That's quite an ask, 8 years GDP..
The study estimates that trillions of dollars are owed in reparations to countries affected by transatlantic slavery. The report, which was published by the University of the West Indies after a symposium held by the American Society of International Law, concludes that the UK alone is required to pay a sum of $24tn (£18.8tn) as reparations for transatlantic slavery in 14 countries. Of that sum, about $9.6tn is due to Jamaica. The report uses calculations made by the Brattle Group, which factors in the wealth and GDP amassed by countries that enslaved African people.
Bit more than the £100k Gladstone family were offering up - barely more than their ancestor received back in the day...
After slavery was abolished in 1833, John received the largest compensation payment made by the Slave Compensation Commission - about £93,000, the modern equivalent of about £10m.
Blind eye turned to modern slavery as well ? Madness. Do we take action against Italy for their Roman descendants, or the Scandinavians for Vikings. Must also count in the destruction the Christian Crusades caused in the Middle East.
Yeah, but he's being generous that we have 10-25y to repay it. Easy done...
Also - where does it end? War reparations in WW1 and WW2 were $320bn (Germany), but were massively written down and subsequently never paid. American Revolution deaths and industry nationalisation? There's a statute of limitation on most crimes, no?
Blind eye turned to modern slavery as well ? Madness. Do we take action against Italy for their Roman descendants, or the Scandinavians for Vikings. Must also count in the destruction the Christian Crusades caused in the Middle East.
Add it to the tab...
UK cannot ignore calls for slavery reparations, says leading UN judge
i think he'll find that in fact we can.
Put this on the list next to "Hand over Diego Garcia" I suppose
i think he’ll find that in fact we can.
And not only that, we should...
This is the problem with the hand-wringing left. They think the people of today should be punished for stuff they weren't even alive when it happened. But the left of that extreme persuasion, in their green-eyed envy, can't think straight.
They won't make the case for murder tho eh? Maybe we should be punishing people today for the murders of their ancestors (Charlie would be on the hook, for starters).
Another arsehole looking for their 15 minutes of fame.
This is the problem with the hand-wringing left. They think the people of today should be punished for stuff they weren’t even alive when it happened. But the left of that extreme persuasion, in their green-eyed envy, can’t think straight.
Hmm.
Quick question: how many commenting here are of West /Indian heritage?
Fro those asking 'where does it end'; the legacy of slavery and oppression of Black people still exists in our society, to a very large extent. Many people who enjoy extreme wealth, privilege and power in our society today, do so as a direct result of that slavery and oppression. For just one example (of countless cases); both former prime minister David Cameron and his wife are direct descendants of those who profited from slavery, and enjoy immense privilege today as a result. Many of those who influence, shape and govern your lives are such people. The entire modern British class system has its foundations in slavery and exploitation by violence. For an example of much more recent and direct beneficiary of such injustice; Margaret Hodge of the Labour party is the descendant of a family which made vast riches from the mining industry in South Africa. The legacy of slavery is evident not only in the names of those descendants of slaves, but in our public institutions; our universities, our banking system, and in the institutionalised racism inherent in our greater society. In 2023, we are still nowhere near an acceptable level of real equality, justice or even democracy. Poverty and deprivation in those former 'colonies' are the lasting, concrete legacy of slavery and exploitation. So, perhaps it 'ends' when those wrongs have been righted. Will that ever happen? I very much doubt it. Should it happen? 100% yes.
Another arsehole looking for their 15 minutes of fame.
Or perhaps simply looking for a better resolution than what is currently not happening?
So, perhaps it ‘ends’ when those wrongs have been righted.
For all history - back to amoebas attacking other amoebas in a primordial swamp? Should their descendants be held accountable?
There’s a statute of limitation on most crimes, no?
That's assuming you actualy did a crime personally, it sounds a bit silly but why stop at the vikings? apparently 1 in 200 people are descendants of Genghis Khan so a lot of people would have to dig deep for the compo claims.
Thats a very limited and specific posting history
For all history – back to amoebas attacking other amoebas in a primordial swamp? Should their descendants be held accountable?
Being deliberately obtuse simply to deflect attention away from the issue solves nothing. As I've said; the legacy of slavery still affects millions of people in the UK today. Black people still have far less opportunities available than White people. Black people are still far more likely to suffer injustice, violence, discrimination and deprivation than White people. Now, none of this may affect you, or others on this forum, but that doesn't mean those issues don't exist. Opening up a conversation about such is long overdue, regardless of how uncomfortable it might make some people feel.
All true, but if the government was to suddenly cough up a huge amount of cash, who do you think would feel the (negative) effects of that? It wouldn't be the rich folk still reaping the rewards of actions taken hundreds of years ago
apparently 1 in 200 people are descendants of Genghis Khan so a lot of people would have to dig deep for the compo claims
Always struck me as a curious historical figure, seems lionised in many accounts. But to me, seems like a complete barstad. Although hes not alone in that.
Being deliberately obtuse simply to deflect attention away from the issue solves nothing.
Well, not at all, if you are going to make a law or establish a precident, it has to be universal, so the Aomeba angle is perfectly valid. Where do you draw a line? 200 years ago, 500? a million?
Let's say 200 years. What about someone wronged 201 years ago? Tough luck?
UK today. Black people still have far less opportunities available than White people.
I agree, but that is a social /political issue.
This is the problem with the hand-wringing left. They think the people of today should be punished for stuff they weren’t even alive when it happened.
Hang on. These aren't punitive fines. It says 'reparations', which means paying to fix the damage that we caused. And we did cause a LOT, and it still isn't fixed. So...
This is the problem with the hand-wringing left. They think the people of today should be punished for stuff they weren’t even alive when it happened. But the left of that extreme persuasion, in their green-eyed envy, can’t think straight.
For all history – back to amoebas attacking other amoebas in a primordial swamp? Should their descendants be held accountable?
A simple way of viewing whether it's right or wrong to pay reparations would be to look whether we (as a modern country) benefit from being the criminal in the past. Would we be the 5th largest economy in the world if it wasn't for slavery? If not then why do 'we' who were just born lucky into a country that made a fortune off the back of the rest of the world deserve that position?
So a figure of 8 years GDP probably is accurate, it would cripple our economy back to a level that isn't disproportionate to our global position.
In the case of German war reparation's, everyone (in Europe anyway) came out of the wars with similarly broken economies, there were no winners.
Do I want it to happen though ....... naaaa... I'm alright Jack.
Hang on. These aren’t punitive fines. It says ‘reparations’, which means paying to fix the damage that we caused. And we did cause a LOT, and it still isn’t fixed. So…
Surely its worse than that, slavery was profited from, then followed up by colonialism
we did cause a LOT,
"we" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. As "we" didn't all gain equally from the mistakes of the past then "we" shouldn't all have to make equal reparations.
Hang on. These aren’t punitive fines. It says ‘reparations’, which means paying to fix the damage that we caused. And we did cause a LOT, and it still isn’t fixed. So…
OK so what about Russia? China? The Middle east? Africa? attrocities have been going on since well, forever, and by all societies against pretty much all other societies at one time or another.
In order to be fair, where do we draw the line?
A) geographicaly
B) historicaly
In order to be fair?
Well, not at all, if you are going to make a law or establish a precident, it has to be universal, so the Aomeba angle is perfectly valid.
Nonsense.
I agree, but that is a social /political issue.
That has its origins in past events, such as slavery.
All true, but if the government was to suddenly cough up a huge amount of cash, who do you think would feel the (negative) effects of that? It wouldn’t be the rich folk still reaping the rewards of actions taken hundreds of years ago
A very good question. I think to take the demand for specific reparations as suggested, too literally, is to miss the point of opening up the conversation. I don't believe for a minute that Judge Robinson is actually demanding the UK has to pay such reparations, but by placing such a figure on the 'cost' to Black people of slavery, is a way of attempting to describe the magnitude of such atrocities committed. Only an idiot would truly believe that the UK is about to pay such vast sums out of public coffers. But if we open the conversation up more, then perhaps we can find ways in which the UK can actually start to help in directly beneficial ways; addressing the racism within our own society would be a start. Overhauling the education system so that children are taught a broader perspective on slavery would be good, as well as making changes to ensure a greater balance of representation at university level. Things that are well within our society's ability. And then perhaps we could move to examine the profits certain companies and organisations are still making today, and at ways to steer those profits towards benefiting the greater public good rather than further enriching an elite few. It's worth remembering that following the abolition of slavery in the UK, many slave 'owners' were paid vast sums in compensation, whilst those who were enslaved got nothing. All the while nothing is done, nothing is ever resolved.
So a figure of 8 years GDP probably is accurate, it would cripple our economy back to a level that isn’t disproportionate to our global position.
If any UK government tried it, Im almost certain we would end up with a genuinely extreme, probably fascist and deeply racist government in a very short amount of time. No one would win, least of all those with the genuine wrongs committed against them.
Well, not at all, if you are going to make a law or establish a precident, it has to be universal, so the Aomeba angle is perfectly valid. Where do you draw a line? 200 years ago, 500? a million?
It's not really though is it?
Who do you define as having benefitted from the rumble in the primordial soup?
Ditto the Romans, is the UK worse off for being a Roman colony? If anything I'd say the modern UK is probably a net beneficiary of that legacy even if at the time some Picts and Celts might have disagreed.
They think the people of today should be punished for stuff they weren’t even alive when it happened.
Think of it as compensation, not a fine.
If we took out the "national" angle, and it was companies being asked to pay the compensation despite a change of management, it wouldn't seem strange at all.
Given that oil rich Arab nations were just as involved, it may not be so bad.
I'm putting in a claim against the Italians, what did the Romans ever do for us?
If any UK government tried it, Im almost certain we would end up with a genuinely extreme, probably fascist and deeply racist government in a very short amount of time. No one would win, least of all those with the genuine wrongs committed against them.
Hence the un-quoted end of my post.
Doesn't make it any less 'fair' as a figure.
@mattyfez - why stop at national boundaries? What about compensation for the displaced folk of the Highland Clearances, those who suffered during the Irish potato famine etc?
And are we going to displace all the non-native Australians, Americans etc to restore those lands to the descendants of their original inhabitants?
We're going to need a bigger [s]boat[/s] spreadsheet.
If we took out the “national” angle, and it was companies being asked to pay the compensation despite a change of management, it wouldn’t seem strange at all
Im a bit ignorant here, were the British parts of the slave trade largely private or state activities?
As “we” didn’t all gain equally from the mistakes of the past then “we” shouldn’t all have to make equal reparations.
completely agree. it is probably easy enough to trace the people living today who are descended from slave traders and colonists. take their money.
it’s a bit like how do you return land to first nations people. not many people alive today are descended from people who stole any land. most people living in former british colonies aren’t even descended from them, but it would be easy to find out who are.
unfortunately, like the folk who profited from slavery, they still have a great influence with our leaders and influencers so nothing will be done about it. see also the state of the housing market, etc…
I see the point, but why single out the UK? The Spaniards, Dutch, French and Portugese have all been pretty naughty, and that's just some Europeans, off the top of my head.
Can you see the Chinese making 'reperations' for the conquest of Tibet?
It would need to be a global consensus, good luck with that.
Strong post, though, by the way. It's certainly sparked an interesting conversation.
Overhauling the education system so that children are taught a broader perspective on slavery would be good, as well as making changes to ensure a greater balance of representation at university level.
I wasn't taught any Welsh history - my history - when I was in school, in the 80s. My kids have barely been taught any either, other than a few key snippets. Our history, as taught to us, is the history of the English monarchy and ruling classes. I agree with you in general, but would suggest that we also start teaching the history of the actual people, the working classes of this country. But that would be dangerous, because that's a history of oppression and inequality and I'm sure that our betters don't want us to wake up to that.
Also I'm Welsh, so, given that in the late 13th century, King Edward I conquered Wales, claiming it as a territory of England, where's my dosh?
Everyone on the planet should have a DNA test so they can find out who they are and where they came from 🤔.
Only '£50' each at the moment on a popular historical data gathering website.
Then we can submit a claim to a share of the cash and possibly the option of a passport 🤔.
As I’ve said; the legacy of slavery still affects millions of people in the UK today
How will sending a made up amount of money to countries round the world who also had local beneficiaries from the trade actually help any of those who are suffering the legacy of slavery in the Uk? Are we going to ask the descendants of the African tribes who actually did the enslaving and sold thier own people into slavery to make a contribution to the bill?
One other point that doesn't seem to have been adressed, who actualy gets this compensation?
In the case of say, Jamaica, for example, would it go to the Jamaican government, or to individuals?
I know the UK government is pretty corrupt, but if the 'UK' gave trillions of £ to jamaica, what's to say the Jamican government wouldn't snaffle it all up, leaving Jamaican citizens exextly as they are now?
And also, would the United States also be equally liable for any reperation? Seems only fair they should be.
And also, would the United States also be equally liable for any reperation? Seems only fair they should be.
See my previous post. Once all the "immigrant" Americans have been deported to the lands of their forefathers, there will be nobody there who benefitted.
See my previous post. Once all the “immigrant” Americans have been deported to the lands of their forefathers, there will be nobody there who benefitted.
Were they all forcibly transported to the US?
I agree this is far more about opening a debate that needs to happen.
I'm all for a proper, grovelling apology from the British government to all those wronged by the appalling slave trade, and those still affected by the ongoing disadvantage it has created.
I'm not convinced that throwing money at it after nearly 200 years is a sensible option - it opens a whole international can of worms as to who owes who what and for when.
suggest that we also start teaching the history of the actual people, the working classes of this country. But that would be dangerous, because that’s a history of oppression and inequality and I’m sure that our betters don’t want us to wake up to that.
quite. the inclosure acts were essentially people in power taking away the only means common people had of providing for themselves, other than working for the people who had just made it illegal to continue living as they did. the creation of the working class.
anyway, slight derail. sorry.
I agree this is far more about opening a debate that needs to happen.
Id rather suspect its a debate thats been going on longer than ive been alive
quite. the inclosure acts were essentially people in power taking away the only means common people had of providing for themselves, other than working for the people who had just made it illegal to continue living as they did. the creation of the working class.
anyway, slight derail. sorry.
I don't think it's necessarily a derail, because all history is linked. Many of my ancestors moved to this area to work in heavy industry, from Ireland among other places. So, because of aggressive English policy in Ireland, my ancestors moved to find hazardous work in the pits and copperworks around here. Among the things that the copperworks produced were the copper ingots used in the slave trade. Were my ancestors complicit in the slave trade?
