[Closed] 2019 General Election

Beth Rigby pretty much nails it unfortunately: https://news.sky.com/story/general-election-the-tory-manifesto-is-a-lightweight-document-of-brexit-rhetoric-11869640

All Boris has to do is not shag anything and keep the headbangers like JRM away from any microphones or twitter.

In fact I suspect he could get away with more shagging stories - 'good ol' Boris - what a lad'.

James “Cleverly” is proof that God has a weird sense of humour.

and he's MP for.........Braintree!

TJ - you'll be back soon: you can't help yourself.
If you're not on here, who else will you disagree with?

I can have an argument in an empty room. I'll be fine. 😉

However getting exasperated leads me to typing things I should not given I will always remain on a shoogly peg on here.

I will be back but dipping in and out helps my sanity and saves the mods trouble!

robdixon

Member

Even this is bobbins though. The cost of nationalising the water industry alone is estimated at £160b

When estimated by the water industry, sure.

Here's the bit that is carefully ignored. Water like most other nationalised industries is so profitable and therefore valuable because it gets tons of public funding, because it's weakly regulated, because piss-poor standards are tolerated, and because regulatory breaches are routinely fined at a rate lower than the cost of not breaking the regulations. Cost is nationalised, profits are privatised, failure is rewarded. Any industry would be worth a fortune in such an environment

It wouldn't take a hostile environment to massively reduce the exaggerated value of these industries, simply a reasonable one. Tie funding to performance, enforce the rules that exist, upgrade the penalty structure so that doing it wrong is at least as expensive as doing it right. You know, like we'd already do if it wasn't all mad.

Of course an actual hostile environment would be easy to arrange too, if they just learn from the past masters...

dannyh

Member

They don’t want to fix it, though. They want to run it down to the point where they can start to sell bits of it off to their mates. Total conflict of interest.

The exact opposite works for nationalization. We've seen so many cases in the past where governments have made life difficult for industries and sectors, all the tools are tried, tested and ready. Just turn them around.

Cleverley is an interesting example of whatever the exact opposite of nominative determinism is.

... Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses.

This election is the worse I can ever remember. Whether people like it or not, Brexit is the main issue. The opposition parties are all promising to add even longer uncertainty to it by having further votes on it, when the country has suffered far longer than it should have already.
Only the Torys promise to get it done and move on as a priority.

Where as really Brexit should have been done by now, and the other important things of concern in this country should be getting addressed: housing; education; NHS, and social care, etc.

I have heard lots of people I know say that they wont be giving their vote to any of them because they are all useless, but that is not going to help either.

Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for the current major parties in the UK, and we will soon get someone with vision and integrity to get behind ... I guess 1930s Germany were saying the same!

Only the Torys promise to get it done and move on as a priority.

Which is impossible to deliver.

This election country is the worse I can ever remember.

fify

Only the Torys promise to get it done and move on as a priority.

That's nice coming from the people who created the mess in the first place.

Only the Torys promise to get it done and move on as a priority.

Where as really Brexit should have been done by now, and the other important things of concern in this country should be getting addressed: housing; education; NHS, and social care, etc.

The issue is that while the Tories will "get it done", or at least claim they have they will then not move on to sort out the things that are actually important because they don't care about them, as proved by the last 9 years and all their terms before that.

Saying all parties are useless because Brexit has taken 3.5 years and counting is them underestimating the complexities of it and misunderstanding that that the parties are ensuring that crap doesn't happen (with an impact on those who are now calling the parties useless)

Take profit out of the equation and it’s obvious to anyone not blinded by greed that utilities, education, transport should be managed for the good of society.

That would be great. But the huge cost to buy them would be better spent elsewhere. If improvements and re-investment are required the govt should make the companies do it; they are supposed to be in charge.

If anything should be nationalised it's the big 4 accounting/consulting co.s, They are evil. They are all sucking at the teat of public money, all signing each others expenses, all scratching each others backs, and all getting paid huge amounts with no real oversight.

And no real value.

🤔

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/status/1198892094775009280?s=19

Only the Torys promise to get it done and move on as a priority.

@mooman It's amazing that after watching the last 4 years of paralysis as we tried & failed to negotiate the easy bit- the withdrawal agreement.

That people are still so clueless to think think that the far more complex Future Relationship will magically be easier, when Johnson has repeatedly stated that he wants to diverge much further from EU rules, ensuring that talks will be much, much more divisive & damaging.

Where as really Brexit should have been done by now, and the other important things of concern in this country should be getting addressed: housing; education; NHS, and social care, etc.

It's taken 40 years to integrate into the EU, are you so naive that you think we could just reverse all of that with a few votes in the commons & a commemorative 50p coin?

mooman

Only the Torys promise to get it done and move on as a priority.

ransos

Which is impossible to deliver.

I'm staggered that people actually still believe this promise and what they think "get Brexit done" means.

Any trade talks will ultimately collapse due to the inherent contradiction at the heart of it

The ERG headbangers driving this whole thing want to diverge from the fundamentals of the EU project. They want to deregulate our economy, tear up workers rights, re-write environmental standards and change tax laws etc. This goes against the very principles of the single market.

The EU will never agree to this. Why would they?

When the real negotiations start, things will get very real, very quickly

The Brexit people were promised was always a right-wing neoliberal fantasy. Any serious pursuit of it would have a catastrophic impact on our economy

If improvements and re-investment are required the govt should make the companies do it;

And the companies hold out the hand to govt pleading poverty whilst paying their shareholders a fat dividend. You don't see any conflict in that? Here's an idea, if the govt regulated so that utility companies weren't allowed to pay a dividend and capped executive pay until they didn't need public subsidies whilst at the same time meeting targets for invsting in infrastructure then nationalisation might not be necessary. If privatisation worked that's what they would do, but they don't because it's a broken model.

I find it amazing anyone still thinks we'll be better off post-Brexit. They have clearly not been paying attention.

Where as really Brexit should have been done by now

Look, the only people who told you Brexit could be done with quickly in 2016 are the people telling you now it can still be done with quickly. Have you not learned your lesson?! If you want Brexit, fair enough, but please have the intelligence to realise it’s a decade long project. You’ve had three additional years to educate yourself about what is really involved, don’t accept three word propaganda from Cummings and Johnson again… look into it.

Excellent thread by the scarily accurate at predicting political future (check out his brexit flow charts) Jon Worth

https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1198877298180669440

Johnson's Brexit is just the beginning of a very long painful process

I find it amazing anyone still thinks we’ll be better off post-Brexit. They have clearly not been paying attention.

It's not a question about being better off, it's about being in charge. They'd rather be listened to and worse off than ignored and better off. What amazes me is that they can have both by voting labour and so far the great british public appear not to want that. Until people realise they're living in a plutocracy and not a democracy then very little will change.

Watched this yesterday on the deeper problems, it explains a lot, everyone should watch it.

What amazes me is that they can have both by voting labour and so far the great british public appear not to want that.

The Brexit people were promised was always a right-wing neoliberal fantasy.

If it's so right wing, why don't labour make a stand against it? A clear stand to stop article 50?

Is it because, as was pointed out 30 pages ago, that the biggest Brexit areas are traditionally Labour supporting?

How does that fit with the theory?

If you want Brexit, fair enough, but please have the intelligence to realise it’s a decade long project.

Jezza says he'll get a deal in 3 months.

Jezza says he’ll get a deal in 3 months.

A withdrawal deal, not a trade deal. You know that full well though so stop being a ****. Or maybe you don't? If not then go away and inform yourself better before spouting rubbish on an internet forum as if they're facts.

Jezza says he’ll get a deal in 3 months.

He says he’ll get to the Labour version of where Boris is now in three months. That may be slightly optimistic, but not ridiculous, seeing as the Labour position is much more closely aligned in regard to a customs union etc. Much less painful all round. Following such an agreement, a trade deal should be simpler too.

Jezza says he’ll get a deal in 3 months.

I’m not suggesting @mooman should listen to Corbyn, I’m suggesting he looks into what Brexit entails and how long it will take before it is “done” and we don’t have to deal with it anymore.

Jezza says he’ll get a deal in 3 months.

Johnson got one in less (well May's deal &y conceding to the EU on the backstop)

thats just the WA he's talking about though

and as for actually negotiating a Labour Norway deal & the much closer alignment that comes with it will be far less rancorous & damaging than & much much quicker than Johnsons planned one

If it’s so right wing, why don’t labour make a stand against it? A clear stand to stop article 50?

The people presently 'leading' the labour party are the same sort of deluded ideologically driven fantasists as the ERG. They have also spent their entire political careers being fundamentally opposed to the very principles of the EU.

They have radically different agendas, but both hinge on being outside the EU

You know that full well though so stop being a ****

You know when you've hit a nerve with a Labour supporter...

And you kind of ignored the other point in my post with your frothing...The issue I have is that is what people will hear from Labour. 3 months and we are done; one way or another. It's cobblers, just like Boris's nonsense. But it's held up as a statesmanlike way to navigate the brexit issue.

It isn't

Thank you binners; much more sensible

You know when you’ve hit a nerve with a Labour supporter…

so were you lying or confused about not knowing the difference from the WA of FR?

and your other point also misunderstands the ref vote

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/07/north-poor-brexit-myths

the TOP 5 leave voting seats are all Tory

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028

A withdrawal deal, not a trade deal. You know that full well though so stop being a ****. Or maybe you don’t?

I’m sure Corbyn has made that distinction clear when telling the public what he intends to do about Brexit, yes?

When he says “get it sorted” at every opportunity, he’s not implying it can all be done within a short timescale, is he?

kimbers - Crossed post while I was editing; see above

Boomerlives - Thank you binners; much more sensible

Well. This should tell you something Binners... 😂

(Although I notice that you have toned it down a tad recently, to be fair...)

And you kind of ignored the other point

When you deliberately misrepresent (ie lie about) simple facts then weirdly I don't feel the need to engage with anything you say. If you want people to engage in a discussion, basic honesty would seem like a good starting point.

And right on cue, as a reminder from a previous era when our politics wasn't so totally unhinged, Tony Blair states the bleeding obvious

Tony Blair says both the Tories and Labour are 'peddling fantasies'

I don’t feel the need to engage with anything you say

But you did...how odd

And right on cue

I've been waiting for Blair to do his bit to prevent a labour win. And he says he wants to stop brexit? He can't help himself can he? Always wants to be the centre of attention. He's like the labour version of Jacob Rees Mogg, and should follow his example by disappearing.

Where as really Brexit should have been done by now...

Really? I think the whole idea should have been ditched by now.

Hello everyone. I'm not too keen on getting caught up in the Labour/Brexit argument, but I have a question so here goes:

I like the idea of "negotiate a softer brexit, confirm with another referendum". I'm just concerned that 3 months of negotiation seems a bit tight, given the first WA took 2 years. Is there a good reason why 3 months could be realistic?

As Dazh points out (but Corbyn does not) it is just the Withdrawal Agreement, not “negotiating a softer Brexit”. There will not be a fully formed new relationship on the referendum ballot form, just a new WA with a different political declaration. Can probably be done in a month. If we vote to Leave, then once we are in the transition period there’s still all the details of a new relationship to hammer out. And Labour are still talking about a new Customs Union where the UK has as say in all EU trade deals, as a non-member… which given our size will be very difficult to nail down with the EU. And Labour are still talking about leaving the Single Market, but staying aligned to it… which, again, involves far more to be nailed down legally and practically than the nice little glib statement suggests. All this will take time, but, to be fair, probably more straightforward than what Johnson&friends have in mind as they try and triangulate EU:UK:USA relationships with an aggressive USA administration and EU countries who will have no trust in us.

I’ve been waiting for Blair to do his bit to prevent a labour win. And he says he wants to stop brexit? He can’t help himself can he?

Instead of playing the man - why don’t you address what he has to say?

🙄

Thanks @kelvin.

Am I right in thinking that Labour's proposed WA means that the NI/Eire border becomes a less complex issue as well?

<Yes @stevious it would remove a lot of the problems on ni/eireland border, not to say that the DUP will be pleased, but they hate Johnson's deal too.

Labours position is moving closer to a Norway deal (see FOM vote at conference)

It's Johnson's desire to de-align that makes his deal far more lengthy to negotiate than Labours close alignment model

Yes. Brexiteers will chuck all their toys out of thepram saying its Brexit in name only which is another plus.