[Closed] 2019 General Election

Gloaters: are you old, or poorly educated, or perhaps both? In none, do you aspire to be either?

As I may have mentioned at the time of the referendum, the U.K. has seemingly proven that the modal level of education has fallen behind the mean.

Johnson may be untrustworthy, but on the issue of Brexit he had earned the trust of the electorate and that was all he was selling - he had ruthlessly pursued it by proroguing parliament and expelling MPs - and that showed his determination to deliver. Having developed that trust, all he had to do was ask permission from the electorate to pursue his aims and he got it. He didn't need to do anymore because his opposition hadn't bothered to do the spade work of earning trust and contented itself with lecturing in platitudes, who would trust them to achieve anything?

This doesn't make it a Brexit election, he just didn't need to do more because he was lucky in his opponents.

@Rusty Spanner

Your post very much vocalises how I feel. I'm angry, saddened, worried and... Not even sure of the rest.

In truth I'm not entirely happy about how I feel at the moment. I've made a habit of telling myself that most people, on the whole, are fundamentally decent.

I can still, just about, say that to myself as the Tories gained less than 50% of the vote. I'm clutching at straws here though and I know it.

In all honestly I'm doing a lot of soul searching to make sense of this and im struggling. I have to question, are my preconceptions of decency and mortality wrong? Should the strong and mortally flexible thrive at the cost of the weak? Right or wrong, that seems to be how it's playing out. I just can't find it within myself to think that is correct... That it's how it should be.

I very much feel an alien in my own country. I thought better of us.

BJ's "healing" speech outside No.10 brought back Thatcher's one when she gained power. I don't need to elaborate on that.

Never realised how bloody lucky I/we were before 2016.

It’s supercilious people like you that make people like me feel that they have to come and let the World know that not everyone is as misguided as you.

Well, there’s some learning for me right there. Hard to know how not to come across as ‘supercilious’ when I’m just so gobsmacked and saddened that so many decent and good people (I’m talking people I know rather than on here, but I’d imagine it’s across the board) can be persuaded by the blurred, non specific mirage of a message offered by the Cons that they offer actually anything at all for them. I GET why people haven’t been enthused by Labour, but I don’t get how people can be so unenthused by them that the think the Tories are better.

New Years resolution; be less supercilious...

I very much feel an alien in my own country. I thought better of us.

This is how I feel too.

Take a look at yourselves FFS. Unless you’re actually five years old this behaviour just makes you look ridiculous…

That statement equally applies to the sulkers in here.  I’ve never seen such a wave of self inflicted misery and it defies intelligence that you’d do that to yourselves.

To me it is just more of the same. Thatcher got in when I was 11 and all I have seen since then are tory governments and a pretend labour government. The country is clearly a tory voting country and that explains why we have the issues we have.
The current tory government won't be any worse than thatcher, yes they will do different things but equally bad with very, very little good.

I am very protected from it all which is why I still live here I suppose.

I’m a bad winner for sure. Lefties? Hahahahahahahahahaha suck it up losers! Great day for democracy.

You are a loser when it comes to being a troll, you are crap at it.

Self inflicted?

Self inflicted?

on the basis they are winding themselves up to doom and gloom.    None of us really know what’ll happen in our worlds tomorrow even, so to drive yourself down to such pronounced level of depression is really silly.   Like I said earlier in this thread or the other, why inflict that on yourselves or your families?  Wake up, get on with things and stop worrying yourselves to an illness.

And there we are, selfishness knows no bounds.

As a teacher I often come here to take my mind off having dealt with kids and their lack of social awareness all day, but in all seriousness I’ve had many more thoughtful political discussions with 14 year olds today than I’m seeing here from some posters.

I too am a teacher, and the election was discussed by the 14 year olds I teach. I too was taken by their level headedness, knowledge and political engagement.

Worth remembering that Tory voters are very much in the minority, given that only about two-thirds of the electorate bothered to vote and of those who did vote, the majority did NOT vote for Fridgeboy.

To me it is just more of the same. Thatcher got in when I was 11 and all I have seen since then are tory governments and a pretend labour government. The country is clearly a tory voting country and that explains why we have the issues we have.
The current tory government won’t be any worse than thatcher, yes they will do different things but equally bad with very, very little good.

I am very protected from it all which is why I still live here I suppose.

I think that describes my thoughts almost exactly, except that for the most part I have not lived here, and may be obliged to move again if/when the Patel-squad come round and throw MrsJ out of the country.

Johnson may be untrustworthy, but on the issue of Brexit he had earned the trust of the electorate

... by considering backing Remain before the referendum? By voting for May's WAG when it suited his personal ambition to do so, having voted aginst it (alongside the Remainers) twice?

Worth remembering that Tory voters are very much in the minority, given that only about two-thirds of the electorate bothered to vote and of those who did vote, the majority did NOT vote for Fridgeboy.

Take a look at yourselves FFS

Both sides need to take a look at themselves.

The Tory lot gloating, Labour saying it was because everyone is 'thick' or 'poorly educated'

Politics of finger pointing; it's low

I'd argue the rage some are exhibiting is a projection of something else. Go get yourself to some talking therapy, might help ease whatever it is that's hurting you. Or you know, keep screaming on the internet...

Why are you all struggling to understand that nobody wanted Corbyn? It was said lots of times in this thread yet you wouldn’t listen.

Many people I know that wouldn’t ever talk about politics would actually mention how they were disgusted and feared what Corbyn and his followers could cause whilst in power.

You lot are supposed to be tolerant, but at the moment are acting like bigots.

Have stayed away from this thread so far as I didn't really feel I had anything to contribute that hadn't already been said but I've been thinking, on and off, since the election result and I realised that in the, very nearly, 30 years, that I've been voting, my vote in national elections has counted for something exactly 0 times.
As a resident in Scotland the system of PR (Proportional representation) that elects our MSP's means that, in that particular forum, I feel I have a level of representation.

The thing I am having trouble coming to terms with this time, is that our system of election has resulted in a huge majority for a single party after a swing towards them of only 1% since the last time.! How can that be fair or representative.? How can it be that a single party can have such overwhelming control of Parliament with a share of the vote in the region of 48% (is it just me or do the numbers 48 and 52 just keep on popping up in elections since 2016..???)

Is anyone able to explain why FPTP is still a fair system in this day and age where local issues are a tiny percentage of matters discussed in Parliament and such a huge segment of the electorate are completely unrepresented.?

Is anyone able to explain why FPTP is still a fair system in this day and age where local issues are a tiny percentage of matters discussed in Parliament and such a huge segment of the electorate are completely unrepresented.?

Admittedly when they can’t do anything they can’t balls as much up. You might be on to something...

I'm seeing a lot of people failing to acknowledge reality.
The people who do see the world as it is are the ones who just won the election.

Did you enjoy the recent hung parliament? Fringe nutters as king makers and nothing getting done?

Admittedly when they can’t do anything they can’t balls as much up. You might be on to something…

To be honest, given the way the main parties have moved towards the extremes of left and right, a hung parliament was the best I could hope for. Surely that just highlights my point though.? Throughout the world system of PR have forced politicians to (re)learn how to work together to get things done, FPTP has encouraged this kind of confrontational, territorial politics where the winner does what they want, no-one else gets a say, eventually they become unpopular and are voted out only for the newly elected party to act exactly the same way and spend most of their time undoing what was done by the previous government and so it goes, on and on. Doesn't FPTP simply encourage a system where effectively nothing gets done, it's just better hidden than a PR elected Parliament that hasn't yet learned to work together and represent everyone.?

Petition up here for getting rid of proportional representation here:
https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/westminsters-voting-system-is-bankrupt-its-time-for-proportional-representation/

But the chances of the Conservatives doing anything about it are probably zero, seeing as it serves them well + the electorate chose not to reform it the last time.

Also, the polls, predictions & the trends we've all been seeing in the run up to the election before the exit polls came in... they were slightly inaccurate weren't they!

No party that has just won by FTP wants PR. It will never happen.

I’d rather get rid of government entirely. We don’t need more laws. If anything crops up in the future we can have a vote to see if we need one again.

I’m seeing a lot of people failing to acknowledge reality.

Oh I think we're more than aware of the reaility. It's a reality where crowing, self-interested and uncaring ***** like 5thElephant are in control. And they're in control because of a system which is stacked in their favour, from constituency boundaries, bias in the media, the power of lobbyists, party funding rules and everything else. The entire edifice is designed to keep the people who care about others away from power. The people who won the election are not the ones who see the world as it is, they're the ones who made it as it is, and unsurprisingly they continue to benefit from it.

The PR numbers in an article about that petition are what prompted my thinking. But you are right, the chances of actually getting a fair voting system are very low when coming from our current system as, by design, the winner of a general election feels that they best represent the country and that the system that got them voted obviously works. Until it becomes enough of an issue that a party can get elected in the current system on a manifesto of changing the current system then it won't ever happen. Even if (in some alternate universe) the LibDems managed to get elected on another issue (lets say, as a thought experiment, that Brexit turns out to be a disaster, the LibDems organise sufficiently to be able to turn the ultimate instance of 'we told you so' into an election win. They still have PR as a bullet point on their manifesto although I believe it gets pushed further and further down the list every election). Does anyone actually believe that a newly elected government would change the very system that got them elected.? That takes some serious political morality.
The only way I can see it happening is by it being the main issue in an election or a separate referendum (to be clear I think referenda in a representative democracy are a terrrible, terrible idea), and what are the chances of something as mundane as the system of voting being the main concern of government in any of our lifetimes..?

Oh I think we’re more than aware of the reaility. It’s a reality where crowing, self-interested and uncaring ***** like 5thElephant are in control.

Actually having read back my own words it occurs to me. How can a FPTP system of election, where any of the constituencies have more than 2 parties running for election, ever be considered fair.?
If there are more than 2 parties running then 99/100 times (i.e anything other than a complete landslide victory) means that the elected MP is only representing a minority of those in his constituency, by definition of FPTP he/she must have won less than 50% of the vote.
Maybe it made sense in the days before Pitt, before such a thing as a PM existed, I cannot see how it makes sense today when every decision (more or less) made by Parliament affects us all but only a fraction of us gave them the authority to make those decisions.
Isn't a feeling of disenfranchisement by a majority of people in a country what eventually causes uprisings and civil wars.??

Isn’t a feeling of disenfranchisement by a majority of people in a country what eventually causes uprisings and civil wars.??

We’re not French.

😀 Is that the best that we aim for, for ourselves now then.?

We’re not French.

Maybe we should aspire to be though...

Maybe we should aspire to be though…

So, taking my own constituency as an example. The incumbent MP retained his seat with 46% of the vote with a turnout of, just shy of 72%.
I think this is actually a pretty good example of FPTP working as intended and yet even with those numbers it's massively unfair.

Out of 68330 registered voters, 45719 did NOT vote for the winner.!!!! How can that be.? (This includes those who are registered but did not vote, I included them because their reason for not voting cannot be known but feeling unrepresented cannot be discounted as a reason)

They simply don’t care? That’s an entirely valid position. One I held for a couple of decades until Corbyn appeared.

They simply don’t care? That’s an entirely valid position. One I held for a couple of decades until Corbyn appeared.

That's a fair point, however, if they were all made to care somehow (compulsory or mandatory voting is a whole other issue), unless they ALL voted for the 2nd place candidate, it STILL wouldn't have made any difference.

Part of me is wondering if the Tories will change their attitude to investing in the North if retaining those seats are a possibility.

unless they ALL voted for the 2nd place candidate, it STILL wouldn’t have made any difference.

So you might as well stop carrying on about how unfair this system is; it is the system in the country.

Gloating leavers, whining remainers... anyone got a mallet, we can probably drive that wedge in a little deeper yet.

Riddle me this: if brexit is so popular, what happened to the Brexit Party vote? Is it that rather than wanting brexit, most people just want it over and done with by any means? Or is there something more insidious going on?

Part of me is wondering if the Tories will change their attitude to investing in the North if retaining those seats are a possibility.

I doubt that. Remember Boris's speech, thanking people for loaning him their vote?

I doubt it too

But it could keep Labour out for decades

lets face it the populace are full of shit, they claim concern about the "environment" is high on their priorities then vote for a climate change denier.

Riddle me this: if brexit is so popular, what happened to the Brexit Party vote?

It voted Conservative to get Brexit done.

I doubt that. Remember Boris’s speech, thanking people for loaning him their vote?

That was about showing the voters in the North some respect, something sorely missing from a Labour Party who considered that it owned those people's votes.

The Tories became the Brexit party.

Tbh nothing has particularly changed regarding people's attitudes. It is probably still 50 50.

What happened yesterday though is that half of us were politically defeated.

So Brexit it is.

What happens now is the withdrawal agreement will go through. And it will be proclaimed as Brexit got done.

What happens after that as I mention on the other thread is probably a matter for lawyers and Tory policy, for the next 5 years at least.

Public opinion may vaguely sway the odd thing. But Tory policy is now king.

It's gonny be fun...

Remember Boris’s speech, thanking people for loaning him their vote?

That’s just correct use of English, he went to a different school to you.

And there we are, selfishness knows no bounds.

If you're referring to my post you're very wrong.  Just because I refuse to whip myself into a frenzy over something I can't change, doesn't mean my human nature, fatherhood or philanthropy has changed.  It doesn't mean I agree with the outcome, like Boris or the establishment, or Corbyn either.

Other than this thread, the last two days have been exactly the same for me - in general - as the two days before it, the next two likely the same.  However, those that are feeling sad, angry, stressed, planning a move, raging, etc aren't are they?  They hurt themselves - and achieved what exactly by doing it?  A few more words and a few more pages on an internet thread - whoopee.

I’m alright jack.

I hope things continue to be that way for you.