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I’ll bet my balls the proportion of people living in Bolton on 80k a year is pretty negligible.
All the more reason to tax them more then.
Oh, I thought it was the housing density and under supply!
One room rental in a shared house in Zone 2 rental is £850 per month as I was told recently.
All the more reason to tax them more then.
🤔
TJ also it's really because of constrained supply of property. Which are good reasons for decentralisation by investing in the rest of the UK and by increasing supply by building housing - including council housing
Evidence that wages drove it?
What do you think people started moving there for in huge numbers in the first place?
rayban it's both.
Is anybody else watching the leaders QT?
Is anybody else watching the leaders QT?
Yes, but there is nothing new apart from letting the audience let off steam ...
What do you think people started moving there for in huge numbers in the first place?
They haven't moved there in large numbers, they actually moved out - London has simply been recovering it's lost population since because it's a large center of employment. If house prices were simply about wages, then the prices would be in proportion to the increase in local wages, they aren't - there are clear supply pressures on the prices.
The population density has not recovered to pre-1939, houses had either been destroyed by the war, slum clearances, became decrepit or due to HMO regulations cannot fit as many people in - since then not enough houses have been built to keep up with the rebound in population. 1939 - Londons population was 8,615,05, with 13,857 people per KM^2. In 2001 it was 7,172,036 with a population density of 11,536 per KM^2.
rayban it’s both.
Agreed.
Utter nonsense £80 000 a year even in london puts you in the top 5% of earners in the country – that makes you rich by any objective standard. You may not feel rich – but you are.
This is how things are so distorted in this country. the idea that you can be amongst the highers earners in the country and not be rich. Some of you guys are so divorced from reality and whats worse you have no understanding of how skewed your world view is!
No - you're so brainwashed with your own little brand of socialism that you are completely unable to be pragmatic or objective. Witness the fact that your objections to my argument make no attempt to counter any of the points I raised; you just continue with the ad hominem logical fallacies.
It's rather sad, but if the viewpoints you espouse are representative of the Labour Party, I almost want the Tories to win this election. I say this as a firm remainer and someone whose political viewpoints are well left of centre, so I suggest you go and have a good think about that.
JP
£80K in London is peanut ...
Rayban your viewpoints are right of centre as can clearly be seen by the utter pish you spout. You want high earners to pay less tax, you scream and shout "class war" at any attempt to redistibute weealth or to reduce the privedge the rich have, you think we are highly taxed and you think someone earning more than 95% of the country is not rich and you claim to be left of centre?
Why on earth do you link me with the labour party? I am a dark green politically. Haven't voted labour in 15 years now.
Rayban your viewpoints are right of centre as can clearly be seen by the utter pish you spout. You want high earners to pay less tax, you scream and shout “class war” at any attempt to redistibute weealth or to reduce the privedge the rich have, you think we are highly taxed and you think someone earning more than 95% of the country is not rich and you claim to be left of centre?
That's all bollocks and you know that, I have not claimed that those earning more should pay less tax. You have completely failed to see any nuance in my argument and instead gone straight to assuming that what I am trying to do, is make a case for reducing redistributive practices - because the logical endpoint of your own argument is ridiculous.
If more devolved taxation is good for Scotland, it's good for other parts of the UK as well. It could even help those areas be more competitive in comparison to London, if the locals chose to undercut London by reducing corporation tax. The point being, it would be for locals to decide, as long as each state had a nationally agreed taxation obligation (so that say, London was still a net contributor to state based wealth redistribution).
Don't assume you know what my political beliefs are, they aren't fixed and never will be.
Rayban if you devolve tax policy then you have to have regional Govt as per Scotland and you also have devolve control over expenditure - health, education social care, etc - same as Scotland
Sounds like a lot of referendums, regional MPs, regional bureaucracy...
Rayban if you devolve tax policy then you have to have regional Govt as per Scotland and you also have devolve control over expenditure – health, education social care, etc – same as Scotland
Sounds like a lot of referendums, regional MPs, regional bureaucracy…
But that is what is missing in this country, peoples connection to politics and sense of agency. The yanks have a population of 300+ million and have 50 states - each with strong local powers and yet we cannot have stronger regional powers?
The current system has everyone arguing with each other due to their own local concerns, it's paralyzing the country and causing it to be an inward looking, navel gazing, arse sniffing, hateful and angry backwater.
Rayban if you devolve tax policy then you have to have regional Govt as per Scotland and you also have devolve control over expenditure – health, education social care, etc – same as Scotland
Only if you devolve it on a regional basis. Local authorities could be used in a much more meaningful way with the creation of local income taxes for example.
The yanks have a population of 300+ million and have 50 states – each with strong local powers and yet we cannot have stronger regional powers?
Brexit was pointless enough.
And yet if people had felt more connected to politics, Brexit might never have happened 5thElefant!
DazH, where are you on this? I want to hear from you, your opinions on the way we are divided have influenced me here!
So Boris and Swinson took a pounding there eh? 😆
If the polls don't start to shift after that, England is lost, forever! 😆
80k/yr is 2.85 times the average in Bolton and 2.05 times London. So, yes, 80k is way up there in both places. How expensive a place is to live doesn't necessarily affect the salaries of the people who live there.
If the polls don’t start to shift after that, England is lost, forever
The only thing Boris has to do to win is not screw up massively. Anyone else and you'd think it was a dead cert. but there is an outside chance. There was nothing I that performance that's going to move the polls much. He took some hits but nothing major.
I don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with Corbyn picking a side/campaigning for one side in his proposed solution. His addresses the problem in the original referendum. Show people the deal, and ask them if they want to leave on those terms or stay. Why do you give a crap which way he wants it to go as long as he does what you tell him?
Anyone who doesn't think £80K a year is a lot of money is ****ing insane. Imagine life on the national average and then think about that £80K again. And then think about life on National Minimum Wage. Still think you're hard done by?
If you're (generic, not specific) finding it hard to make ends meet on that sort of money you're an idiot and should learn to live within your means.
Mr 80k turns out to be from Bury. Not many 80k earners up here, the self entitled prick. I work in Bolton and I’m seeing homeless every day.
80k/yr is 2.85 times the average in Bolton and 2.05 times London. So, yes, 80k is way up there in both places. How expensive a place is to live doesn’t necessarily affect the salaries of the people who live there.
But it does affect their ability to absorb tax increases doesn't it, including those on the median income in London.
Someone on 28k a year in Bolton or £1881 PCM after tax, would need to earn £3,231 after tax to have the same standard of living in London - around 60k.
Disparities like that need to be factored into decisions on taxation, otherwise you will just further fuel the divide between London and the North.
80k in London is not rich.
Try telling that to to poor bastards that that deliver your food or serve you a sammich in pret. Where do you think they live? Do they commute in just to work in fast food?
Anyone who doesn’t think £80K a year is a lot of money is **** insane.
Agreed. And people reminding us that you need to be rich to really live the good life in London doesn’t change that. Yes, there are better places to live than London if you’re not rich, we get that.
I'm pleased to see that forum posters from both sides of the Brexit debate and apparently of strongly opposing party political allegiances seem to be in broad agreement in this thread.
A growing disparity of wealth is something we all find very offensive, we just differ in our view of who is responsible for it and how we should address it.
It's a start, I suppose.
Tories have played a blinder by refusing to send anyone to newsnight for past two nights, not even cleverly. They must be pissin themselves watching the new bbc attack dog du jour Emma Barnett going at the labour guy. But seriously why bother ? Why even publish a manifesto. Just do the bare minimum and watch the votes roll in from the binheads.
Try telling that to to poor bastards that that deliver your food or serve you a sammich in pret. Where do you think they live? Do they commute in just to work in fast food?
Of course - but they're lives are even less affordable than they are in the North.
Different countries have different tax regimes to suit their own local conditions, the difference between London and the North is now just as great as the difference found between many countries. It's holding both areas of the country back by having them on the same tax regime, the North needs to tax certain pay brackets more and perhaps even try to get industry in by cutting corporation tax, London perhaps less so (right now) with its current affordability crisis.
raybanwomble
Member
Try telling that to to poor bastards that that deliver your food or serve you a sammich in pret. Where do you think they live? Do they commute in just to work in fast food?Of course – but they’re lives are even less affordable than they are in the North.
Different countries have different tax regimes to suit their own local conditions, the difference between London and the North is now just as great as the difference found between many countries. It’s holding both areas of the country back by having them on the same tax regime, the North needs to tax certain pay brackets more and perhaps even try to get industry in by cutting corporation tax, London perhaps less so (right now) with its current affordability crisis.
Or perhaps the uk need to stop being so london centric and spread the investment around to bring the other areas up to the same level.
Of course – but they’re lives are even less affordable than they are in the North.
Tell them to get off thier arses and move to Sunderland then?
They can then earn an honest wage without fear of becoming redundant .. Oh wait..
ROFL
Someone on 28k a year in Bolton or £1881 PCM after tax, would need to earn £3,231 after tax to have the same standard of living in London – around 60k.
Well I'm a bit dubious of your numbers but generally I agree. The higher the basic costs of living, the less discretionary spending power they've got. So taxes would cut into that more.
Or perhaps the uk need to stop being so london centric and spread the investment around to bring the other areas up to the same level
Could this not be partly helped by allowing the North to up income tax and drop corporation tax, allowing it to invest more and also steal business from London?
There are lots of ways to skin a cat, I really think the UK needs something creative to try and sort the mess we are in. I don’t see what is currently on offer by any party, healing the polarisation.
We all care about our fellow human beings on here, usually when the shit hits the fan for a forum member everyone contributes despite their political affiliations. A lot of us just differ on implementation, we need to find a bipartisan way to make this dingy ****ing island a better place.
Anyone who doesn’t think £80K a year is a lot of money is **** insane. Imagine life on the national average and then think about that £80K again. And then think about life on National Minimum Wage. Still think you’re hard done by?
I am in that bracket and my money is pretty much gone by the time pay day comes. That doesn't mean I am not rich, it just means I have found things to spend/waste my money on (big mortgage, new car, nice food, lots of animals) Minimum wage wouldn't even cover my mortgage payments.
And because I am in that bracket it allowed me to buy a relatively expensive house which now has a lot of equity in it so worst case I could sell up and live in a flat and live on minimum wage.
Not a choice for anyone that is not rich.
But it does affect their ability to absorb tax increases doesn’t it, including those on the median income in London.
Someone on 28k a year in Bolton or £1881 PCM after tax, would need to earn £3,231 after tax to have the same standard of living in London – around 60k.
Disparities like that need to be factored into decisions on taxation, otherwise you will just further fuel the divide between London and the North.
Can you run through this with me slowly, because you seem to be suggesting that the North is favoured in the North South divide? I mean I'll admit I was a bit lost when you started ranting on about 80k not being much, but this post is downright befuddling are you suggesting tax increases for the north to help the struggling south?
Rayban, the North, in general, already hates London and all it stands for and you think increasing individual taxation there will fix that??? Great plan. [/sarcasm]
There needs to be massive investment in pretty much everywhere except London and I doubt that even that would be enough to fix the north-south divide.
Heard a guy on the radio yesterday moaning that his £100k salary made it hard to get by as his wife didn't work in order to look after their 4 kids, so what with mortgage, two cars etc, he only had £800 a month left for saving and discretionary spending.
Apparently that wasn't what he went to university and worked 60 hours a week for, just to pay more tax to support the ****less workshy.
I wasn't moved to sympathy by his plight.
the North, in general, already hates London
I love London. Could never afford to live there. I’m not sure taxing people more simply because they’ve came to the same conclusion makes much sense. A local income tax, or a wealth tax that’s a bit less of a guess than council tax, has merits though.
I absolutely love that.
Just to quantify:
We don’t hate London at all.
We hate a London-centric government that doesn’t even bother to pretend it gives a shit about us.
The investment in transport infrastructure sums it up. We watch the billions poured into Crossrail as we sit in converted buses from the 1980’s trundling down Victorian train lines. When they actually turn up.
Another reason to vote Labour. We might actually see some desperately needed infrastructure investment.
We were promised it by George Osborne with all his Northern Powerhouse bullshit. None of it ever materialised.
We need proper devolved power to the regions in this country. We’re the most centralised economy in the developed world, and that isn’t working for anyone outside the south east
Binners, didn't 'the North' get all those lovely new trams a while back? Not Victorian ex busses?
Molly, binners is referring to the fact that Northern uses Pacer railway carriages, they're based on converted coaches, they were a "stop-gap" introduced in the '80s and we were promised that they'd be phased out this year, but that's slipped a couple of years. Northern Rail still hasn't managed to agree terms with it's drivers and conductors, so our weekend trains are based on whether enough drivers can be arsed to turn up for some overtime.
When a Tory minister says that perhaps Northern is so rubbish that it may have to return to public ownership, you know they are properly shit
Interesting if not very deep analysis of UK taxation. Remember in most of europe you pay healthcare on top of taxation ( albeit not to US levels)
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/nov/23/are-britains-high-earners-taxed-too-much-or-too-little
NOw this shows the nonsense spouted on here that if we raise taxes a tiny bit all high earners will flee to mainland europe - they won't because even after Corbyns tax rises we still will be taxing less than most.
HS2 was started at the wrong end to begin with.
The money for LHR’s 3rd runway would be better off spent at either Manchester, Brum or LGW - there’d probably be loose change for a few hospitals after too!
We’ve a history of doing shite civil engineering in this country & precious few passable ones.
I’m F’d if I know why we find it so hard!
Is “the money for LHR’s 3rd runway” coming from the state?
And HS2 is all about increasing north-south capacity… just get it build. It “starting in the North” is a red herring. Just GET IT DONE. North connected to South, not a chunk of it.
Anyway… distractions… I came here to start pushing this, hard…
http://www.bestforbritain.org/getvoting