[Closed] 44k in debt....

Especially as interest rates only grow the debt
inline with inflation so it never gets any bigger in
real terms.

Hands up who has had an above inflation pay rise every year over the past five?

Surely the problem here is the cost of living in the SE rather than student loans. You don't have to live/work there. They could afford to buy in one of the many other areas of the UK.

SE is where the work is. In any case, few graduates would have the means to buy a house elsewhere when the average UK house price is around 10x the average UK full time salary.

Because they want their employees to be desperate try-hards with few social skills?

Some of us got a first with virtually no effort 😉 (because I was too busy doing a Saturday job and driving a van in the evening to pay for the sodding thing)

Thanks but I'm a long way from averaging that, at the minute.

The point is it's an erosion of you the difference in your earning potential over someone without a degree. FOr people of relatively similar intelligence and attitude you're not gaining 50k's worth of extra earning potential. No evidence to back that up but I'll shove it out there.

I find it odd that so many see a degree as essential. I was in a meetingt'other week where we were talking about talent attraction and sustainability and all the HR and comms people in there could talk about was graduates and getting in the best grad recruitement fairs. The very definition of a self selecting elite. They were a bit suprised when i reminded them tat most the money we earn comes off the back of dustmen, gas and water engineers, cleaners, electrical fitters, plant operators etc. Most of the skilled end of these trades are earning as much and more than their managers, dirty work in some cases but lucrative - you don't need a degree to do it and we should be looking for their replacements not looking for marketing and business grads.

Not sure waht my point is now - better do some work

I was at uni 2000-2004 and left with a MSci and 17k of student loan and a few k on overdraft and credit cards. Got into an industry using my degree after about a year at $17.5k pa as a graduate and after 6 years I got to $23.5k pa (before the recession and the 20% paycut). For the first four years I was repaying the loan at a monthly payment due to my income that was significantly lower than the interest accrued. I worked out at that rate (assuming continuing wage + inflation) I would have paid the govt. over £80,000 in interest by the age of 65 and still not repaid the capital.

I now work overseas and the SLC have been next to useless in helping me sort out payments and charge me a standard rate based on my location of £350 a month iirc. It has to come from a uk bank so I have to incur charges each month in money transfer and exchange to pay it.

Re: getting on the property market - as a single person renting a property and paying off CC and overdraft from uni etc and living - saving was practically impossible (especially with a bike habit) I worked out to save an deposit for the average property in my area would have taken 24 years...

SE is where the work is

Yep. Why the hell d'you think it's so expensive in the first place?

Hands up who has had an above inflation pay rise every year over the past five?

Hardly ever had an incremental payrise. However I now earn five times what I did in 1998 when I started work - inflation would have only increased this by 50%

<do not rise to the engineer bait, do not rise...>

Njee20 has been out leafleting again:

[img] [/img]

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GrahamS - Member

So what about writers, [s]painters[/s], [s]philosophers[/s], designers ([s]fashion designers[/s]), [s]historians[/s], mathematicians, [s]actors[/s], [s]musicians[/s], economists, lawyers, teachers, [s]linguists[/s], geographers, ...

Where should they go for an education?

Yes, some on of them perhaps a degree is enough as for the rest I doubt they are really that necessary if we have tonnes of them.

B Ark material

Got into an industry using my degree after about a year at $17.5k pa as a graduate and after 6 years I got to $23.5k pa

Seriously, how did you manage to earn as little as 17.5k dollars with an MSci. Even £17.5k is doing well, I'm on more than the latter figure (23k) with exactly 3 months of experience.

It's all about how you apply yourself when you get out. On the one hand I know someone who studied Computer Science at Demonfort and earned a 2:2... who is now earning 45k a year. On the other hand I know someone who recieved a double first in Political Science from Oxford University and an MA, who has been unemployed for a year.

SE is where the work is

You're choice to do 'the work' rather than some 'other work' somewhere cheaper.

That assumes there are suitable vacancies somewhere cheaper.

Like it or not, the SE is the economic centre of the UK.

Yeah, I moved away from home and lived like fugitive Jew in 1943 so that I could get some work experience in London.

It helped a lot, you shouldn't have to do it and I had to save up a fair whack of money - but many of my contempories always make poor excuses for not taking a risk and moving to where there are opportunies. I shouldn't complain though, that's why I have my job and they don't.

are you seriously suggesting that a graduate finishing this summer, could now even contemplate buying a property in the South East of England, with no help from the bank of mum and dad?

Seems to work for most of the people working here (rent a few years then buy a flat/house). I only know of 2 people with money from the bank of mum and dad, and one would better be described as "old money".

<do not rise to the engineer bait, do not rise...>

Unless prefixed by "chartered", just substitute it for "plumber, gas fitter, technician, or cleaner*"

*half joking

I have nothing particularly constructive to add.

The whole extended education situation is, however, particularly screwed up. IMO we do not need 50% of people attending university.

The unis don't care. Every fee is a win.

10k of debt per year sure does make a balls up of a graduates financial situation.

If nothing changes, I'll be encouraging my offspring toward alternate ways of career entry.

Unless prefixed by "chartered", just substitute it for "plumber, gas fitter, technician, or cleaner*"

Think I'll adopt "Senior Software Plumber" as my new job title. 😀

Unless prefixed by "chartered"

Must remember to fill in the forms one day (mind you been saying that for 20+ years)....

Its quite telling that with the increase in fees, senior university staff have started benchmarking their wages against city boardrooms

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/10532752/University-chiefs-five-figure-pay-rises-described-as-inappropriate-and-unfair.html ]more pocket-lining[/url]

[i]One of the largest increases, 16 per cent, went to Calie Pistorius, the vice-chancellor of Hull, who was awarded a salary increase of £15,000 and a bonus of £30,000 to take his total package to £321,000. [/i]

Looks like Blackadder was right about England's elite universities 😀

mrmonkfinger - The whole extended education situation is, however, particularly screwed up. IMO we do not need 50% of people attending university.

The unis don't care. Every fee is a win.

10k of debt per year sure does make a balls up of a graduates financial situation.

Of course it artificially keeps youth unemployment figures low and they don't even get free money. Maybe I'm being cynical...

Of course it artificially keeps youth unemployment figures low and they don't even get free money. Maybe I'm being cynical...

It shouldn't make much of a difference to ages 23+ though, should it.

The world is changing, in 30 years time, those that don't have some sort of higher education will be left behind.

Both me and ms njee20 graduated in 2008

It's rude to ask, but what was your combined income at point of buying your house?

Of course it artificially keeps youth unemployment figures low and they don't even get free money. Maybe I'm being cynical...

When it comes to politics, I don't believe it's possible to be too cynical.

That assumes there are suitable vacancies somewhere cheaper.

I studied Engineering, I drive buses now.

One day, google will put you out of a job.

Fair enough, choosing to be a bus driver and living somewhere cheaper but not everyone wants to - I don't see why you can excuse the Norths level of development and the high house prices down south just because graduates should "bite the bullet".

It's also rather telling that a junior doctor in the South is paid little more than a Bus driver up North. Fortunately, other countries pay graduates better.

It's rude to ask, but what was your combined income at point of buying your house?

Enough to put us in the third highest bracket on today's front page poll, so not incredible, but above average.

As I understand it, one of the biggest impacts of high levels of student debt (other than discouraging people from going to University in the first place), is that it is driving very talented and intelligent people away from careers in academia. This very type of person whose intelligence, ingenuity and impetus has historically been the mainstay of our superb international HE and research reputation is now putting his/her talents at the disposal of the banks, the lawyers and the big 4, devising ever more complex derivatives products/tax avoidance schemes/lies. So the consultants who devised the latest fees structures now cream off the top talent from the very institutions that need them to maintain our place in the international elite and use them to derive schemes and systems that will eventually screw us all. Oh the irony... 😕

OK, 'bite the bullet' was a little harsh. My point remains that it is a choice.

It's also rather telling that a junior doctor in the South is paid little more than a Bus driver up North.

As for Google putting me out of a job, it's starting to happen with home shopping decimating the passengers on rural routes but that's another topic entirely.

today's front page poll

you've lost me there - front page of what?

[quote=GrahamS ]

Unless prefixed by "chartered", just substitute it for "plumber, gas fitter, technician, or cleaner*"

I'm going for "Software Cleaner", but I have a horrible feeling that might have been the one he was joking about. Though it would make me a non-parasite - hah!

oh and footflaps +1 - kind of reassuring to know I'm not the only one (but I haven't found a single job application which mentions it, so maybe I'll carry on not bothering).

LOL at the forum only user, but I'm surprised njee could get a £240k mortgage last year without being in the 2nd highest bracket.

There are always vacancies available, it's the choice of the individual as to whether they are suitable. Hence doing 'other work' that may be far from your ideal work in other areas that is available rather than 'similar work' in the SE. I studied Engineering, I drive buses now.

There was absolutely no point you going to uni then, was there?

It's not unreasonable that a graduate would wish to work in a field at least tangentially related to their studies - that is after all, kind of the point of it.

but I'm surprised njee could get a £240k mortgage last year without being in the 2nd highest bracket.

There was absolutely no point you going to uni then, was there?

Enjoying learning? Testing yourself? Opening up new possibilities, even if you choose not to embrace them?

There was absolutely no point you going to uni then, was there?

I do all my own mechanics and most building mainly from knowledge gained in higher education. I do my own financial management. I learnt my property is not a cash machine (great term binners) and largely as a result of this and living in a cheaper area I am going part time in the next couple of months at 40 which will give me 26 weeks off a year plus holidays. I'm not saying this is a better use of a University education, just a different one.

Enjoying learning? Testing yourself? Opening up new possibilities, even if you choose not to embrace them?

LOL at the forum only user

Just let me know if I can entertain you further with my ignorance and I'll be right on it.

Seriously, how did you manage to earn as little as 17.5k dollars with an MSci. Even £17.5k is doing well, I'm on more than the latter figure (23k) with exactly 3 months of experience.

It's all about how you apply yourself when you get out. On the one hand I know someone who studied Computer Science at Demonfort and earned a 2:2... who is now earning 45k a year. On the other hand I know someone who recieved a double first in Political Science from Oxford University and an MA, who has been unemployed for a year.

Bare in mind this was 2005 but even so. I used to work in Geotechnical Engineering - the contracting side which is notoriously poorly paid. The company I started out for is was notorious for paying graduates poorly and working them very hard for a year or so until they went elsewhere, unfortunately at the time there were not many options. The consulting side pays better but I'm very much a field / project geologist and not to blow my own trumpet after 2 years in the industry I was running £500k - £1.5mil projects.

On the flip side after 6 years of gaining experience I'm now a geo for a Gold exploration company on $120k

On the flip side after 6 years of gaining experience I'm now a geo for a Gold exploration company on $120k

I'd say it would still make sense even for me now. I did earn £13k before with poor a-levels and no great prospects. I worked hard at uni, got a first and now earn lots more and can afford to live comfortably. I also may be redundant in a couple of months, but to be honest I'm not all that fussed.

oh and footflaps +1 - kind of reassuring to know I'm not the only one (but I haven't found a single job application which mentions it, so maybe I'll carry on not bothering).

It seems perverse but when I meet an Engineer who actually is Chartered I always ask them why they bothered! Does seem a complete waste of money unless you're working abroad where they seem to think it means something.

Footflaps - I agree. Why pay money to an old boys club to keep them propped up in their Central London property? Central London is hardly a hub for engineering.

Edit: I'm referring to imeche

[quote=mrmonkfinger ]

LOL at the forum only user

Well I was also trying to be slightly helpful - you have found it now with that hint? I'll even happily admit that part of the amusement is because I rarely venture away from the forums myself.

Tom_W1947 - It shouldn't make much of a difference to ages 23+ though, should it.

Nope, but it gets 50% of the "workforce" between 18 & 23 off the books, that's 50% of 10% of the working age population accounted for (assuming that we count working age as being 18-65) and they've paid for the pleasure of not being on the dole....

[quote=footflaps ]It seems perverse but when I meet an Engineer who actually is Chartered I always ask them why they bothered! Does seem a complete waste of money unless you're working abroad where they seem to think it means something.

To be fair, I did recently wish I was chartered for totally non work related reasons as it might have added a bit of kudos to my evidence (though as it turned out the evidence appears to have been good enough to stand up by itself).

ransos - There was absolutely no point you going to uni then, was there?

It's not unreasonable that a graduate would wish to work in a field at least tangentially related to their studies - that is after all, kind of the point of it.

Another flaw in our system, please decide what you would like to do for the rest of your life at 17/18 and the spend the rest of your life paying for it. Might as well re-open the pits and foundries and take 'em from the cradle to the grave rather than messing about filling their heads with ideas and charging 'em for the privilige.

I can hear the conversations in Surbiton now, "My father went to university and worked all his life as a management consultant and it paid for me to go to University,I've been a management consultant since graduation and it paid for your prep school and tutor, now you can do the same. I'll hear no more of this airy fairy carpentry nonsense under my roof and that's final!"

please decide what you would like to do for the rest of your life at 17/18

That's pretty much what I did, picked my 6th form college as one of the only places in the UK (at the time) which did A level Electronics. Still in that industry 25+ years later, although more systems / SW now.

as an alternative to the debt you could save 40 quid a week from birth and invest in premium bonds never win and youd have enough to pay for uni.. win the average amount and you d be laughing roll in a couple of big wins and you dont need to bother with uni..