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Aaaand it's off again. Swinson looks like she's bottled it. Apparently the 12th is no good, but the 9th is absolutely fine. As long as she gets to say it was her election date, and no one elses. Anyone care to explain what difference 3 days makes? And yet everyone says the labour party are the 6th formers, and some on here even think she might be the next PM. Clueless.
Anyone care to explain what difference 3 days makes?
Stops BJ brexiting before the election
BBC News - Brexit election: Lib Dems and SNP plan to force earlier poll
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50194685
Stops BJ brexiting before the election
Yep best chance there is of stopping johnson from getting his del thru, with the help of labour mps
Anyone care to explain what difference 3 days makes?
It's already been explained in this thread (or the other one). It's to prevent a pre-election Brexit.
Aaaand it’s off again. Swinson looks like she’s bottled it. Apparently the 12th is no good, but the 9th is absolutely fine.
I thought that was her plan anyway. 9th to avoid Brexit before election.
All change again. Withdrawal Agreement legislation parked according to Rees-Mogg at the dispatch box. Election legislation to be rushed. SNP and LibDem support for a super snappy election now seems unlikely to me… why bother if Brexit legislation now put to one side? 2020 election? Maybe after a referendum? Who knows…
How easy is it to all of a sudden overturn the FTPA?
Why not before now?
How easy is it to all of a sudden overturn the FTPA?
No parliament can constrain future parliaments so it can be overturned with a simple majority of one.
Why not before now?
Because the government doesn't have a simple majority of one. Plus amendments. Plus they always had something better to try.
Because the government doesn’t have a simple majority of one. Plus amendments. Plus they always had something better to try.
So it could only happen because the Dems put it out there?
Why not before now?
This is a fair assessment of why now.....
https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/10/24/remain-should-push-for-an-election
So it could only happen because the Dems put it out there?
Yup, Dems and SNP are the only opposition parties willing to kick this Government out of office and do something practical to get Art50 revoked.
The irony of all this is that if this election is to stop Brexit as the stated aim of LD and SNP - then it needs to deliver a Labour led Govt - this maybe a minority with support from SNP, LD and others. But any other even vaguely feasible result either leaves stalemate or a Boris Johnson deal Brexit
If the LD and SNP are playing this straight they are relying on a Labour surge as per 2017 to deliver their stated objective
Yup, Dems and SNP are the only opposition parties willing to kick this Government out of office and do something practical to get Art50 revoked.
That will not happen. Can't see it.
I think we could see labour backing this today now that Johnson has withdrawn the brexit bill. By all accounts Corbyn and others on the left are pushing for it and it's the centrists who have cold feet. The student vote aside, the 12th may not be so bad as labour have a huge ground operation which the tories don't have which will be of huge benefit in getting the vote out.
he irony of all this is that if this election is to stop Brexit as the stated aim of LD and SNP – then it needs to deliver a Labour led Govt – this maybe a minority with support from SNP, LD and others
For sure.
Siwndleson won't do that as she puts power/increased seats above Brexit.
Bit cocky for someone in a with a smallish majority and who lost to the SNP in 2015.
I think we could see labour backing this today now that Johnson has withdrawn the brexit bill.
Yeah. Let's do it.
Will certainly make Xmas different.
I await proposed amendments to the Early Election Bill with interest.
I'd go for the " If no party wins an overall majority in the GE then that immediately triggers a properly scrutinised, legally binding, 2nd brexit referendum" option to establish conclusively what the will of the people actually is.
Boris wants to Get Brexit Done. That'll sort it either way.
if this election is to stop Brexit as the stated aim of LD and SNP – then it needs to deliver a Labour led Govt
Not true. The lib dems are the only party with remain as their policy. They're neck and neck with Labour in the polls and seat distribution is impossible to calculate. For the first time in 100 years, and perhaps for the last time the Libdems could win. Tories and Labour are both losing votes to BP and Lib dems. (The only reason to vote Labour this time is habit since their Brexit policy is to offer a glorified coin toss.)
The student vote aside, the 12th may not be so bad
Students can easily arrange postal votes, I expect they already do. I think the 12th will be fine.
” If no party wins an overall majority in the GE then that immediately triggers a properly scrutinised, legally binding, 2nd brexit referendum”
A big yes to this from me. I'm opposed to all referendums on this topic (and most others) but that totally overcomes all my objections.
If the LD and SNP are playing this straight they are relying on a Labour surge as per 2017 to deliver their stated objective
Not necessarily.
If the SNP & Lib Dems manage to take No Deal away from Blohard before an election, then the tory vote would be diluted at the GE by the Brexit Party. Furthermore, with No Deal removed from any form of tory inspired Brexit, the tories would be split in Government as the ERG and Moggists are desperate for a No Deal Brexit and would probably vote against any softening of Brexit.
So IMO, the SNP & Lib Dems aren't relying on a Labour surge but gambling on splitting the tory party over Brexit and diluting their vote.
Will 9th or 12th December be achievable if the option to include 16/17 year old is accepted?
I await proposed amendments to the Early Election Bill with interest.
The reason Boris didn't go for this earlier was due to the fear of amendments scuppering his brexit plans. At the very least I would expect an amendment to rule out a no deal under any circumstances. If that is passed then labour will support it as that's been their position all along.
I also note quotes from Diane Abbott in shadow cabinet. You really have to marvel at the sheer cowardice of the centrists. Whining f***** the lot of them.
Not true. The lib dems are the only party with remain as their policy.
Not true. I suspect your logic is that of Swinson and co though. The lure of power outweighs the risks.
Will 9th or 12th December be achievable if the option to include 16/17 year old is accepted?
That does seem somewhat suspect and gesture politics. Even if it managed to get passed the logistics seem hard to get through in the time frame.
Will 9th or 12th December be achievable if the option to include 16/17 year old is accepted?
Who knows but 16/17yo should not be allowed to vote IMHO. Or if they are considered worthy of that responsibility then all the other legislation that protects/limits them because they are children needs to change to reflect their new status as fully rational responsible adults. (Alcohol, driving, Children's Act).
The lib dems are the only party with remain as their policy.
Not true.
Which other party has remain as their policy?
Seems to me that the Tories/BP are leave, the Libdems are remain and all the others are the coin toss of a referendum.
I would expect an amendment to rule out a no deal under any circumstances.
A future Parliament cannot be held by any such amendment
Voting for 16/17 year olds is a SNP policy. It's hardly "gesture politics" for them to suggest it this time around. Note that they also want to include EU nationals resident in the UK.
If you can join the armed forces or get married when 16 then you should definitely have the right to vote.
What a total cluster.
At this point in time I feel I have nothing to add except for continuing posting subsistence-budget meal-recipes and dad-jokes.
When did this country become two competing species of rat floating on a leaking ship stranded in the doldrums? Uncle Sam will be along shortly to mop up.
“centrists” … “lure of power” …
And then getting all excited at the idea of Labour falling in behind the tactics of the SNP and LibDems derided only yesterday …
Tribalism is odd.
I still think a December election is an awful idea, but Johnson has managed to make it look essential to stop Brexit happening first (with the help of a few Labour MPs). I can’t see this ending well.
the Libdems are remain and all the others are the coin toss of a referendum.
So,by this logic, you are saying the Libdems have only recently become a remain party. Curious.
I think the LibDems have been pretty clear “for a while” that they want Brexit stopped. At the recent Labour conference they voted to decide after the next general election whether they want Brexit stopped, to chants and singing of the leader’s name. So, yes, Labour still have a coin flip policy… perhaps it’s a clever plan to keep people on side who want lots of different Brexit outcomes… if you give them the benefit of the doubt. We’ll see how that pans out all too soon it seems…
For the first time in 100 years, and perhaps for the last time the Libdems could win.
What odds are you giving against that happening as I will have a £1,000 on it please. In no way ever are the lib dems going to come close to winning.
There's no road long enough for Labour to kick the can down.
The SNP are also a remain party. And are bigger than the Lib Dems
I think the LibDems have been pretty clear “for a while” that they want Brexit stopped.
Not by outofbreaths definition.
So, yes, Labour still have a coin flip policy
Or, as it is otherwise known, giving the confirmatory choice to the people. Admittedly a bit of a coin flip but then again that is the Libdems true position as well if we ignore the yellow unicorns.
Do Labour want Brexit?
[a reminder that I’m voting Labour, and would urge most of you to do so as well (depending on which seat your are in), but this pretence about LibDem policy on Brexit from Labour supporters is nonsense]
So,by this logic, you are saying the Libdems have only recently become a remain party.
Yes, I am, before that they were a referendum party.
Indeed Vince Cable called for an EU referendum in 2007 and an EU referendum was in their manifesto in 2010, so they've had a long recent history of not being a remain party.
The SNP are also a remain party.
They're not, they want a referendum. They're arguing for a 50/50 coin flip with leave as one of the options.
Beyond that, if the SNP have been offered a No Deal exit from the UK and the EU in 2014 (or today) they'd would bite your arm off.
but this pretence about LibDem policy on Brexit from Labour supporters is nonsense]
a)I am not a Labour supporter and b) its outofbreaths definition.
As for the Libdems. I prefer something a bit more solid than their yellow unicorns. I find it fascinating that people rant and rave about Labour lack of precision but dont ask the questions about what exactly Libdems are offering. If I tactically vote for them what will happen if they dont get a majority. What will they want on the ballot paper? Considering their consistent attacks on Labour will they try and force a new leader more in their mould?
Corbyn fan boi Paul Mason has just been on Five Live explaining Labours Brexit Policy.
The preference is still very much Red Unicorns. He said that the northern labour constituancies want a labour government but also want the referendum result honoured and for us to leave the EU. Tellingly, he made no mention of a second referendum.
Considering their consistent attacks on Labour will they try and force a new leader more in their mould?
YES. There is no way the lib dems will work with Corbyn or Boris in government. Whatever happens they will make it conditional on the party they work with having a credible leader. Which frankly won't be a problem, because they can't work with the Torys because the Torys have put all their eggs in a leave basket and Corbyn will go anyway if he doesn't win outright.
(Ok, we don't know all of that but we can make a pretty shrewd guess.)
It's on. Corbyn has confirmed they will support an election. It's a relief, if only for the fact that the thread title is correct again 🙂
*endless screaming*
Right… can I geolock my posts for the next two months? I’d like to be posting tactically based on where other contributors get to post their votes, ‘till this next messy stage is over.
If you’re in Calderdale, vote Labour.
I beg you.
For the first time in 100 years, and perhaps for the last time the Libdems could win.
What odds are you giving against that happening as I will have a £1,000 on it please.
I don't bet ever but if I did I wouldn't bet on this. This is the hardest election to predict in our lifetimes.