20mph speed limit, in reality for most people instead of definitely not cycling it’ll become probably not.
A key reason for people not cycling is traffic being scary. Alternative routes don't necessarily help that much because motorists don't necessarily know they are there.
However 20mph traffic is much less scary than 30mph traffic, so that may well help. And some people might think 'this is so slow I may as well cycle'
You do need to stick to the 50 limits with all of the ANPR cameras along the routes where they have implemented the limits due to pollution.
What Motorway is this linking North to South?
I'm suggesting in investing in better rail transport not more roads.
An example Aberyswyth - Cardiff on a weekday train can be somewhere between 4 and 6 hours, in a car about 3 hours, so what are people going to use? Noting that route will go along the M4 where they have got 50mph pollution limits in place, due to the traffic volumes. I'm saying there's no coherent transport strategy in place beyond connecting the Valleys to Cardiff.
And some people might think ‘this is so slow I may as well cycle’
I'd like to think so but sadly I don't think this will be true. I'm not anticipating any significant increase in Welsh cycling, it'll be the same people but hopefully in a safer environment. Not sure on that even. I'm seeing loads more dangerous overtaking (cars passing other cars) in existing 20mph zones than I ever did with a 30mph limit
I’m suggesting in investing in better rail transport not more roads.
So you want to put a railway line through mid Wales instead?
I’m saying there’s no coherent transport strategy in place beyond connecting the Valleys to Cardiff.
Well there's a North Wales strategy as well I think. But the problem is that linking North to South Wales is extremely difficult and sadly (or not) not useful to that many people, in reality.
There's routes that were closed in the 60's that could be looked at one being Aberyswyth to Camerthen, they've estimated at about £800million to re-open so that's been given a big nope, even thou they are prepared to spend more than that on the SW Metro upgrade. It would also add resiliency into the routes North/South as well as allowing more freight from the ports on the coast.
I'm saying there's a big bias to slowing things down to try and hit pollution targets, without addressing the root causes of the congestion/pollution i.e get cars off the roads. Just putting more coaches/trains back on routes that can already cope with the extra volumes, would get cars off the roads.
May have been doing a steady 30 mph with a tail wind between Rhyl and Prestatyn this afternoon. Certainly beat a few cars.
And should I be bombing down hills at 35mph in a 20 limit anyway? Limits do apply to cyclists.
How, exactly, do you know how fast you’re going on a bike? Yes, I know you can get those little speedo/milometer gizmos, I had one once, which is how I knew I was doing 35mph down my road when I overtook a Fiesta with a bunch of youngsters in, to their surprise judging by their expressions as I went past, and I’ve managed 42mph on a main road, but both were downhill, on a bike with a triple front chainset.
Without such a device, and very few people use them, it’s impossible to know how fast you’re going. I’ve followed cars down a steep hill, and had to feather the brakes to stop from running into the back, because overtaking wasn’t a safe option, but I was freewheeling on a singlespeed and I’ve no idea how fast I was going, I do know I’ve gone faster down the same hill without cars in front, but I couldn’t hazard a guess as to how fast.
How, exactly, do you know how fast you’re going on a bike?
With a Garmin, or any other GPS head unit.
As these aren't required, and bicycles aren't engine powered, it's a moot point about speed limits. It's more relevant to talk about 'wanton or furious driving' applying.
The 20mph speed limits might actually be detrimental to them getting to somewhere to walk , providng another excuse to not go!
This isn't about encouraging people to drive somewhere, it's the opposite. It's stopping them being trapped in their house/village/street as having a car is viewed the only safe way to get arround.
If the goal is public health then driving somewhere for a walk on a Sunday is a between a drop in the ocean and a big step backwards. What makes the difference is all the cumulative 10-15min at a time walking to the shops, school, work, sports center, pub etc rather than driving to the Spar for milk.
There’s routes that were closed in the 60’s that could be looked at one being Aberyswyth to Camerthen, they’ve estimated at about £800million to re-open so that’s been given a big nope, even thou they are prepared to spend more than that on the SW Metro upgrade.
Right. 16,000 people live in Aberystwyth, 13,000 in Carmarthen. And very few in between. The population of South-East Wales is about 1.5 million, nearly half that of the whole country.
I'm massively in favour of heavily subsidised rail travel, I really am - but most people don't agree with me sadly. People would absolutely lose their shit if the WG spent nearly a billion connecting two small towns whilst the people of SE Wales struggle on shitty old trains or are crammed onto dense congested roads. Personally, I would dearly love to see a properly connected rail network in Wales, but we're going to have to wait quite some time.
The 20mph speed limits might actually be detrimental to them getting to somewhere to walk , providng another excuse to not go!
Rubbish. "Oh it's a lovely day, I really fancy a walk in the park, but it takes 2 mins longer to get there than it used to, so I'll stay home". Honestly don't be ridiculous.
A lot of the land is open access meaning that you can walk anywhere but not, interestly, cycle. And there are precious few bridleways and many of those aren’t really passable.
Seriously? You talking about South East Wales, right? The Valleys? There are a lot of problems down here but land access is definitely not one of them! There are loads of bridleways, loads of forest, and absolutely no-one at all cares if you ride across the mountains on the trackways. It's an absolutely brilliant place to live as an MTBer!
@molgrips "Limits do apply to cyclists"
No, they don't, for the simple reason that bicycles are not legally required to carry a calibrated and sealed speedometer, so a cyclist cannot be expected to know how fast they're travelling. Therefore the law cannot require them to obey speed limits.
Could also be written as the WG spent nearly a billion connecting some small towns whilst the people of N Wales struggle on shitty even older trains or are crammed onto even more congested roads.
Earlier today I spent some time ready the Senedd strategy on EV and charging points, 34 pages of what is in place now and what's needed in 2030 etc. and they strategy to achieve it wishful thinking and a bit more of the stick, no incentives.
Their transport strategy can be summed up as delivering bread n circuses to the plebs that surround them (and vote for them) while the rest of the country they can just sweat as much as they can with minimal investment.
But despite the rants about them, I still agree with the 20mph limit coming into place.
Earlier today I spent some time ready the Senedd strategy on EV and charging points, 34 pages of what is in place now and what’s needed in 2030 etc. and they strategy to achieve it wishful thinking and a bit more of the stick, no incentives.
Sorry what? What stick? Lots of charging points going in all over the place. The number of connectors on the A470 up to Cardiff has now more than doubled since I went up there in spring. Ok so it was from a very low base, but it's happening. I'm not sure where the 'stick' is in this scenario mind.
Could also be written as the WG spent nearly a billion connecting some small towns whilst the people of N Wales struggle on shitty even older trains or are crammed onto even more congested roads.
Not really. When money is limited, the transport investment goes where the people are. That said, there is a plan for North East Wales, some of which is under construction now apparently.
No, they don’t, for the simple reason that bicycles are not legally required to carry a calibrated and sealed speedometer
Oh.. yeah.. good point 🙂
They have predicted that by 2030 there need to be somewhere between 55,000 and 6o,ooo ish chargers of various types in Wales.
"Successful
action will rely on public and
private sector collaboration.
Mechanisms to facilitate this
collaborative delivery model will
be set out in the action plan."
"Welsh Government will enable
the above through integrated
planning for energy and transport
(including the Low Carbon Delivery
Plan, and on-going Regional
Energy Planning), and improved
regulatory standards (including
amendments to building codes
regulations). The creation of a
national quality standard for
charging that reflects both quality
and sustainable outcomes could be
a reliable mechanism to drive an
improvement in industry standards."
Regulatory standards, planning, standard = stick, where's the incentives ? At most its this at present
"Welsh Government can create
favourable conditions for
economic and employment
opportunities to be captured in
Wales. The creation of a national
procurement framework could
support the above outcomes
through encouraging solutions that
deliver the most advantageous
outcomes for Wales. "
Regulatory standards, planning, standard = stick, where’s the incentives ? At most its this at present
The incentive is 80p per kWh surely? This is between them and the companies, doesn't really concern you does it? All you want, as a driver, is more charge points.
Oh yes there's rail investment in NE Wales, I'll take their main bullet points from their strategy
unlocking Chester station capacity to allow additional
services through to the North Wales coast
Yes this is going ahead, but see my earlier comment about Avanti cutting back over summer and the TfW trains being rammed
increased capacity to allow more services on the North
Wales Mainline
Pointless if the main operator turns around and says that they are running a reduced service over summer.
enhancements on Borderlands line to enable improved
regional connectivity and direct services into Liverpool
improved connectivity at the Shotton interchange between
the North Wales mainline and the Borderlands line to
provide enhanced rail services in support of our North
Wales Metro ambitions.
Aka the rolling stock that get knicked to fill other gaps elsewhere on TfW, and the new well refurbished TfL trains struggle with pollen in their engine filters, fires in older trains, resulting in a service that struggles to have an hourly train, often replaced by a bus service that due to the geography can mean hours added to the travel time.
Spring this year
Last month, the Wrexham Bidston Rail User Association (WBRUA) expressed significant concerns regarding the management and operation of the Wrexham-Bidston line by TfW and urged the Welsh Government to initiate an independent review.
The WBRUA held a committee meeting on 24th March and unanimously agreed that TfW is incapable of delivering an acceptable service on the line.
They believe Merseyrail would be better placed to provide a reliable service than TfW, which is “both South Wales based and focussed.”
There's only so much money. Blame Westminster for that.
… despite the fact crap public transport is holding the economy back and they’re so desperate to be seen as pro-growth.
“Limits do apply to cyclists”
No, they don’t, for the simple reason that bicycles are not legally required to carry a calibrated and sealed speedometer, so a cyclist cannot be expected to know how fast they’re travelling. Therefore the law cannot require them to obey speed limits.
Aged 16,bombing it down a hill into town to get to my job on time (IKEA, Lakeside) I got stopped by a copper with a speed gun. He told me I hit 39mph and if I wanted to give it another go to see if I could go over 40mph. As I was already late for work I declined.
Therefore the law cannot require them to obey speed limits.
Your right no specific speed limits apply to cyclists, but you can be charged with dangerous cycling and excessive speed for a given situation can play a part in that.
Totally agree with you both on that, shame that the railways have been a licence to print money for their cronies.
Back on subject 20mph is going to be a godsend around here, just hope there's some enforcement on it for a while. I'll take my EV thoughts over to the on-topic for those.
oldenough
Free MemberSorry I’m cynical about asking people about what would make them cycle more. 20mph speed limit, in reality for most people instead of definitely not cycling it’ll become probably not.
Sure, but for the probably nots it can become maybe nots and the maybe nots can become maybes. It's not about the definitely nots.
Seriously? You talking about South East Wales, right? The Valleys? There are a lot of problems down here but land access is definitely not one of them! There are loads of bridleways, loads of forest, and absolutely no-one at all cares if you ride across the mountains on the trackways. It’s an absolutely brilliant place to live as an MTBer!
Go look at an OS map - check out the number of areas with an orangey-brown border, both pale green and yellow shaded.
These are open access lands, and "One fifth of Wales is mapped as ‘access land’ where the public have a right of access on foot.", and not for cycling.
Then go and look for the number of marked bridleways, it is not very many. There might be many tracks you go down that look like bridleways, but if they are you are lucky.
I've also noticed that many of the OS footpaths don't seem to map that well to reality - I end up using the satellite view mostly when out walking.
Remember this campaign - https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/trails-wales-what-happens-now
It didn't happen, which sort of conflicts with Wales desire to increase tourism.
So how was everyone's commute this morning?
I’m still waiting to see some independent evidence to support the claims of 20mph speed limits. As far as I can tell they are just a money making scheme. If the powers that be were interested in safety then widen footpaths. Stop cars parking on footpaths so pedestrians can use them as intended. The problem is that there is no roi on there so we will just make vehicles go slower and call it done
So how was everyone’s commute this morning?
Much the same I suspect as most will be ignoring the new speed limit (pure guess).
I see Mr Drakeford is saying that the lower limit is going to increase the average trip by 1 minute - really? I'm sure a lot of trips are much longer than 3 minutes.
Nice to see that they have actually admitted that exhaust emission's/particulates are going to rise because of this - apparently this will not change until everyone is driving an electric vehicle!
Hmm.
I don't see an issue with in some places, but doing it blanket for all roads is just daft and justifies the 'its just a moneymaking thing' outlook. There's plenty round my way that should stay at 30, but haven't, so they'll just chuck speed vans everywhere to rinse people. Wide roads with set back houses on one side and plenty of passing space for cars, buses and bikes and thye're setting it down to 20. These are arterial roads that are used every day by people trying to get from A>B. 20 in those cramped streets in the valleys - perfect. Makes sense. Uneforceable, because you can't get a speed van anywhere because everyones triple parked, but a nice idea.
And that's the core of it - if your nice idea to improve safety in residential areas isn't actually workable in practice and serves only to generate speeding fines and make people irate, then it's not a good idea. It's a cynical excercise that you're doing for PR that doesn't actually impact those areas where it would be most effective.
@chrismac - well, it's a World Health Organisation campaign to have 30km/h/20mph limits where there are people because it reduces deaths so much. They don't tend to just fart out advice on a whim.
This document has some facts and figures-
"The first widespread evaluation of 20mph ( miles per hour) zones in the UK was carried out by TRL in 1996xi. It found that injury accidents were reduced by 60%, and child injury accidents were reduced by 67%. In the 20mph zones in Hull, there was a decrease in total accidents of 56% and in fatal and serious injuries of 90%. The biggest reductions were pedestrian casualties, which fell by 54%, child casualties which dropped by 54% and child pedestrian casualties fell by 74%."
TRL is the Transport Research Laboratory, and they're not there to prove a point either way, just interpret the data they gather.
I see Mr Drakeford is saying that the lower limit is going to increase the average trip by 1 minute – really? I’m sure a lot of trips are much longer than 3 minutes.
However, in the urban environment average speeds are lower than 30 no matter what the limit says. Plus remember this is only *some* roads - there are still 30/40/50/60 limits on many roads.
My commute if I drive is 7 miles. It has a couple of 20 zones - my house out of the town I live onto A9 and through the main street of the next town. I cannot say I miss it being 30, or indeed the extra few seconds as I pass by the primary, the secondary and the main route to the university in a morning so full of pedal and walking commuters.
I’m still waiting to see some independent evidence to support the claims of 20mph speed limits. As far as I can tell they are just a money making scheme. If the powers that be were interested in safety then widen footpaths. Stop cars parking on footpaths so pedestrians can use them as intended. The problem is that there is no roi on there so we will just make vehicles go slower and call it done
Come up to Scotland for a few days. I can show you how good they are, how even though many cars are faster than 20mph, they are now significantly slower than when they all ignored the 30mph limits. I can show you the average commute and driving around Stirling and area. It. Just. Works.
No-one gives it any thought any more as it has been here a couple of years now.
And I see police enforcing it maybe twice or three times a year - and I understand that they warn as many as they actually prosecute (according to a riding buddy who was Police Scotland's most senior traffic officer up until retirement in December)
I am interested @chrismac- how much longer is your commute, and how much of an inconvenience is that for you in the overall scheme of things?
....... and what about the increased emissions (and therefore particulates I would imagine)?
I think Winston Churchill put it best
"Never before in the field of transport, have so many people lost their minds, over so small a change"
My favourite claim by the antis, was that improved road safety is a bad thing because it will decrease the number of organ donors. If those are the straws you are grasping you don't have much of an argument.
I don't really get it, just drive a bit slower, its really not hard.
Nice to see that they have actually admitted that exhaust emission’s/particulates are going to rise because of this – apparently this will not change until everyone is driving an electric vehicle!
The alternative research says that most emissions are produced in accelaration (CO2, soot, NOx) and deceleration (brake dust and tyre dust), far more than during constant running at either 20 or 30. Limiting the acccelerations reduces emissions by more than marginal efficency increases when up to the speed limit. The shorter the gaps between junctions the more fuel is saved and the more emissions are reduced by the lower limit. The traffic also flows better which reduces idling time and changes of speed due to congestion.
……. and what about the increased emissions (and therefore particulates I would imagine)?
They are reduced at slower traffic speeds - emissions go up disproportionately when you accelerate up to to speed. Lower that top speed and you do not accelerate as much and traffic flows more smoothly, so further reducing acceleration time.
My favourite claim by the antis, was that improved road safety is a bad thing because it will decrease the number of organ donors. If those are the straws you are grasping you don’t have much of an argument.
Really? We have people arguing to drive faster so they can create more organ donors by a killing a few more?
20 is being rolled out across my city, southampton. I had to leave the local nextdoor because of the level of ****tery about it, the excuses being rolled out are absolutley ridiculous. I live on one of the main routes into town, its residential, has a large park next to it, 3 schools, 1 colleague and 2 pubs. Several crossings, 2 roundabouts and a couple of sets of traffic lights - cycle lane was added in lockdown which makes it quite tight in places. It absolutley should be a 20, and tbh during peak times you would be lucky to do much more on average anyway. But people want to accelerate as fast as they can to 30+ ready to brake at the next junction or crossing. I just don't get it. The level of frothing you would think some is removing their right to use a car completely
The 20 signs have been defaced, and I've seen 2 cars (one a learner) being overtaken in the 20 zone already. Very few are abiding by the 20, that said, very few were abiding by the 30 before, so I would say the average 'top' speed if that makes sense is getting slower. I hope it will be something that improves as people get over themselves.
And I really don't mind if the police make some revenue out of it. If you can't stick to a speed limit, you deserve to be fined.
The alternative research says that most emissions are produced in accelaration (CO2, soot, NOx) and deceleration (brake dust and tyre dust), far more than during constant running at either 20 or 30. Limiting the acccelerations reduces emissions by more than marginal efficency increases when up to the speed limit. The shorter the gaps between junctions the more fuel is saved and the more emissions are reduced by the lower limit. The traffic also flows better which reduces idling time and changes of speed due to congestion.
I've read much the same. Less time spent accelerating means less emissions, this cancels out the increased emissions from driving at a lower speed.
Particle emissions are brakes and tyres, lower braking efforts on the brake pads and less time accelerating and braking with the tyres would mean lower particle emissions.
Particle emissions are brakes and tyres
I meant diesel particulates... sorry.
The alternative research says that most emissions are produced in accelaration (CO2, soot, NOx) and deceleration
Absolutely agree - so they are reducing the speed limit so cars have to decelerate and accelerate more to/from 55/60??
The shorter the gaps between junctions the more fuel is saved and the more emissions are reduced by the lower limit.
Does this make sense? The shorter the gap between junctions means more acceleration/deceleration doesn't it?
I have no skin in this game - I do have a house in Wales but I don't use the car much there and that is mostly one short trip through a village that I always go through at 20 anyway (because the road is only wide enough for one car so stops are frequent).
But my takeaway from this trip is that my car changes down a gear to travel at this speed and the rpm are higher than they are when at 30mph.
I'm sure the pedestrian deaths figures will be scrutinised in the coming years.
I think in 20 years nobody will care and it'll be a bit nuts to think about people driving around residential neighbourhoods at 30mph.
I don't really understand why it seems to wind people up so much. There's way more important things to think about.
I have to say its confusing round my way (Gower)...the council hadn't got round to changing any signs as of yesterday, so theoretically, all 30s are now 20. Except I know of 3 local roads which are being left at 30....how is anyone supposed to know? I guess it would be hard to prosecute someone until the signage is done....maybe?
It does make sense unless you are hard of thinking or hard of reading, Sharkbait. 😉 Try reading again with your thinking cap on and read the posts from rich and Matt which make the same points I am.
To answer your second point the distance between junctions is as it is, not a thing that can be changed like the speed limit. If you have two traffic lights at 300m apart the saving in fuel/emissions from a lower speed limit will be greater than if there are 500m between the junctions. If the junctions are several miles apart then the savings from more efficient running at higher speed might eventually overcome the high emission during acceleration and braking - unlikely on a typical urban journey. In a typical urban environment with frequent junctions and changes in speed where 20 limits are applied the lower speed saves fuel and lowers emissions by reducing the highly polluting acceleratin and deceleration phases.
Signs all changed in N Wales yesterday - noticed whilst out on the bike that all the '3's were removeable. Drove about 60 miles in and out of the zones yesterday. Certainly feels very slow, but there are lots of national speed limit to 20 mph sections which probably needs speeds dropping to 40 or 50 else where. Didn't get chance to get out on the bike on Sunday, so we'll see - I can see myself getting held up a lot, especially when out on the road bikes or CX bike.
But my takeaway from this trip is that my car changes down a gear to travel at this speed and the rpm are higher than they are when at 30mph.
And?
Do you think emissions are linked to engine rpm or something?
Lower speed/ratio and higher rpm will (very very very slightly) increase pumping and frictional losses and significantly reduce total load. Because you'll use a lot less fuel. (And if whoever designed your engine knows what the score is, you'll probably be burning it more cleanly with slightly higher rpm.)
I’m still waiting to see some independent evidence to support the claims of 20mph speed limits.
You shouldn't *really* need to look that hard, seeing as 30kph limits have been rolled out all over Europe over the last couple of decades. You might need to learn half a dozen foreign languages though.
I see Mr Drakeford is saying that the lower limit is going to increase the average trip by 1 minute – really? I’m sure a lot of trips are much longer than 3 minutes.
Your average speed won't drop by 50%. I'll give you an example. To town from my house is 5.2 miles and is showing now as 16 mins on Google. The first bit is residential streets with parked cars so clearly 30mph is never reached. Then there's a little bit of 40mph then a long dual carriageway bit of 50. The last 1.9 miles was 30, and is now 20. Call it 2 miles - that would have taken 4 mins at a constant 30mph, but would now take 6 mins. So a 2 min gain. However last night at 8pm Google was showing 10 mins for that section - now 8 mins. So how is it possible that a previously 4 min trip is taking 8 or 10 mins? Because you spend most of your time on that bit of road waiting at lights or roundabouts. That will still be the case.
It's not going to change most urban journeys.
There’s plenty round my way that should stay at 30, but haven’t, so they’ll just chuck speed vans everywhere to rinse people
Then contact your local council to get them to change it to a 30. They are the ones who have the power to change it. Once again, the WG is ONLY CHANGING THE DEFAULT LIMIT, not all the limits.
serves only to generate speeding fines
I'm trying to stay calm here but FOR ****'S SAKE! The only person responsible for getting a speeding fine is the driver! End of debate! We have always had speed limits, you've always been obliged to stick to them. If you can't drive properly this is absolutely 100% not the WG's fault!
I live in 20 limit neighbourhood, There's lots of housing and four schools within a 1 mile radius, it's been 20 for about the last 5 years.
The sky hasn't fallen, the council even enforced the no-parking on verges rule too for a bit. There's 3 speed cameras in the area, none of which I believe have actually been dialled down to 20, but do most drivers really want to test that theory? I don't know anyone locally who's managed to get a ticket from the speed cameras.
(Anecdotally) I have observed the following:
The standard sort of pricks still boot it through the area, but it seems that where they were comfortable pushing 40 in a 30 they now tend to aim for 30 in a 20 somehow it's dampened their instincts a bit.
Driving through the estate seems to be a more relaxed affair, there's still too many parked cars in several places, kids randomly lurch out on e-scooters etc, but everyone has that bit more time to react and negotiate things, and angry interactions seem to be less frequent (IMO/IME). I feel pretty relaxed driving the last mile to/from my home.
There actually seem to be fewer people using it as a rat-run, I think those 20 signs must be like kryptonite to 'progress makers' who would previously have caused frequent long queues at a couple of busy junctions, now they stay on the 30 limit road (still in a queue full of similarly progress focussed dickheads), don't tell them but they'd probably now save time cutting through our neighbourhood.
My journey times and fuel consumption appear pretty much unchanged (not that I've really studied and plotted them). the single mile I have to drive observing a 20 limit is probably covered at about the same average speed as it ever was with the typical stops and starts, it's a busy populated area you can't drive all the way through it at the posted limit.
Cycling in the area doesn't feel much different, but the really aggressive drivers (must pass at all costs, leaning on the horn) are fewer and further between.
Overall if they were to widen the 20 limit to cover the adjacent housing/busier areas, it would maybe add another mile of 20 limit travel to my commute and again I can't see it hugely impacting my local travel either by car or bicycle.
I think we'll just have to wait and see how the Welsh implementation of 20 limits goes, no doubt there will be studies galore from it, some with and others without bias. But I find it telling that nobody really seems to be studying or reporting on areas like the one I live in to understand potential impacts/benefits. Do people maybe not really want to hear the answers?
