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And the point of a political party is not to be some endless protest group.
At some point they have to step up and actually get elected, then do something.
Corbyn and Momentum are just quite happy in their comfort zone, virtue signalling and waving placards. And Boris and the Tory’s can’t believe their bloody luck...
Fully agree their dazh - but the issue from where I see it, is that under corbyn, labour has stopped being the party for workers, and become the party for ideological middle class "dinner party socialists" rather than representing the grafters that have been their traditional power base.
There seems to be a lack of pragmatism in favour of ideology, and that ideology isn't necessarily in line with what the electorate want. It's no good saying "the party membership want this" or worse, momentum want this, if it ultimately harms electability.
So we end up with a permanent Tory government because…
No you end up with a labour party true to it's roots and principles and never beholden to dangerous narcissists like Blair who will do anything to win or to maintain his power. You shouldn't underestimate the impact of Iraq. If you're looking for root causes to labour's current predicament, this is where you'll find them.
Permanent opposition is permanent opposition, no matter how you slice it
If you can’t make an impact against this shower of hard right incompetents then there’s really no point to you.
It’s the dictionary definition of failure
There seems to be a lack of pragmatism in favour of ideology, and that ideology isn’t necessarily in line with what the electorate want.
Labour under Corbyn have been more pragmatic than I ever thought they'd be. The brexit policy is good example of pragmatism trumping ideology. Same with defence. Even the unashamedly radical economic policies have erred on the side of pragmatic caution, especially in fiscal policy.
As for what's in line with the electorate's wishes, labour policies have been shown in both polls and elections to be massively popular. There's understandable inertia following the consensus created by 40 years of neoliberalism (which is much more ideological than anything labour have done), so it won't change overnight, but it doesn't mean it can't be, or that they should give up at the first hurdle. Overturning the current neoliberal socialism for the rich model will take time, an numerous election cycles. Labour can either keep fighting for that or give up. I know what I would prefer.
The problem with a more right/centrist Labour party is that it allows the Tories to become even more Right wing by moving the "central" ground.
However, the balance at the moment seems to be fundamentally wrong. There are a lot of natural Labour supporters on this thread and on STW in general but any suggestions they have about improving the lot of the Labour party are shot down in flames by the same 2 or 3 posters. Surely there has to come a time for listening to the actual electorate instead of preaching to them?
I’m struggling to see how the Labour Party rediscovering pragmatism could make this Tory government any more right wing?
Have you seen the present cabinet?
It’s an Ayn Rand fan club FFS!
And the present Labour Party ‘leadership’ can’t even offer an alternative to that?
Surely there has to come a time for listening to the actual electorate instead of preaching to them?
Can't be having the pesky electorate involved in things. They might get it wrong.
Surely there has to come a time for listening to the actual electorate instead of preaching to them?
If that were true we'd be out of the EU now so be careful what you wish for.
Binners, can you tell us what you disliked about the last Labour Manifesto?
They just want a real labour party in power, not a sad imitation tory apologist one. This is the legacy of Blair (along with 1 million dead people in Iraq but that’s old news apparently). The reason Corbyn is leader now, and why the membership will elect another leftwinger after him is because Blair abandoned everything that was held dear to labour members and supporters. So next time you go on about how great he was (apart from the 1 million dead people of course), just remember he caused all this. A political party doens’t need to be idealogically pure, but it does need ideals, that’s all the membership want (and no more deaths on their consciences).
You are correct in that assessment - Labour had become almost indistinguishable from the Tories during the Blair/Brown years. I hoped, initially, that Corbyn's rise would mark a shift to a sensible kind of socialism, but, unfortunately, he's gone totally loony left. I find it strange that his supporters don't see that that he's just as much a believer in magical unicorns as all of the Brexiteer Conservative nutters. The only difference is the colour of the unicorn.
JP
what you disliked about the last Labour Manifesto?
Well, I liked the 2017 Labour Manifesto, apart from the bit that accepted a hard Brexit as the only way of interpreting the 2016 result… at least Labour bothered with a manifesto… the other UK wide parties didn’t really try. It’s 2019 now… probably 2020 when the election hits… how has Corbyn been preparing for the reality of what the election campaign is going to be like? Is he really up to the challenge? Is he winning people over? He’s had a fair while in the post now.
he’s gone totally loony left.
Which policies specifically?
I also liked the Labour manifesto and felt it was going in the right direction. I am sure that a lot of voters would feel the same if they read it. Unfortunately people are not reading manifestos now (did they ever?) and the personality at the top is the most important bit (rightly or wrongly).
Corbyn is simply the wrong person for the job. Yes I agree he has been a good politician who tends to vote for the right things but that does not make him a leader and having him as leader doesn't help the party get elected and those good policies put into practice.
Unfortunately people are not reading manifestos now (did they ever?) and the personality at the top is the most important bit
They didn't read them in 2017. It was the campaign, and in large part Corbyn's campaign events, which presented the policies to the electorate. You seem to be conveniently forgetting the fact that at the start of the campaign he wasn't doing too well, by the end of it he had thousands turning up to public rallies. Of course that doesn't mean it will happen again, but then no one thought it would in 2017.
Labour polling results jumped when the manifesto was leaked.
The success against what turned out to be such a slick Tory campaign, with May absolutely on fire, meeting and greeting wherever she went, kissing babies, dancing a bit, etc in 2017 was amazing too.
Surely there has to come a time for listening to the actual electorate instead of preaching to them?
If that were true we’d be out of the EU now so be careful what you wish for.
Disregard Brexit and have a think about what you just posted.
Right, so people like the policies but don't like JC?
But without JC, would those policies exist?
As someone eloquently put it, would you rather live on your knees, or die on your feet?
I'm not going back to the days of Tory appeasement, the moral Chaimberlainesque cowardice that means it would have been cheaper to put the cost of rebuilding Blackburn Hospital on a credit card than selling it off to the private sector via PPI.
No more.
It's time to stand up for what you believe in.
I'm not willing to stand by and watch any more of the most vulnerable in our society die because it's inconvenient to do otherwise.
This society is riddled with endemic greed and selfishness.
Time for change.
If people can't see beyond a beard, then God help us all.
By all means let's have Starmer as leader.
As long as he pledges to push through a democratic socialist manifesto containing the key points of the previous one.
If supposedly decent, honest people are prepared to witness the destruction of our post war society, perhaps we should just scrap the whole thing and start again?
And Binners, that's your cue to either post yet another ****ing picture of Wolfie Smith or answer the question.
RS - what you think doesn't matter if you can't drag enough of the electorate along with you. You can either campaign, persuade, cajole folk over a long enough period that you eventually change their minds or you compromise to get more of them on board and at least get some of your policies implemented.
You lucky sods never fell for the Tory lies. 🙂
Ah well, good luck in Europe. You deserve it.
Any chance of moving the border 100 miles south?
democratic socialist manifesto
AS yet nobody has managed democratic socialism. The talented/hardworkers leave so you have to get autocratic to stop them.
Fortunately we have two experiments on two different countries so we know exactly how socialism ends up:
West and East Germany started from *exactly* the same starting point. Which of those would you rather have been poor in?
North and South Korea started from *exactly* the same starting point. Which of those would you rather be poor in?
I'm all for conducting further experiments in Socialism, just not in the UK. If it works elsewhere we can adopt it.
Don’t be so cynical.
It’s going great in Venezuela
Yeah, but that wasn't real socialism.
Rusty - I don’t have that much of a problem with the last labour manifesto. I voted for it. Apart from the magic money trees needed to pay for it all. But the Tory’s are now doing that too
I do have a problem with the fact that I can’t see even the most rudimentary level of competence from Jeremy or those in his clique. They’re imbeciles. I wouldn’t trust them to run a bath, never mind the economy
And I have a problem with him as his cabal as they look like they’d quickly and happily follow the well-trodden socialist mould of becoming very very authoritarian, very very quickly
But most of all I have a problem with him and his record as a Brexiteer and his red unicorns
Don’t be so cynical. It’s going great in Venezuela
Funny you should mention Venezuela because when I saw this exchange:
Surely there has to come a time for listening to the actual electorate instead of preaching to them?
If that were true we’d be out of the EU now so be careful what you wish for.
I couldn't help but reflect on this:
President Maduro acknowledged PSUV defeat, but attributed the opposition's victory to an intensification of an economic war. Despite this, Maduro said "I will stop by hook or by crook the opposition coming to power, whatever the costs, in any way".[173] In the following months, Maduro fulfilled his promise of preventing the democratically and constitutionally elected National Assembly from legislating.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela#Suspension_of_constitutional_rights
When people start telling us we're too stupid/badly informed to govern ourselves I get a bit jumpy. I accept we *are* stupid and badly informed, but as Thatcher said "each generation has to stand up for democracy." and part of standing up for democracy is being slow to accept that we're better off with well informed leaders making decisions for us. 'They' may be better informed than us, 'they' may make faster better decisions than us but sooner or later totalitarianism always ends up in a worse place than democracy.
Apart from the magic money trees needed to pay for it all. But the Tory’s are now doing that too
This. We're living in the era of the pork barrel and our kids will be picking up our tab.
Rusty – I don’t have that much of a problem with the last labour manifesto. I voted for it.
Yet you've ignored and marginalised it.
And I have a problem with him as his cabal as they look like they’d quickly and happily follow the well-trodden socialist mould of becoming very very authoritarian, very very quickly
Oh I agree. He's a knob.
AS yet nobody has managed democratic socialism
Whereas social democracy...
How the * is Corbyn still the main talking point when Boris **** Johnson is the alternative!?
How the * is Corbyn still the main talking point when Boris **** Johnson is the alternative!?
Beards apparently.
Johnson has widened the appeal for his party by offering Hard as Hell Brexit to those barking for it, and increased borrowing and public spending to people who just want Brexit ‘out of the way’ and austerity ended. Both those groups think he is a liar… but he’s offering what they want… wrapped up in winning talk and the Union Flag, so will take a punt on him.
Corbyn needs to widen the appeal for his party as well. And his campaign should have started when Johnson's did. Or, if it did, it needed to be carried out more effectively.
In the (2020) election, Labour will do better, and the Conservatives worse, than they are polling now… but I don’t see that ending up with a Labour majority… like many people I’m just hoping a Conservative majority can be avoided via tactical voting and regional swings to anyone but Johnson’s party.
How the * is Corbyn still the main talking point when Boris * Johnson is the alternative!?
It’s quite simple really. He’s a lying cheating *bag that’ll sell you out to book his place in history whatever the cost (for you, not him)
What’s left to talk about?
AS yet nobody has managed democratic socialism
Whereas social democracy…
...means the same as democratic socialism:
noun: a socialist system of government achieved by democratic means.
...and nobody has managed it. Historically once you take all the means of production, distribution, and exchange into state ownership, you have to kill democracy off because everyone wants to go back to capitalism and people start to escape to go to capitalist countries. So then you end free speech to stop people complaining and you put up a wall to stop people leaving, and then you end up shooting people to stop them escaping.
Maybe this isn't inevitable in which case another experiment in Socialism might be worth a go, but let's not make the UK that experiment. Let's see how it goes elsewhere and do it once we've seen it work.
How anyone can keep supporting unfettered neolibralism is beyond me. By design it cannot work - it concentrates wealth and doesn't reward some of the most difficult jobs in society. It breeds massive inequality and poor public services.
Our country is flattened by growing personal debt (propped up by low interest rates) and poor quality opportunities. How does asset stripping and turning everything into a market solve this? It doesn't.
The country needs mass investment into everything that shapes our lives. If the money is spent into the economy (certainly infrastructure) and the workforce takes up the slack there is no issue with deficits. The Tories hugely missed the mark and created a last breath economy, and it will get worse and worse until we redistribute and invest.
A sovereign country can't run out of cash either. Read Stephanie Kelton now.
Socialism only fails when the marketeers don't want to make it work. Or conversely when they need to socialise the losses.
There may be other versions of hybrid capitalism that might work but certainly not the neolib variant we have now.
It's doomed. Don't vote for it.
In fact I would say Brexit is pretty much the culmination of failed neolibralism. Even if it's the wrong target - people have had enough it's just a shame that they swing more to the right in this process.
That's the bitter pill.
A sovereign country can’t run out of cash either.
I’ve lost my German 50 Million Mark note… it used to be my favourite bookmark.
So we have just had a remainer elected for our strongly leave - labour (ex John Mann) constituency.
We will be Tory at the next election.
Bet ya.
I’ve lost my German 50 Million Mark note… it used to be my favourite bookmark
??
Don't give me the inflation twaddle.
How much inflation did the q/e of the banks cause?
Zip.
Inflation is the product of underlying problems in the economy. I.e massive instability or corruption a la Zimbabwe.
Inflation is controlled by taxation. Money can be removed the economy.
https://boingboing.net/2019/10/09/shattering-overton-window.html
Whereas social democracy…
…means the same as democratic socialism:
noun: a socialist system of government achieved by democratic means.
Wikipedia says "Not to be confused with democratic socialism".
"Social democracy is a political, social and economic philosophy that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist oriented mixed economy". Which, given that most economies are "capitalist oriented" includes most socialist parties.
Any of you Corbynites still delusional enough to think that Labour is in any position to fight a general election should read Andrew Rawnsley in todays Observer
Turkeys won’t vote for Christmas when the polls are telling them they’ll be stuffed
With the cabals obsession with ‘restoring democracy to the party’ (read: getting rid of everyone who doesn’t agree with Jeremy) they are actually in a position, with their trigger ballots and mandatory re-selections, where they have key marginal constituencies where they don’t actually have candidates in place yet. With a General Election imminent. Unbelievable. Well... it should be. In any serious political party
Meanwhile Dom and Dommer started their election campaign 3 months ago and are dictating the narrative
This country is in desperate need of an effective opposition, that’s a realistic party of government. Instead we’ve got a bunch of pious, sanctimonious, preachy, self-regarding, self-serving incompetents who seem to be completely detached from reality.
Maybe, after the 5 years of Boris that they’re helping to deliver, and god only knows what that will take us, a grateful nation will be ready to vote for the socialist revolution next time, eh?
Maybe that’s the ‘plan’. I’m sure everyone about to be bent over while the Tory party go in dry will eventually be thankful for the left wing utopia it’s certain to deliver... eventually
What a bunch of ****ing clowns! To call them sixth formers would be unfair on your average sixth former. They’d probably cobble together a more credible election campaign than Corbyn and his gang of imbeciles
Meanwhile Dom and Dommer started their election campaign 3 months ago and are dictating the narrative
Well, that sounds like a pretty good reason to deny them a 2019 General Election.
How anyone can keep supporting unfettered neolibralism is beyond me. By design it cannot work – it concentrates wealth and doesn’t reward some of the most difficult jobs in society. It breeds massive inequality and poor public services.
It's working fine in Somalia.