Stop cars parking on footpaths so pedestrians can use them as intended. The problem is that there is no roi on there
Never heard of parking tickets? FFS.
doing it blanket for all roads is just daft
YET AGAIN they have not done it for all roads.
I can see myself getting held up a lot, especially when out on the road bikes or CX bike.
This, there are plenty of residential roads that are fast on a bike and I will have to slow down.
I’m still waiting to see some independent evidence to support the claims of 20mph speed limits. As far as I can tell they are just a money making scheme. If the powers that be were interested in safety then widen footpaths. Stop cars parking on footpaths so pedestrians can use them as intended. The problem is that there is no roi on there so we will just make vehicles go slower and call it done
Are you seriously saying that you don't believe driving more slowly is safer than driving faster? I mean, surely you don't need to see evidence for that? All the other crap you have mentioned would also be safer if drivers were not driving as fast.
I assume I'm just feeding the troll now though....
I saw this elsewhere, and it seems appropriate to paste it here...
Imagine a child throwing a tantrum because their parents won’t let them ride their bike as fast as they want.
That’s what I see grown adults do every day.
They’ll throw little tantrums because the car in front is sticking to the speed limit.
Especially in a 20mph zone.
Actual tantrums.
By actual adults.
(If you ask them about it, they actually try to justify it, the same way a child would!)
So if you’re learning to drive, and there’s an ‘adult’ behind you throwing a tantrum, try not to let them affect you too much.
Imagine them rolling around on the floor screaming in ASDA because the queue is too long.
That’s basically what they’re doing.
and serves only to generate speeding fines and make people irate
Only thing that generates speeding fines is not driving to the terms of your licence and the rules of the road.
And if that makes people irate, maybe they shouldn't drive?
that would have taken 4 mins at a constant 30mph, but would now take 6 mins. So a 2 min gain
Let's be honest, a week's worth of commuting with time added on for 20mph zones is approx 1/50th of the time spent on STW. I'd look at one less thread per day, if saving time somewhere else really mattered that much.
In a typical urban environment with frequent junctions and changes in speed where 20 limits are applied the lower speed saves fuel and lowers emissions by reducing the highly polluting acceleratin and deceleration phases.
100% agree and that makes sense in a typical urban environment - i.e. town or city.
(the vast majority of Wales is not your typical urban environment. 😉 )
Oh, are we playing pedantry bingo now?
Ok - all roads that are not explicitly designated as 30 with lamposts every however many meters. Interestingly, most people on the speed awareness course I did some years back didn't even know this was a thing (hardly surprising).
One of the unintended consequences of this legislation is that people are now doing 20 in roads signposted 30, which is hugely annoying.
I'm not sure there's a point debating this if people are not going tom acknowledge the difference that exists between things written on a page and what actually happens in the real world and pretending that there isn't an element of revenue generation in not re-designating certain roads as 30 when the local authority know that people will continue to exceed that speed because ‘big wide road’. Now, I’m sure you’re going to say something about ignorance being no excuse, but the council know it’s going to happen, so they could signpost it, but they’d rather just rake the cash in, which rather spoils the message that it’s about safety.
One of the unintended consequences of this legislation is that people are now doing 20 in roads signposted 30, which is hugely annoying.
It's a speed limit, not a target. HTH.
I was rather upset to find Rover way, lamby way and wentloog avenue were still 40/30 mph. Was looking forward to maybe cycle-commuting to work.
The only fairly minor negatives I have with driving in 20mph zones (in London in my case) are firstly being tail gated by locals who presumably know where the speed camera's are and try to force you to drive quicker. It adds a bit of stress to driving in London and the answer for my circumstances is simple - don't drive in London (except where you have no alternative) where the public transport infrastructure is excellent.
The other minor thing is the blanket nature of the 20mph zones. Occasionally you are on a dual carriageway (with no pavements) and 20mph feels incredibly slow. I do appreciate that you are causing less pollution though at this speed.
This, there are plenty of residential roads that are fast on a bike and I will have to slow down.
Might have to be careful/sensible about risking a charge of "riding furiously" or whatever its called.
If the speed limit in a built up area has been reduced for safety, I'm just putting it out there that Rule#1 might apply for people cycling through it.
I drive through a few stretches of new 20mph limits in Oxfordshire on the way to and from work. It's all quite relaxing tbh. 20 on the dial does feel slow but you get used to it.
If people always stuck to below 30 in 30 zones maybe it wouldn't have been needed but a 30 zone w/o cameras means a lot of drivers doing more like 40 and some at 50-odd. Families live in those houses and kids should be safe on or around the minor roads by their homes. If drivers have to slow down, be ticketed, whatever, to make that the case so be it. I don't see what there is to complain about? Take a different route if you don't like it.
Once everyone is used to it it will not even be remembered. I have driven 45,000 in my car since new and have never reset the overall average speed. I drive on a lot of A and B roads where average speed is between 40 and 60 but also drive through towns and get caught up in rush hour and weekend traffic.
My average over that 45,000 miles - 26mph.
I would guess that if that had been with 20mph limits in place of 30mph that would be about 25.9mph...
people must have very content and happy lives, in the grand scheme of things, if this is the thing they are going to waste their energy on getting irate about.
Here in Cambridgeshire there are a couple of 20mph limits near my village. So far I have managed to evade being caught/fleeced by sneakily driving at 20mph. It has not killed me, nor has my car exploded. If I can do it, anyone can.
Might have to be careful/sensible about risking a charge of “riding furiously”
A lot of people are driving furiously, at the moment, but not perhaps in the same way 🙂
the vast majority of Wales is not your typical urban environment
And that's why the vast majority of Wales is still not 20mph.
I’m not sure there’s a point debating this if people are not going tom acknowledge the difference that exists between things written on a page and what actually happens in the real world
you could just leave it as this for every STW driving (or cycling on the roads) thread ever
I don’t really get it, just drive a bit slower, its really not hard.
Yeah me too - it is odd that anyone finds it an issue. I live near a 20mph zone and the amount of people that actually stick to the limit is alarmingly low. I have been overtaken more than once when driving at the speed limit.
100% agree and that makes sense in a typical urban environment – i.e. town or city.
(the vast majority of Wales is not your typical urban environment. 😉 )
You do know the vast majority of roads are not within this 20mph zone?
There still will be 30/40/50/60/70 mph roads all over Wales.
You won't be doing 20mph over Pen y pass or A40 past Camarthen - unless the traffic is bad as usual...
The traffic will have to be good to be going 20mph there 🙂
I'm going to try and get out for a road ride later on some of the roads that are most affected. It'll be interesting to see if I can ride with traffic instead of being passed.
My favourite claim by the antis, was that improved road safety is a bad thing because it will decrease the number of organ donors. If those are the straws you are grasping you don’t have much of an argument.
I think those speculating about imminent 20mph Armageddon would do well to look at those areas where this has been in place for a while. As indicated earlier on in this thread, we have had blanket 20mph limits in residential areas of the Scottish Borders for about 3 years now.
On implementation we had people complaining that 20mph was higher risk as drivers would get bored at that speed and look around more, resulting in more accidents. We also had people saying that it was more dangerous as they would have to watch their speedo more carefully and this would take their eyes off the road!
Oh, and people who said buildings would fall down due to the increased rumblings caused by slow lorries. And, obviously, all of the shops would go out of business as no-one would come into the area due to 20mph limits.
We also had death threats being sent to the council officers responsible for implementing it.
Well, none of the predicted doom happened. Everyone just slowed down a bit and got on with their lives. It is easier to pull out of junctions, cycling on the roads is nicer. Kids find it easier to cross roads and the world just carries on. Just like it does in Europe where 30kmph is the norm in built up areas.
Remember, if it makes Daily Mail readers furious, it is probably a good thing for the rest of us. Don't be like a Daily Mail reader.
Remember, if it makes Daily Mail readers furious, it is probably a good thing for the rest of us. Don’t be like a Daily Mail reader.
A fine rule to live by.
Someone on a Facebook post claimed that on Sunday morning their usual 15 min journey to the swimming pool took an hour and a half, due to the lower speed limit.
I’m going to try and get out for a road ride later on some of the roads that are most affected. It’ll be interesting to see if I can ride with traffic instead of being passed.
I've been out around town all day doing errands and lots of drivers aren't sticking to 20 so currently it's no different. I stuck to 20 along Albany Road and had the usual queue of impatient drivers behind me while the Deliveroo riders were speeding past on their illegal electric motorbikes.
It'll take a good few weeks for any change to be noticeable.
excuses I've heard -
older kids should know better around roads. it's there problem if they step out in the road
it will take emergency vehicles longer to get anywhere
delivery vehicles will not be able to do as many rounds so it will cost us more money to get stuff delivered
it will cause more pollution as my car will be driving at higher rpm
I can't drive my car at 20
my car doesn't have cruise control
not everyone has an electric car
cyclist can go faster down hills, therefore it's more dangerous
what about all the illegal scooters
prove to me driving at 30 is dangerous
the 'people' did not consent to a change to 20
it goes against the norms of the country, which is a 30 in urban areas
its unenforcable and therefore shouldnt be done
it will mean more overtakes and therefore more accidents
I gave up on the relentless barrage of ****tery
roll on automated vehicles where choice on speed is taken away from people
Like most streets of it's ilk, Albany Road (Cardiff I assume) has had a 20mph limit for some time. I am not sure how many changes we will see on the ground, as the Council already had implemented 20 mph in residential areas, and has designated a nummber of arterial routes as 30. So most of the pre-existinig signs will still be saying the right thing, though no doubt there will be changes with some previously 30 roads now 20.
20mph is more than the urban average speed.
When I commuted (by bike) car drivers would dream of being able to achieve 20mph.
What's the pro lem?
There are few roads where slowing down is going to be noticeable that I use, one of which is @51.5259491,-3.1678058,3a,75y,237.55h,83.59t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0QT07u2L-jgK4yjfc98hsA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D0QT07u2L-jgK4yjfc98hsA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D65.555244%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu">Rhyd y Penau Road.
During COVID they put some speed bumps and a crossing at the bottom of that hill because there's a nice woodland path that crosses the road and it had kids on bikes and walkers etc crossing a lot. That limits your speed, then there's parked cars on each side after that as you approach a busy roundabout which was made 20 a while ago. So only the hill in this picture was fast. In the pictures it's signposted 30 for a few hundred metres. If that goes to 20 then it will take mere seconds longer.
20mph is more than the urban average speed.
When I commuted (by bike) car drivers would dream of being able to achieve 20mph.
What’s the pro lem?
Average journey speed is not the same as driving along speed.
Every junction, queue etc (and of course, driving below the posted limit when the situation dictactes) is slowing you down.
I can do a fairly extended motorway drive, with the cruise control set to 72, and have a journey average of about 55. the 2 miles of slow urban traffic at each end takes a massive chunk off the average speed, which would very hard (ie requiring very illegal speeds) to catch back up.
Someone on a Facebook post claimed that on Sunday morning their usual 15 min journey to the swimming pool took an hour and a half, due to the lower speed limit.
Which means either / or
- They have been driving everywhere at 40mph in a 30mph zone.
- That they are driving 15-2o miles to get to a swimming pool - completely on residential streets and busy lanes?
I am struggling to think of a city in Wales that is over 15 miles in diameter....?
Which means either / or
– They have been driving everywhere at 40mph in a 30mph zone.
– That they are driving 15-2o miles to get to a swimming pool – completely on residential streets and busy lanes?I am struggling to think of a city in Wales that is over 15 miles in diameter….?
Mathematically they would have to have gone from 100mph down to 20?
Although I suppose their argument was that somehow it increased congestion, which meant they sat in a traffic jam for 75min.
That and their timekeeping is like my OH's. In her head she can be anywhere in 5 minutes by car. So if there's traffic and she's half an hour late then it's the traffic's fault. Nothing to do with her being 15 minutes late leaving the house, and it actually being a 15 minute journey, of which a few seconds was added by traffic.
Average journey speed is not the same as driving along speed.
Every junction, queue etc (and of course, driving below the posted limit when the situation dictactes) is slowing you down.
Indeed, but if you logged your speed around town between two junctions it would something like:
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 10 15 20 25 30 25 20 15 10 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
And now it would be:
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 10 15 20 20 20 20 20 15 10 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
The actual change in average speed is going to be tiny.
And that's assuming an empty road in the middle of the night. In the real world you're crawling along well under the limit because traffic can't flow. So in the real world it'll probably make no difference, or more likely actually speed things up a bit as traffic flows better.
Well according to this (Dunno how trustworthy the numbers actually are) the average UK car journey is 21.5 minutes and a distance of 8.4 miles, so an extra minute adds a whopping 4.6% to the time you're stuck in your upholstered box with climate control and a stereo...
I found this one interesting:
People spend 16.8 minutes walking on average when they complete a trip mostly on foot. Those heading on longer walks tend to stay out for 31.3 minutes.
So people seem more prepared to spend time sat in cars than walking (seems to align with the 15 minute cities though). And half an hour is considered a "long walk"...
people must have very content and happy lives, in the grand scheme of things, if this is the thing they are going to waste their energy on getting irate about.
Indeed Imagine someone from Libya who's entire family has just been washed away reading this thread and thinking "Blimey, I thought I had problems!"
That and their timekeeping is like my OH’s. In her head she can be anywhere in 5 minutes by car
That is familiar, My missus has pretty much the same understanding of how Cars travel through time and space, the mega-disruptive roadworks in Reading this last couple of weeks have helped to adjust her understanding a bit I think...
In traffic drivng along speed is sporadic the difference of 10mph will be minimal. How many time have you had someone over take you and speed away only to catch them up at the next pinch point.
If I had to drive to work it used to take longer than cycling very gently speed in urban situations is way of kidding yourself you are hurrying.
I've ended up emailing my mother to make sure she knows, given I expect there to have been plenty of changes around the Rhyl/Prestatyn area.
Stop cars parking on footpaths so pedestrians can use them as intended. The problem is that there is no roi on there
Never heard of parking tickets? FFS.
You're not going to get a parking ticket for parking up on the pavement (subject to various caveats where you might but it's not unlawful in itself).
It’s a speed limit, not a target. HTH.
I'm so bored now of this hoary cliché. Driving at or near the limit is absolutely a target so long as it's appropriate for the road conditions. Go drive round at 20 in a 30 on your test without good reason to do so and you will fail. Driving too slowly can be classed as a CD30 ("being an insufferable pain in the arse to other road users") and that's 3-9 points. "But it's a limit not a target, officer."
Also, excessive speed differential can cause problems. If you did 20 on an NSL dual carriageway you'd potentially cause carnage. (See also, motorcyclists filtering too quickly relative to other traffic.)
sharkbait
Free MemberAbsolutely agree – so they are reducing the speed limit so cars have to decelerate and accelerate more to/from 55/60??
Yep, and if the only speed changes you ever do were from 60 to 20 and back again that'd make a tiny difference, but that's not how it works. You do way more speed changes in towns so the "slow down from 60 and speed back up" at the ends have less effect than everything that happens between.
On average obviously, there'll be individual cases where you go from 60 to 20 and never slow down or speed up til you leave. But there'll be far more cases where you do a bunch of speed changes between, so that'll more than even out
What Cookee says !
When it snowed and the road was a solid jam it only took 2hrs 30mins to walk 7 miles to work. I quite enjoyed it.
If you did 20 on an NSL dual carriageway you’d potentially cause carnage
Only if people weren't paying attention 😁
That is familiar, My missus has pretty much the same understanding of how Cars travel through time and space, the mega-disruptive roadworks in Reading this last couple of weeks have helped to adjust her understanding a bit I think…
Makes a change from disruptive cycling infrastructure putting people off riding 😂
How many time have you had someone over take you and speed away only to catch them up at the next pinch point.
Yesterday.
Driving up the road into Burnley, it's built-up for a while then there's a two-lane dual carriageway section. It's 30mph throughout. I was doing 30, there's another car behind me so close that you could probably have got a cheese slice between us. As the road widened he booted it past me and roared off with his head on fire.
Caught him up at the next lights. Where he was turning right. So when the lights changed I just pootled past him in the left lane. I glanced across to see if he might appreciate a cheery wave, but he was making it Very Obvious that he hadn't seen me.
And sure, that's an anecdotal pool of "one" with a side order of confirmation bias. There's every possibility he'd have got there ahead of the lights cycle instead and I'd never have seen him again. I'd probably have done the same if I was following someone doing 20mph with an "it's a limit not a target" bumper sticker. But it just seems so pointless for such a short stretch of road.
Only if people weren’t paying attention 😁
Whilst I agree completely, that will likely be of little comfort when you get out of hospital.
Whilst I agree completely, that will likely be of little comfort when you get out of hospital.
True, but it's not going to stop me cycling on nsl dial carriageways.
