FFS
Apparently reparations have been paid
But to the former slave owners
As part of the compromise that helped to secure abolition, the British government agreed a generous compensation package of £20 million to slave-owners for the loss of their ‘property’. The Bank of England administered the payment of slavery compensation on behalf of the British government.
Of course every single person in the UK benefitt4ed from slavery - thats the basis of empire and our riches as a nation and we are still a very rich nation
reparations now? I would take some convincing that there is any reasonable way to work it out.
I have mixed feelings on this one.. apparently I’m somehow related to the French aristocracy that was chased out during the revolution… so I reckon I’m owed some cash on that score..
on the flip side my French ancestors all then buggered off to Mauritius where apparently they subsequently did a roaring business in the slave trade on sugar plantations…
So overall I reckon I’m net neutral when it comes to repatriations owed..
Being deliberately obtuse simply to deflect attention away from the issue solves nothing. As I’ve said; the legacy of slavery still affects millions of people in the UK today. Black people still have far less opportunities available than White people. Black people are still far more likely to suffer injustice, violence, discrimination and deprivation than White people. Now, none of this may affect you, or others on this forum, but that doesn’t mean those issues don’t exist. Opening up a conversation about such is long overdue, regardless of how uncomfortable it might make some people feel.
And being deliberately selective in your stats doesn't help your arguments. The most deprived regions of the UK are are regions with extremely low ethnic diversity. Once outliers are removed data normalised and clustered by class (of the UKs biggest problems) there's little in it between ethnic groups and Indians and ****stanis tend to outperform those with no ethnic bloodlines. Research suggests that opportunity and success are as much if not more to do with family and education than the system which support it. As for violence and injustice, the crime stats show that arrest rates for Black and Asian groups are higher, much higher for black, but charge and conviction are largely similar (within 5%) so does this show injustice or the correct level of arrests? I don't deny that issues exist, but using the big brush of race and historic slavery to paint the picture is obscuring the details and the details matter.
Who do we make out the cheque to?
Black people still have far less opportunities available than White people. Black people are still far more likely to suffer injustice, violence, discrimination and deprivation than White people. Now, none of this may affect you, or others on this forum, but that doesn’t mean those issues don’t exist.
so just to be clear, is the whole of the uk having to stump up the cash, or just the white folks? If the former, I’m not sure these disadvantaged minorities you allude to are going to benefit much from that..
Or are you proposing a tax specifically on white folks?
Can we also include serfdom in this reparations claim?
the inclosure acts were essentially people in power taking away the only means common people had of providing for themselves,
Thats one way of getting tried of the rf. They should pay reparations to the people of this country for all the damage the acts of enclosure did and let’s not get started on the role of the church in all of this
I think the slave owning families that received compo should have a special tax put on them for the next 200 years.
Also all land nicked during the enclosure act should be returned to the public.
We probably should be paying reparations to Iraq, Iran, Kenya, Palestine etc for stuff done in the last 100 years
Its never ending really and largely not possible. however, it would be nice if we learned from our mistakes and treated people decently now. Just look at how we treat asylum seekers, or the Windrush generation.
what about the romans, gengis khan, arab slavers yadda yadda every time this one comes up though I've got to confess that amoebae are a new one...
Harewood House isn't far from where I live, built for the Lascelles family, now Earl of Harewood, paid for by funds from their barbadian estates, which they owned into the 70s. The other people round here with the surname Harewood are more likely to live in the Harehills and Chapeltown areas of Leeds, though also tracing their ancestry back to Barbados. Their houses tend to be smaller*. Point is that this really wasn't that long ago and it is felt personally by many people whose families were at the receiving end of slavery. I donno, have a look at comments under:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/leeds/content/articles/2007/02/22/abolition_harewood_house_feature.shtml
...people tracing their ancesors etc. Does this mean that my wife's family from working class liverpool owe reparations because the shipping routes etc that powered their jobs and general economic prosperity that built the city were part slavery driven? I mean no. Anyway, this probably counts as handwringing, but I don't think that handwashing and waving this away is a good look either when it is real.
*edit in case not obvious: slaves frequently took the family name of their owners. Grotesque sentence to type.
So much ****tery whataboutery in this thread. Can't be bothered. But this sensible question was asked of me...
Im a bit ignorant here, were the British parts of the slave trade largely private or state activities?
Protected and legislated by the Crown and UK parliament, operated by private individuals and companies. Profits weren't all kept by those individuals, they funded the Royal Family and the UK Treasury... giving us a hell of a lot of the buildings and infrastructure we still use and see around us today. See also the "philanthropy" of these slavers in the UK (there's often talk of the "good things" done by them, we're still benefiting from a lot of that vanity spending today).
apparently I’m somehow related to the French aristocracy that was chased out during the revolution…
we need to chase ours out. They can leave their money.
And being deliberately selective in your stats doesn’t help your arguments
I haven't been. Yet you seem to have. Facts are that Black people are more likely to be victims of crime, more likely to suffer deprivation, less likely to go to university, earn less on average, than White people in the UK.
I don’t deny that issues exist, but using the big brush of race and historic slavery to paint the picture is obscuring the details and the details matter.
No details have been obscured.
so just to be clear, is the whole of the uk having to stump up the cash, or just the white folks? If the former, I’m not sure these disadvantaged minorities you allude to are going to benefit much from that..
Or are you proposing a tax specifically on white folks?
What do you think?
What about
There's a lot of whatabouttery on this thread. What about just having a conversation about the legacy of slavery in the UK? Is that so hard?
I notice my initial question has still gone unanswered. I think this speaks volumes.
Funded the war against France
giving us a hell of a lot of the buildings and transport infrastructure we still use and see around us today.
Its questionable how much went in the general pool as opposed to helping fill the pockets of Drax and friends.
Especially if the cost of the West Africa squadron is included.
As always with the tories and their predecessors it was private profit and socialising losses.
Protected and legislated by the Crown and UK parliament, operated by private individuals and companies. Profits weren’t all kept by those individuals, they funded the Royal Family and the UK Treasury… giving us a hell of a lot of the buildings and transport we still use and see around us today. See also the “philanthropy” of these slavers in the UK.
As someone with foreign heritage and ancestry, I do feel somewhat conflicted when visiting institutions such as the Tate Gallery. I think people should have an awareness of what funded those wonderful buildings that line the streets of cities such as London, Liverpool, Bristol, Glasgow etc. But it becomes easier to separate the buildings from their founders, as bricks and mortar can easily outlive ideologies. I think it's important to understand and recognise the part that the 'colonies' had to play in the development of our railways, for example. There is a woeful lack of awareness of the truth behind Britain's rise as a global superpower, and the truth needs to be told. Much of the uncomfortable facts of our history have been swept under the carpet. It's time to lift that carpet and have a good look at the truth hiding beneath.
I’m all for a proper, grovelling apology from the British government to all those wronged by the appalling slave trade, and those still affected by the ongoing disadvantage it has created.
Our prime minister refused to do just this, as recently as April. Perhaps the fact that many in his party are the beneficiaries of the legacy of slavery, is what motivated him to take such a stance.
So much whataboutery in this thread.
Almost as arbitrary as deciding that of all the historical wrong doings which have occurred, slavery suddenly pops to the top of the list and requires reparations...
Our prime minister refused to do just this, as recently as April.
Probably, because if he did it would give legitimacy to claims for reparations etc. Huge can of worms accepting blame for our forefather's actions.
The simplest thing would be to send the bill to anyone with a hereditary title more than 75 years old as this will most accurately reflect those that benefited directly from slavery and the empire (We could also include everyone with any sort of peerage based on politics, political contributions, or general toadyism but that would just be fun).
Almost as arbitrary as deciding that of all the historical wrong doings which have occurred, slavery suddenly pops to the top of the list and requires reparations…
No, you can discuss the effects of the slave trade, who still feels the effects of it (positively and negatively) and if any of that should be addressed and if so how and by whom... without going down the "all lives matter" conversational dead end.
What about just having a conversation about the legacy of slavery in the UK? Is that so hard?
it’s not. What do you want to discuss about it? That it was abhorrent and a stain on humanity? I think most folks agreed it was. Does the legacy of slavery remain today? Yep, in the same way as all history (much of it involving the repression of various groups of folks) has shaped much of society as we know it today
actions taken 200/300/400 years ago or longer shape the world we live in. It’s a fact of life. I’m not going to apologize for what my backward thinking ancestors did many centuries ago, nor am I prepared to pay compensation for their actions
we should however all learn from mistakes of the past to ensure they aren’t repeated
Its never ending really and largely not possible. however, it would be nice if we learned from our mistakes and treated people decently now. Just look at how we treat asylum seekers, or the Windrush generation.
Is the sensible and pragmatic answer.
it’s not. What do you want to discuss about it?
How to try to reverse at least some of the damage done? How to address the issues stemming form that legacy, in order to help create a fairer, more just society? How to move forward whilst still acknowledging that evil was done?
actions taken 200/300/400 years ago or longer shape the world we live in. It’s a fact of life. I’m not going to apologize for what my backward thinking ancestors did many centuries ago, nor am I prepared to pay compensation for their actions
That's ok, because nobody's actually asking you. It's not actually about you. It's about the UK as a society. And as a society, one that hopefully aims towards a less divided and unjust world, we should be looking to make things right. How that takes form, is what this conversation is all about.
No, you can discuss the effects of the slave trade, who still feels the effects of it (positively and negatively) and if any of that should be addressed and if so how and by whom… without going down the “all lives matter” conversational dead end.
Quite.
it is probably easy enough to trace the people living today who are descended from slave traders and colonists. take their money.
Can you prove it's not you or I?
My family's from Lancaster and Morecambe, the odd's of the late Great, Great, Great, Great, Mr Thisisnotaspoon(s) not in some way benefiting from slavery is minute. They might not have been Cecil Rhodes, but some of them will have worked in a supply chain around the ports which boomed from the slave trade.
Like the Gengis Kahn comment on the first page, go back 150 years+ and we're probably all related to someone who worked in middle management at the East India Company. And if not, then the money flowing out from them would have drive a huge part of the economy that they worked in.
[edit, johnx2 made exactly the same point while I was typing]
Probably, because if he did it would give legitimacy to claims for reparations etc. Huge can of worms accepting blame for our forefather’s actions.
How did you manage that leap? Acknowledging that evil was done, and making a symbolic gesture, is a very long way from actually paying trillions of pounds to anyone.
That’s ok, because nobody’s actually asking you. It’s not actually about you. It’s about the UK as a society
I am part of uk society though, so it is about me, and my attitudes. And everyone else in the uk, regardless of race, as like it or not, every single person in the uk has benefited from slavery to some degree. Including you.
What do you think a symbolic apology from our overlords will actually achieve? Do you think the king making a statement on how sorry we are will change attitudes to race in this country? I don’t think it would change a thing personally
Black people are more likely to be victims of crime, more likely to suffer deprivation, less likely to go to university, earn less on average, than White people in the UK
And that's because of ancient slavery is it?
You are attempting to attribute causality on some incredibly shaky ground there.
Lots of immigrant families from the 1950's/60's from all over the world went on to do very well thankyouverymuch. Many multimillionaires. How come slavery never held them back?
Your argument doesn't even stack up when you look within our own country. The poorest performing and most downtrodden demographic in this country is an underclass of white kids stuck in generational poverty. And these kids are growing up in a Britain that tells them that they have to feel guilty because they're benefitting from Transatlantic Chattel Slavery that was outlawed - under pressure from the (overwhelmingly white) people of England and very popular abolitionist movements both in Europe and across the pond - 200 years before their parents were born?
You going to give the descendents of abolitionists a pass from the "reparations"? What about the bazillion other ancient atrocities that nobody alive today is culpable for? Should we start exploring those rabbit holes too?
You, and people who think like you, can jog on tbh.
How to try to reverse at least some of the damage done? How to address the issues stemming form that legacy, in order to help create a fairer, more just society? How to move forward whilst still acknowledging that evil was done?
There’s a lot more at play there than just the history of slavery. Creating a fairer and more just society would mean stepping away from capitalism and rampant consumption. We’ve already been down that rabbit hole on the climate change thread.
The history of any nation is littered with horrendous acts. I don’t know of many people who don’t acknowledge our shitty past as a nation. It’s awful and makes me feel ashamed. Paying out money won’t do anything to repair the damage done. What would you suggest we do?
From the article:
"The study estimates that trillions of dollars are owed in reparations to countries affected by transatlantic slavery. The report, which was published by the University of the West Indies after a symposium held by the American Society of International Law, concludes that the UK alone is required to pay a sum of $24tn (£18.8tn) as reparations for transatlantic slavery in 14 countries".
Note "reparations for transatlantic slavery IN 14 countries".
Doesn't say who to in those countries. As I asked before who do we make out the cheque to?
I come from Ayr, mostly famous for Rabbie Burns who very nearly went to work as an estate manager in the West Indies but decided to stay at home and write A man's A man instead.
A local historian wrote a series of very thorough articles about Ayr and slavery, many local worthies who made their fortunes from slavery are commemorated with streets named after them,statues etc . Some were kind of peripheral to the slave trade, selling supplies to estates in the West Indies or America, some were right in there abducting people, transporting them thousands of miles and murdering anyone who fought back. Certainly made me look at the town with different eyes
That’s ok, because nobody’s actually asking you. It’s not actually about you. It’s about the UK as a society. And as a society, one that hopefully aims towards a less divided and unjust world, we should be looking to make things right. How that takes form, is what this conversation is all about.
Do you honestly believe that forcing the UK to pay reparations will lead to a fairer, more just society? It'll do for racial issues in the UK what Brexit did for regional equality - you'll set it back by a generation or two.
The fact is, it is about him, us, all of us, as that's where reparations will come from and who they'll damage the most. It won't benefit racial equality in the UK - at all. It may lead, perhaps, to better standards of living elsewhere and maybe that's appropriate, but it will do nothing at all for race in the UK except for to make some momentarily feel better, just like Brexit. And just like Brexit, the bill comes due.
I haven’t been. Yet you seem to have. Facts are that Black people are more likely to be victims of crime, more likely to suffer deprivation, less likely to go to university, earn less on average, than White people in the UK.
Now that's rubbish - I know these figures very well - 6% of University places were filled by black UK students in 2022 - they represent 4% of the UK population. 72% of University places were filled by white UK students, they represent 75% of the population. Which group is underrepresented? Blakc people do earn less on average, but that average is skewed by historic trends. Look at recent graduates up to 10 years out of uni, the difference in average salary shrinks from 16% to 1%.. Asians earn on average 46% more...what should we do about that?
What you're making is noise rather than trying to fix the real issues about racial bias which still exist. dredging up slavery and making people pay for it won't fix that in any way.
A local historian wrote a series of very thorough articles about Ayr and slavery, many local worthies who made their fortunes from slavery are commemorated with streets named after them,statues etc . Some were kind of peripheral to the slave trade, selling supplies to estates in the West Indies or America, some were right in there abducting people, transporting them thousands of miles and murdering anyone who fought back. Certainly made me look at the town with different eyes
Seems to me to be an advert for the better teaching of history in schools. The fact is things were pretty horrible in the past (by our standards) that's what progress is all about. Take this for example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimney_sweep
Sounds fun eh? & it wasn't until the later part of the 19th Century that anything was done about it. If you are going to judge slavery etc by the standards of the 21st century, then you have to judge everything by the same standards & you'll inevitably discover that society wasn't very nice. But you also have to think about how the present day will look in 200 years time, (assuming that civilisation still exists), I can pretty much guarantee that to them we will apear barbaric, backward and a legacy of our behaviour will still be affecting those people in the future. So no matter how 'good' you think you are, to our descendents you won't be.
You simply cannot go back and try to right the wrongs that were committed several hundred years ago. The reality is too complex. The way to deal with racism is to dealwith it as it manifests itself now.
But society moves on
Pretty sure my ancestors weren't slaves but as we're descended from normal working people they might as well have been, no security, life and death at the whim of landowners and the aristocracy, limited to no ability to change jobs, indentured apprentices, no real rights, no equality, no vote etc. etc.
A small number of people made a lot of money from the servitude of my ancestors.
Who do I submit my claim to.
Just what the World needs, more things to argue about, this whole thing is just pie in the sky, and only aimed at provoking right vs left again, no doubt we'll see Farage on the TV soon if this thing gets traction.
Mrs Zip is a Huguenot. Can I have a french passport please.
Can we sort the climate issues first please? Those trillions would help massively. Once that’s done we can sit down and discuss who the biggest historical dickheads are. There’s a lot of competition so it might take a while.
no security, life and death at the whim of landowners and the aristocracy, limited to no ability to change jobs, indentured apprentices, no real rights, no equality, no vote etc. etc.
A small number of people made a lot of money from the servitude of my ancestors.
Much of that sounds like present day under the tories tbf..
Yep, slavery facilitated the accumulation of capital which was then used to create the first industrialised nation: Britain. However, standards of living and life expectancy fell between 1780 and 1840, the industrialists got rich and the newly evolving working class got screwed. It's a class issue.
