cause frustration.

Scratch is ideal, then maybe some html/css leading into javascript. Code academy is really useful as well. I speak from proper experience as my daughter did just this.

The key was the OP stating " know only a little about coding" so why recommend embedded system programming apart from intellectual speed****ing?

Jamie,

Lottie Dexter is indeed very depressing even though she got Paxo Lite in the interview..

Tend to agree there. If it's high level language (Python etc. - never used scratch, so can't comment), then you're not going to trash a laptop/PC enough to nuke it and start over. It'll be the surfing the net and installing viruses that trashes it. And then you just reinstall everything.

Pi+Arduino are fun though if you want to plug things in, make robots, etc.

More of more of the coding in my technical area is being done in India 🙁

I dabbled with BASIC as a kid, and more recently a bit of scratching in html/asp/php. I'm not sure if the language you code in is really important, rather it's the practice of thinking in a structured/logical manner.

Coding isn't just about writing programs or websites. How many careers use Excel or similar for data analysis? Engineering, finance, medicine...

Anyway, I bought a [url= http://shop.pimoroni.com/products/python-basics-level-1 ]book on Python[/url] for my 10yr old and run Python on Windows.

There's also [url= http://www.alice.org/index.php ]Alice[/url] for generating animated stories - some point and click but with use of coding principles close to the surface.

Not exactly coding, but some fun to be had with [url= http://light-bot.com/ ]Lightbot[/url] - controlling a robot with instructions and uses subroutines for repetitive actions.

As others have said: [url= http://www.lego.com/en-us/mindstorms/ ]Lego Mindstorms[/url] is a great combination of programming and construction/assembly - and there's at least [url= http://www.lego.com/en-us/mindstorms/funzone/mobile-apps/ ]one app similar to Lightbot[/url].

I'm not sure if the language you code in is really important, rather it's the practice of thinking in a structured/logical manner.

this

More of more of the coding in my technical area is being done in India

but definitely not this

The government's Year Of Code

If this thingummy can make those geeky computery things seem a bit less nerdy then it will be a Good Thing (tm) for UK plc, which needs more tech savvy engineers / coders / etc.

If this thingummy can make those geeky computery things seem a bit less nerdy then [b]it will be a Good Thing[/b] (tm) for UK plc, which needs more tech savvy engineers / coders / etc.

[url= http://mulqueeny.wordpress.com/2014/02/08/year-of-code-amdram/ ]It won't.[/url]

it's the practice of thinking in a structured/logical manner

The thing is though, from my many discussions on this subject, it's really not that hard to do. Most people are capable of breaking thing down into a series of steps and, if you provide the framework, they can specifiy things explicitly. Training this isn't going to lead to lots of new programmers emerging, imo.

Having a successful career in development requires that you

a) want to do it
b) enjoy navigating through loads of details to get something perfect
c) have the patience to wade through APIs and not get frustrated or bored
d) have the ability to spend all day concentrating on a computer

In other words, you need to be a geek. Non-geeks may be able to do it, but they probably won't enjoy a career in it. I've trained intelligent non-geeks who can code, but it's uphill.

As long as kids are exposed to development and other areas of IT, and borderline geeks aren't put off by it not being 'cool (which I don't think happens) people will probably find all the coders we will find. I think they are born, not made.

As for which language/platform - I don't think it matters a lot. I'd go for many different platforms, with some real world results.

DavidB

The key was the OP stating " know only a little about coding" so why recommend embedded system programming apart from intellectual speed****ing?

Because something like an Arduino is about as "seamless" as embedded processing gets! I know plenty of "coders" who even now have no idea how a processor actually works, and you can see that in poorly optimised code they write!

Also, Arduino has such a worldwide support base, whatever issue you come across (and you will ALWAYS come across something that is frustrating!) has already been both discussed and solved somewhere on the WWW (lots of good forums etc).

Then we get to the fact that using something like a Arduino to even flash and LED is much more "hands on" and as a result, rewarding to children and teenagers wanting to get started in the electronics field etc. Lets face it, your 10yo isn't going to go out and write and video/Mp3 media server app for their rasberry Pi as a starter, so having a platform that starts very simply, but introduces them to the higher level concepts in a measured manner is important imo 😉

It won't.

Yeah, maybe not, actually.

Is there a credible alternative going on?

can she google? I need some SQL doing

I know plenty of "coders" who even now have no idea how a processor actually works, and you can see that in poorly optimised code they write!

Yes, but she's 9 ffs. That can come later. Waaay later 🙂

<More of more of the coding in my technical area is being done in India>
but definitely not this

What do you mean?

I think they are saying outsourcing is a bad thing for UK jobs.

There are some really good answers already from people who clearly know a lot about programming; Molgrips sums up my view on programming really well, particularly about programmers being born, not made. My only qualification in this is failing to get my 10 year old daughter interested in coding so treat this advice accordingly:

In my opinion you are getting answers from two groups, hardware and software developers. If you and your daughter are interested in hardware the then the an Arduino or Lego is a good option as you are working with a tangible thing.

If you are interested in software stick with the laptop and use a language with an [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_development_environment ]Integrated Debugging Environment[/url] (IDE) that way you can visualise the execution of you code and see why it isn't working. Don't try to code using notepad and a separate compiler/linker etc.

Take a look at [url= http://pencilcode.net/ ]Pencil Code[/url] and [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pencil-Code-David-Bau-III/dp/1494280787 ]book [/url]by David Bau its based on his experience teaching children to code.
If you want the try Java with and IDE there is [url= http://www.greenfoot.org/door ]Greenfoot[/url].

The best advice I can give is find a problem you want to solve and work on it together, There is nothing like having/wanting to do something to motivate your learning. Take a look at [url= http://www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer ]/r/DailyProgrammer[/url] and try to implement [url= http://www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer/comments/23lfrf/4212014_challenge_159_easy_rock_paper_scissors/ ]Rock Paper Lizard Spock[/url], [url= http://www.pythonforbeginners.com/code-snippets-source-code/game-hangman ]Hangman[/url] or [url= http://inventwithpython.com/chapter4.html ]Guess the Number[/url].

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborative_learning ]Lean together[/url] and treat it as [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_programming ]pair programming[/url]

Java isn't a bad option actually as once you're up and running it's fairly easy to create a GUI which will look like a 'real' piece of software, rather than something from an educational environment. If you use Netbeans there's a visual tool for creating Windows and dialogs which is great fun. Although come to think of it you can do that with VB too.

Take a look at /r/DailyProgrammer and try to implement Rock Paper Lizard Spock, Hangman or Guess the Number.

Good idea actually. Fun challenges. I think there's far more scope in that than getting a Pi to do make you tea or flash lights in morse code or whatever.

I'd say any language that lets you see the results very quickly without faffing around with dialog boiler plate coding would be better.

You would need them to get interested in it before exposing them to the full horror of Java Swing or Eclipse RCP! 🙂

I think there's far more scope in that than getting a Pi to do make you tea or flash lights in morse code or whatever.

I'd say any language that lets you see the results very quickly without faffing around with dialog boiler plate coding would be better.

+1

I'd say any language that lets you see the results very quickly without faffing around with dialog boiler plate coding would be better

Depends what the results are. I still get a kick out of making an actual application window come up, it's much cooler than seeing a few numbers in a text window IMO. Especially when I was 9.

And if you use Netbeans you are protected from the boilerplate code - it's really easy.

even better still if the gui dialog builder app is drag/drop and does away with or hides all the vbox/hbox layout nonsense.

You would need them to get interested in it before exposing them to the full horror of Java Swing or Eclipse RCP!

I don't think I'd recommend using Swing or RCP for anything these days, I like Java, think that its going to be the next Cobol (and I mean that in a good way) and in the interests of full disclosure its keep a roof over my head for the last 5 years or so.

If you asked me what to use to develop a graphical user interface for a rich client windows application I'm not sure what I'd suggest.

IIRC they give you an absolute layout manager that lets you plonk what you want where you want. Similar to using a null layout manager.

GrahamA - we're talking about doing something cool and fun, not building career skills. She's 9 years old remember!

What do you mean?

I mean for the recent past my (several) employers have been companies who are/were struggling to fill their UK vacancies with good employees. They weren't sending any work overseas by any kind of free choice. Which is also the case across engineering in the UK, more jobs than good engineers.

I don't think we need more coders. In my (20+years) experience you can train just about any monkey to code.
What is needed, at least in enterprise, is good analysts.
This is the skill we should be developing.

In my (20+years) experience you can train just about any monkey to code.

You know bugger all about coding then.

You can train anyone to code BADLY, maybe. If you can't tell the difference, you aren't qualified to comment.

molgrips

Funny you should say that I was wondering if I should have recommended using Git

If you are using a windows laptop then [url= http://smallbasic.com/ ]Small Basic[/url] is a great place to start.

Well.. you did just call me a monkey.

Because something like an Arduino is about as "seamless" as embedded processing gets! I know plenty of "coders" who even now have no idea how a processor actually works, and you can see that in poorly optimised code they write!
...
Then we get to the fact that using something like a Arduino to even flash and LED is much more "hands on"

[code]
public static void Main()
{
    OutputPort led = new OutputPort(Pins.ONBOARD_LED, false);

    while (true)
    {
        led.Write(true);
        Thread.Sleep(250);
        led.Write(false);
        Thread.Sleep(250);
    }
}
[/code]

[url= http://netduino.com/projects/ ]Netduino[/url] - probably poorly optimised though 😉

A typical coder
[img] [/img]

I don't think we need more coders

You're not a large and successful company employing 1000s of tech staff, I would wager.

I'm only a qualified primary school teacher with a Masters in IT and a decade experience of teaching IT at A level, and who has a ten-year-old daughter, so take my advice with a pinch of salt:

[url= http://scratch.mit.edu/ ]Scratch[/url] is probably the best starting point. It's pretty easy to build relatively sophisticated little programmes and games with it, and there are tonnes of examples online that you can download and build on. Loads of tutorials, too.

If you want to build from that, and especially if you've an old Android phone laying around, you can step up from Scratch to [url= http://appinventor.mit.edu/explore/ ]App Inventor[/url], which is built by the same people.

I'd only go down the Raspberry Pi or Arduino route if she wants to try installing operating systems or building little 'machines'.

I mean for the recent past my (several) employers have been companies who are/were struggling to fill their UK vacancies with good employees. They weren't sending any work overseas by any kind of free choice.

Hmm well the UK is a tough place for an Oracle Apps techie these days, salaries got too high I suppose.

an Oracle Apps techie

Too narrowly skilled perhaps?

Oracle Apps tech is a huge area and getting bigger - not just tech but knowledge of the business suite required. It is possible to switch to general Oracle dev but that's a bit of a career change.

The thought of being skilled only in a particular product area terrifies me tbh. Even though product SME is my current job, I'm at pains to avoid being pigeon-holed as much as possible.

I've ordered this for my 6 year old - not arrived yet but it looks the ticket

[url= http://www.kano.me ]http://www.kano.me[/url]

I don't think we need more coders
You're not a large and successful company employing 1000s of tech staff, I would wager.

Probably didn't make myself clear enough.
We don't need more people that can convert detailed specs into modules, we need more of the analysts that can convert a set of vague business desires into a coherent process flow and then into specifications suitable for coding from. The coding from spec should be straightforward providing that design has been done correctly- coding is one of the later steps in the process, and I'd argue that most of the work in any unit of development should be done by the stage you fire up the coding environment, irrespective of whatever development methodology you're using.
We need the ability to analyse and design.

maga - Looks similar to Scratch, can you post a review when it arrives

[quote=vinnyeh said] In my (20+years) experience you can train just about any monkey to code.

Yeah and I've seen the results 🙂

I'd argue that most of the work in any unit of development should be done by the stage you fire up the coding environment, irrespective of whatever development methodology you're using.

Aaaahhh.. [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_model ]the Waterfall model[/url]. Circa 1956.

Do people ever actually code anything moderately complicated like that in reality?

we need more of the analysts that can convert a set of vague business desires into a coherent process flow and then into specifications suitable for coding from.

Ah, see, that all comes under 'coder' to me, in the same way that the guy who fits your exhaust wrongly at Kwik Fit and a Formula 1 team member are both 'motor mechanics'.

The kind of code factory where people get a spec for a 'module' and write the code is pretty old fashioned these days. That started off being outsourced overseas, now it's being disposed of altogether and replaced with SOA tools and the like.

Last project I was on - one or two Message Broker devs, a few architects, a few more product SMEs and no Java devs. For a project handling huge transaction volumes that will affect us all every day. Everyone was doing the analysis.

Yep, project I'm on at the moment (embedded medical device) all the "coders" do "analysis" as we work in user stories and each story has the relevant requirements attached to it as part of its definition.

Anyway.. this is getting pretty far from the OP...

No, not waterfall. Agile development is the same, albeit on a micro scale. You don't just alter or build code without having put thought into what you have, and what you want to go to from an iteration, and it's this that needs to be taught, not the specificities of syntax.

In fact the ease of transition in IT over the years between different design methodologies and languages illustrates what I'm saying- it's not the coding that's difficult, it's the correct capture and breakdown of business processes, and the resultant design of the solution.

You don't just alter or build code without having put thought into what you have, and what you want to go to from an iteration

Of course, but IMO that's the job of a [s]coder[/s]software engineer, not an analyst.

We don't employ [i]any[/i] pure analysts, just good software engineers who can take reqs, come up with a good design and implement it well.

and it's this that needs to be taught, not the specificities of syntax.

Of course, but it always is - I don't think anyone trains up people without this ability, do they?

If someone describes themselves as a coder, I assume they can do all these things too.

maga - Looks similar to Scratch, can you post a review when it arrives

sure - will do

mega: why didn't you just buy a Pi? You could get those bits for less than £60 - or did you want it all in a single box?

GrahamA: It is scratch.

Always scratch. Its ace, scratch 2.0 with its online aspect is good, it takes some getting used to. But its great. Don't entertain anything else for a year or so.

Then maybe as others have said app builder.

[b][i]GrahamS - Member[/i][/b]
Of course, but IMO that's the job of a codersoftware engineer, not an analyst.

We don't employ any pure analysts, just good software engineers who can take reqs, come up with a good design and implement it well.

Exactly. And software engineering is a quite different discipline to coding. Coding is just writing down instructions in a manner the machine can understand. Software engineering is designing which instructions to write.

Often, and usually, the two are confused, mainly because our industry has built up this mystique of the 'leet haxor coder' who does it all. In the real world, apart from a few exceptions, they don't and can't. At least not well.

I'd love to employ software engineers and have them on my teams. But I get coders.

So by the logic on this thread, what else should we stop teaching as 99% of people won't get it or ever use it again?

I think the point of the Year of Code was that it is useful for people to at least understand a little about code and how you tell machines to do stuff in a structured way. And I don't disagree with that goal.

Most people will spend quite a bit of their life telling computers what to do in one form or another so it makes sense to offer some basic pointers to explain what's [i]really[/i] happening.

I guess an analogy might be electricity? Not everyone is an electrician, but most have a basic understanding of how a switch, plug, fuse, socket and lightbulb work.

A box of 7400 series should do her right. Once she has written her own instruction set you can let have some water.

I'd love to employ software engineers and have them on my teams. But I get coders.

Huh.. maybe some training on the job? Or pay more? I've not met anyone who was a 'coder' as you put it since ooh.. when I worked for Logica or CMG.

I don't agree that people need to learn about coding to use computers. That's like teaching people how to change a big end bearing when you teach them to drive. Technology has moved beyond that now.

However I do think people need to learn about how the software they already have works. General IT skills should be much more than Word and Excel.

General IT skills should be much more than Word and Excel.

Excel would be a good example of software which hasn't "moved beyond that" and is considerably more useful if you know how to "code"

(though to be honest when it starts getting into complex conditional array formulae then I struggle a bit despite my mad skillz)

With some of the convoluted rubbish I've seen in excel sheets, I wish more people could script.

molgrips That's like teaching people how to change a big end bearing when you teach them to drive. Technology has moved beyond that now.

All of the very best drivers i have had the privilege of sitting next too have understood at a base level how the car they are driving works, and that is what makes them exceptional drivers.

Literally anyone can "code" these days as so much of the process is "plug n play" but the number of people who can, imo, code exceptionally well is very much lower 😉

All of the very best drivers i have had the privilege of sitting next too have understood at a base level how the car they are driving works, and that is what makes them exceptional drivers.

I'm not talking about racing drivers ffs. Knowing what a big end is makes no difference to being able to drive down the shops properly.

Bloody geeks.

And what's 'exceptional coding?' Really good code should be really basic and simple, because you've designed it well in the first place 🙂

Really good code should be really basic and simple, because you've designed it well in the first place

I'd call that exceptional coding

Typical STW:

Q. My 9-year-old wants to learn to code, could anyone suggest a starting point?

[i]*argument about the structure of the workforce and the global location of different workplace functions*[/i]

Yes, but this isn't a Q&A site it's a chat forum, So we're chatting 🙂

And what's 'exceptional coding?' Really good code should be really basic and simple, because you've designed it well in the first place

Exceptional coding is done by the sort of people I never employ who take 1000000000000000 years to do everything in minimalist obfuscated bollocks that no other bugger understands or can support. Always advocated by people who would never pay a stonemason to build a wall as it would be too expensive and take too long.