That's absolutely normal in any game - I've done it and had it done to me many times.
Makes no difference - punching or elbowing people is illegal and gets players sent off most of the time. And that's been the same for decades - we could produce endless clips of players being sent off for less than Marler did.
Funnily enough I've been thinkingthat the refs are being quite lenient on foul play this season. I watched one game, Top 14 I think, where a player was penalised for a very obvious punch in a scrum. (Prop swinging at another prop as the ball was put in, iirc.) That's been a red card forever, but the ref let it go with just a penalty.
World Rugby aren't happy about the Marler decision so he may not be out of hot water yet. EJ sending more barbs the way of the WRU.
It's all getting a bit Eastenders!
DanW
On Marler's forearm / punch. In the context of the game I don't see how it was illegal let alone a card.
That picture was prior to the contact. I don't know how anyone can think it was anything other than a cheap shot to the chin when Evan's head gets rocked back, Marler's elbow ends resting on his chin... and also the bit where you clearly see the forearm and elbow hit the chin Add in the stare deep in to Evans's eyes and the timing not in keeping with the flow of play. Marler is hardly the first to ever do anything like this but it's pretty brainless if picked up and a good try reversed.
From this picture how else could he have cleared Evans out?
[url= http://intheloose.com/2016/03/13/joe-marler-could-be-in-serious-trouble-after-these-two-incidents-during-wales-clash/ ][/url]
He didn't hit him the head because it wouldn't have been effective; Evans would have taken a blow to the side of the head and not been rolled onto his back. He hit him on the left shoulder / upper chest to roll him onto his back; Evan's own arm stops any meaningful contact with the head / chin.
Marler kind of does what you suggest with the flow of bodies... but you did see the clear contact to the chin after all momentum has stopped right and the "clearout" is over? You did watch the videos in your own link, right? 🙄 I'm not suggesting it is a hanging offence but it could have been more subtle and at a less important time for England
Can Gatland retract his apology now that we've established that Marler's comment was so trivial that no further action is needed?
Marler's forearm / punch. In the context of the game I don't see how it was illegal let alone a card.
Step away from the whiskey son, your drunk
AA - even in your link (which is from the worst angle and doesn't show it in context) then it's clear he's struck him in the armpit / under the shoulder. The wrist / forearm ends up in his face but that's absolutely normal - he's trying to get him away from the ball carrier; if you really think that level of contact in a ruck / drive for the line should be a citable offence then maybe rugbys not the game for you. I'd suggest you'd see similar or worse at 30% of rucks in most premiership games. I'm not suggesting we go back to the days of 99 calls or packs milling at each other but a ban for this would be pathetic.
I'm not being partisan either - I'd say the same if the situation was reversed. I also think it's fairly farcical that a player can get banned for 8 weeks for an offence that on the day both the ref and TMO reviewed yet didn't think was worth a card. If rugby loses its physicality then much of what makes the game great will go with it and we'll descend into footballerish name calling and pathetic niggle.
Regardless of what you think Marler's actions or intentions were, he struck a prone player with his fore arm, starting in the chest and finishing in the face. Very simply he struck another player, it's foul play and according to the laws of the game it's a card and a ban.
Yes, you may see worse in every ruck, but when it's caught on camera, and then he's cited for it, it doesn't mean that because it may be common place it isn't an incident that deserves a sanction.
The RBS 6 Nations panel got it wrong. They have got the verbals even more wrong. He said the words, he's admitted it. It was a racist comment and he deserves to have a sit down and think about what he's done. World Rugby will take a look at this and he'll end up with more than 4 weeks.
As for Francis he knew exactly what he was doing. 8 weeks for what he did is too leanient. There should be zero tolerance for hands in the face. As I've said before I was a victim of two gouges. One of which still has an effect on my day to day life 25 years later.
BBS + others
He didn't strike a prone player, he cleared out a player who was very much in play whilst trying to drive his own player over the try line. I don't think we'll agree on this one but I at least am heartened by the decision of the citing committee.
I do agree with you that gouging has no part in the game (and has never been acceptable in any era) and a zero tolerance approach is the right way ahead. That said I'm not convinced it was a deliberate but poorly executed gouge in this case - just looked like a frustrated player trying to grab; admittedly arguably reckless. Either way I think it's inconsistent verging on farcical than an offence that supposedly merits an 8 week ban is reviewed by both ref and TMO during the game who decide it's not worth a yellow. As someone pointed out above had Wales got the extra try - and they were bloody close - then the 8 week ban would have seemed a fairly cheap price to pay...
World Rugby aren't happy about the Marler decision so he may not be out of hot water yet. EJ sending more barbs the way of the WRU.
It's all getting a bit Eastenders!
Isn't it. I like that Eddie Jones is plain speaking and seemingly not media shy, but I think he needs to wind his neck in a little on this one. Saying that the WRU are only upset by the decision to not ban Marler for a racist slur and / or elbowing as a ploy to derail England's grand slam hopes is a bit pathetic and a little niaeve - not really covering himself in glory.
I was gutted when Wales lost, but it was to a better team and was happy to accept it and was hoping England got the grand slam (after all it's been a while and it's good to share your toys). However the ways Jones has been prattling on this week is inspiring me to look for some French branches of the north walian family tree!
It's worth pointing out again, he admitted foul play himself ie striking a player. The citing was also upheld. As I understand it these things can only go to committee if they are red card offences. So it's upheld, but they then let him off as they didn't think it was a red card offence. If that's not confusing what is?
Same as aby other pubishment. Attempts to correct the behaviour of the offender and sends a warning to others who may do the same.
So precisely what happened then? Perpetrator apologised at the first opportunity, demonstrating that he recognised what was wrong about what he said. Warning sent to others through publicity given to the potential sanction for racist abuse.
Job done.
if you really think that level of contact in a ruck / drive for the line should be a citable offence then maybe rugbys not the game for you.
Well it was cited so must have been citable. Wasnt deemed worthy of a red but was certainly deemed foul play. Marler asmitted foul play too. So the player and the citing comittee disagreevwith you. To describe it as a clear out is simply bollocks. It was a cheap shot pure and simple to try and paint it as anything else is just bizare imo.
Zokes, apologising is not a punishment, I am not suprised you dont get that though tbh.
Zokes, apologising is not a punishment
Correct - it's a sign of recognition of fault - a realisation that he's done wrong, and why it could have been hurtful. One of the main steps to rehabilitation. Behaviour apparently on the way to correction. Job done.
If punitive punishment worked, then places with capital punishment would be crime free. They are not. I am actually surprised you don't get this; but as I raised previously - disagreement for disagreement's sake when it comes to me has always been your MO. It's a little sad really.
Slightly related but trying to move things along...
EJ says Mako was always the plan against France for the type of game England want to play. Sounds like BS to me to get the team set up around Mako rather than Marler in case he was unavailable but I'd be interested to know if he does indeed add something special for France? I've never really rated him but am open to being educated 🙂
If punitive punishment worked, then places with capital punishment would be crime free. They are not.
Stretch it to the max straight away why don't you! 😀
But anyway, that statement aside, you appear to be advocating the end of yellow cards, red cards, penalties, any retrospective punishment for incidents missed by the officials on the day? Is that the case?
But anyway, that statement aside, you appear to be advocating the end of yellow cards, red cards, penalties, any retrospective punishment for incidents missed by the officials on the day? Is that the case?
Not at all. However, in this particular instance the perpetrator sought out and apologised to the victim at the earliest opportunity. I'm not suggesting that the potential of a large ban be removed, just that on this occasion it wasn't necessary. It seems the adjudicators agree with me. Needless to said if he were to do it again I suspect a very long ban would be justified.
As you said:
😆Stretch it to the max straight away why don't you!
No way that marker thought about it decided his words were wrong walked to the opposition's changing room, which contains two big props he's passed off, and said sorry.
RFU recognised the severity and marched him down there hoping to take the sting out of the repercussions (as any professional outfit would)
I'm not suggesting that the potential of a large ban be removed
So you're saying that [you think that] punishment does work. Just not in this case. Because he said sorry. (And of course Lee & Gatland said it was just top bantz.)
It seems the adjudicators agree with me.
Appeals to authority notwithstanding, World Rugby are making sounds like they don't (in that they've asked for clarification...I'm not sure that explicitly means they "don't agree", but they'd like to have a look at it again).
[Rugby Laws 10.4 (m) and Regulations 17 & 20 for reference]
If punitive punishment worked, then places with capital punishment would be crime free.
Execution would be a bit harsh in this case.
So are you suggesting any offender should say sorry and all is good? We could empty the prisons and the fat sais could bench for Wales this weekend if we can taxi him over to say soz mate to Cole.
It's a little sad really.
Not as sad as not appearing on this thread until England beat Wales and then talking rubbish like you do as a pathetic attempt to troll.
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Soz! It was just teh megabantz in the heat of the moment! Lolz.
Will he be the first Samoan Knighted?!!
aa Well it was cited so must have been citable. Wasnt deemed worthy of a red but was certainly deemed foul play"
Well he was cited and the RBS Citing committee found it wasn't a citable offence ie not worthy of a red. You're saying that anyone charged with an offence is guilty which clearly isn't the case. We're clearly not going to agree so probably worth moving on.
What do we think of the Francis ban? For me either 2 international referees interpret the laws completely differently from the citing committee when presented with the same information (ie penalty vs red card) or Joubert completly abrogated himself of the responsibility for making a crucial decision on the day. I think this is a slippery slope as it's always easier to kick the can down the road and ask someone else to make a decision and a ban doesn't have the same impact on the team as a card.
or Joubert completly abrogated himself of the responsibility for making a crucial decision on the day.
Not seen him referee before?
Well he was cited and the RBS Citing committee found it wasn't a citable offence ie not worthy of a red.
Eh? If he was cited it was citable surely. Found not to be a red so no ban. It points to the fact it should have been a yellow. They certainly didnt clear him of foul play as you're trying to suggest it should have been. He admitted foul play they found it to be foul play but not worthy of a red or a ban.
Joubert was crap.
Flash - that's a gif I never tire of watching. A part of me does feel that if Ashton and Farrell had played in an era where this was the standard reaction to sly niggle and off the ball stuff they'd have stopped doing it by now...
Tallie - I watched the EngvWAl game on Japanese tv, with live ref link for the whole match. I'm not sure what happened in the uk. For the Francis decision, the discussion between ref/TMO was basically " it looks like a hand on the eye area, but we only have 1 angle, so penalty only, and leave it for the citing officer after the match"
The TMO was the one pushing Joubert to leave it until later, which was piss-poor imho.
Tallie -it was a citable offence, and the citing was upheld ie he was found guilty of striking an oppenent. The only issue is he wasn't banned as for some reason the committee then decided it wasn't deemed a red card which is confusing as these citings are only for possible red cards in the first place.
Scamper - I'm aware of the contradiction. Ultimately the ref on the day and the TMO saw the incident in both real time and slow motion repeatedly and didn't think it worthy of even a penalty. The citing committee then cover themselves in glory by deciding it is a citable offence (ie worthy of a red card) but not deserving a ban because it's not worthy of a red card (and therefore presumably not a red card offence); perhaps they wanted to give fans something to argue about whilst waiting for the final games?
Can anybody find the actual RBS 6 Nations Disciplinary Committee statement as that may (although I doubt it) make things clearer?
Tallie... No point getting all het about the logic of any of this. You have seen the citing process before right?
I've seen it as a player - it's actually gets much worse as you go down the leagues and can involve some machiavellian politics...
It points to the fact it should have been a yellow.
Maestri recieved a "Citing Commissioners Warning" for his cheap shot on Sexton in the Ireland France game , precisely because his actions warranted a yellow card.
That's the equivalent of a retrospective yellow and counts as the same value in totting up towards a 3 yellow ban.
I'd expect them to use the same punishment if they intended to "point to the fact it should have been a yellow".
Scamper - I'm aware of the contradiction. Ultimately the ref on the day and the TMO saw the incident in both real time and slow motion repeatedly and didn't think it worthy of even a penalty.
No, the offence was missed. It wasnt looked at. The idiot who was the video ref was only looking at the try.
The TMO and the ref reviewed the Francis incident. Indeed Joubert called it reckless. To not do something about it then was wrong, since the entire TV watching population knew that it was going to be cited.
I actually thought Joubert had an ok game on Saturday, he was fair with both teams and consistent. But saying that he failed on two big decisions. The red card that should have be shown to Francis and he should have has the question of the Cole 'try' - Any reason not to award? All the pundits in the box at half time knew it was a try - even the Welsh ones!
On that basis - getting the big decisions wrong - he needs to stop doing Internationals. Barnes, Poite, Clancy, Owens, etc all would have be stronger and stop up at the big decisions.
Is the Cole try the one that was grounded short and then rolled along the ground over the line?
No that was Youngs.
Got it - the one where the only clear shot has the ball 6" of the ground. Which doesn't mean it wasn't grounded of course.
Yay U20 Grand Slam good work Wales 😀
France deny a womens grand slam for england as well, portent for tomorrow???
France deny a womens grand slam for england as well, portent for tomorrow???
after eddie jones' cockwombalry in the press this week i hope so. small minded and petty of me, very much so!
So hopefully no one will see through my thinly veiled hopes that England lose, but is anyone starting to feel a bit sorry for the French internatio al team. Lots of good players not given the same time to train together as the other 6 natio s teams. I hope they beat England, we need a strong France in the six natiobs. Alles les blues....is the game today or have I peaked too soon?
. I hope they beat England, we need a strong France in the six natiobs. Alles les blues....is the game today or have I peaked too soon?
Sort of agree but much prefer the thought of hitting rock bottom rather than a rousing finish to paper over the cracks. Come on England
Should be a good afternoon of matches, I only hope I'm still able to see straight by the England kickoff...
Aa - is that true about the French squad time together? Is that due to a lack of a player agreement with the clubs?
I feel EJ is "doing a Mourinho" to take the pressure off the players.
