Aaaaaaaaabsolutely not. Haven't seen anything that would suggest it yet anyway. But I don't think we'll see where Jones really wants to take this team until summer.
This year should be about getting wins, for confidence, and introducing these potentially very good new players, for the experience. That will do for his first season.
So the big question is, are England once again world beaters, after scoring some tries against an Italian defence that did nothing for stereotype?
It's not really the big question, as nobody is realistically asking it. No matter how you slant it, England put a decent scoreline in Rome on an Italian team which France just snuck past in Paris.
If anything, it may [i]just[/i] make amends for Englands frankly dreadful performance was last week and no more.
So the big question is, are England once again world beaters, after scoring some tries against an Italian defence that did nothing for stereotype?
No, we continue to bear the yoke of perennial under performers, not utilising the unique resources available to us, and being lucky to scrape wins against poor opposition. It's a tough life being English. I think we need some therapy after this awful start. It's embarrassing!
I'll take the win and score line against Italy, but it was getting close to squeaky bum time at half time. The Ford / Farrell axis just isn't working and Ford is trying too hard. I've noticed much more this year that he is get man handled in both attack and defence.
Haskell and Robshaw don't complement each other - it should be one or the other plus Kvesic and Billy. It'll be interesting to see if Jones does go after Underhill from the Ospreys for the summer tour. He seems to be getting a lot of praise and looked pretty handy against Exeter a few weeks ago.
I think we need to find / introduce an out and out 12 for the rest of the games especially bearing in mind some of the players that we'll be facing. I think Farrell at 12 is one of the reasons that Ford is getting smashed about so much - a proper centre will offer him far more protection.
The Ireland / France game was tedious - both teams showed very little ambition. Ireland had a massive injury list though and are missing some pretty serious players.
Personally, I think the championship will be won by Wales - they don't seem to be cutting loose like promised but look very effective with pretty solid defence.
Scotland seem to lack a cutting edge and don't have a killer instinct - they did play some good stuff though.
The Wasps / Sarries game was very, very entertaining. Wasps were very good and played with a lot of ambition and speed. Sarries looked massively flat and seemed to really miss their international players (more so than Wasps). I imagine that they'll only get stronger as the pitches start to dry out. A few big upsets this weekend - Worcs came close but like Scotland lack the ability to play for 80 mins.
Farrell is currently miles better than ford. A out and out centre (in my opinion 12s an 13s are interchangeable) would be preferable, but perhaps not for Ford as it should mean that he will sit on the bench.
Yes, this picking players out of position is always a bit odd. At the moment, can't see the F/F partnership being the LT solution.
Ospreys win in Cork, that is a good result 😆
Agreed Wrecker - Ford is out of form for both club and country. He always, when faced with a difficult period, goes to pot, really struggling to achieve the impossible. We won't change for the next match, Fazlet is there and will play at 10. I think that Cipriani, Slade, Manu and that wasps guy would be a far better midfield yes I know it's one person to many, but it does show who's waiting in the wings.
Front 5 look pretty good, amazed that with a malfunctioning lineout, it's all the jumpers fault, where as with Tom Youngs, it's all about the thrower. Nothing like a prejudiced view!
Back row is still poor, really, really need someone who can preoperl fetch, preferably 2 of them. The Hask and Robshaw look good in defence and poor on the ground, as expected.
Subs were very, very good. Gives me hope.....
Back row? I'll have Hughes, Billy and Dave Ewers please. OOF!!!!
Ford is out of form for both club and country. He always, when faced with a difficult period, goes to pot, really struggling to achieve the impossible.
He was forcing passes in the first half that just weren't on - a bit like Saints a while ago which handed them the victory.
Cips must be pretty cheesed off because he's had another good season behind a so-so pack.
Back row? I'll have Hughes, Billy and Dave Ewers please. OOF!!!!
Lots of power and ball carrying but lacks a proper openside. If the rumours are true, I think we'll see Underhill in there fairly soon.
But Imagine the devastation!!!
I do hope you are right mindmap, it seems Jones is far more open to blooding new talent than previous coaches.
Can't disagree with that longer post mindmap besides the Wales winning part. I think England will win for some reason. The rugby is rubbish but I can feel it building (plus Home to Wales and Wales' earlier draw are huge).
Ford may be out of form but Farrell beside him is just compounding things as you say. He is basically a extra pass between 9 and 10 (Farrell). What is the point of Ford if he isn't doing any 10 type stuff? I do wonder if the EJ selection of Farrell at 12 is a temporary appeasment of Farrell Snr. while secretly hoping he gets properly smashed against some of the monster centres to come for the last laugh 😀
I think Jones is trying to turn Farrell into Giteau Mk II - despite Giteau being more talented. Trouble is as soon as he's back at Sarries, he'll be back to 10 where he plays best.
We do seem to struggle for 12's and 7's - there seems to be lots of options in other positions but not many for these two. Hill from Exeter is a bit of a bosh merchant but I think he would have been worth a shout at least in the short term.
The summer tour will be interesting - the likes of Haskell, Robshaw, Cole etc will have played a lot of rugby and will be shot to pieces and will need a rest. Is that when we'll see a few more bolters in the team?
Underhill is a serious talent. England would be wise to cap him early before Wales bag him! 🙂
I think there is a bit of a hang up on what certain positions should or shouldn't be doing (e.g. 7 should play like a "7") when just doing the basics at times would suffice regardless of shirt number. As I said before, there were several times when the backrow just needed to pick the ball up but the basic skills and decision making were poor. Billy got the idea late on but Robshaw and Haskell didn't need to do much at times to win turnover ball as it was often unchallenged at their feet!
Underhill is a serious talent. England would be wise to cap him early before Wales bag him!
I don't think they can. As a student, his address is that of his parents so does not count towards residency years so they'd need him to remain in wales for 3 years after uni.
Welsh nan!
Not sure he is the fetcher you need. Good player but more of the same as far as England goes.
Welsh nan!
Aye I thought this was the case too, I read somewhere he had said that (and I'm paraphrasing) 'he will make that decision if/when he has to'. Sensible lad.
in my opinion 12s an 13s are interchangeable)
In theory, but history tends to say otherwise.
In theory, but history tends to say otherwise.
Perhaps I should rephrase. An excellent 12 will be a good 13 and vice-versa. Nonu could play either to international standard.
I see no reason that Slade in particular wouldn't be a brilliant 12, considering how good he is at both 13 and 10.
I think that Cipriani, Slade, Manu and that wasps guy would be a far better midfield
Am I the only person that thinks the whole Manu worship is starting to sound a little like the Welsh Henson worship of a few years ago?
Manu is off injured (again) and has not been outstanding in an England (since 2012 anyway) shirt nor in a Lions shirt.
The whole chop & change we want Cipriane, no Burns, no... whoever's flavour of the week at fly-half & centre seems to move against building a team.
Now remind me how did our centre's perform in the last world-cup?
Was the criticism that we kept chopping and changing partnerships?
...Of course silly me, why would EJ not listen to 000's of armchair coaches.
Did England impress in their over-ambition & trying too hard against Italy - not really. Did any of the other 6N teams impress...nah.
If you've got a squad for a 6N championship should you stick with them and try to get them better OR swap 'em everytime the wind blows?
It reminds me of Stuart Barnes bleating about Will Carling at centre in the 90's. I think he's still bleating now the [@^- 😈
Welsh nan!Aye I thought this was the case too, I
I have no idea to be honest. But its worked before
If a player isn't performing, he should be dropped to the bench. The team previously has had considerable criticism with not changing things which were not working and quite rightly so.
There is a 6N squad which includes Devoto, Manu and Daly, and EJ should be free to select whoever he thinks will perform from that pool of players.
The whole chop & change
If it works, sure keep everything the same but you have to find those players first. None of the combinations were world class so finding alternatives is sensible.
Manu stuff probably is living in the past a bit but he's the only properly ugly centre England have who is potentially capable of more than just defense. Lets not forget he also punched Ashton which has to be worth something
I'm not a huge fan of trying to fit someone else's model either. The whole "Farrell could be like Giteau" or "Manu and Slade could be like Nonu and Smith" type approach doesn't make the most of the players you actually do have and their individual abilities (or not!). The team needs some identity
Manu was / is great when on song but brings his own issues - i.e. flies out of the defensive line looking for the big hit. I think he needs a run of games to get back to full fitness / form before winning any more caps.
I'm not a huge fan of trying to fit someone else's model either. The whole "Farrell could be like Giteau" or "Manu and Slade could be like Nonu and Smith" type approach doesn't make the most of the players you actually do have and their individual abilities (or not!). The team needs some identity
Agreed - we need to select the combinations that work well for us and develop a style / identity from there.
I think the general idea though, that sticking with players and developing them, has to be better than constantly rolling the dice.
Take Wales for example, as was pointed out before they have more caps than a Dutch contraceptive factory. This is out of necessity due to less depth, but even if some of the most experienced players are not the worlds best, they are mostly damn fine and any NH team would have them. Not all of that is nature, lots of it is nurture..
In fact records show that Wales approach is equally and mostly better than Englands, Gatland has made more of his lot than we ever have, and arguably most of that success is due to lack of choice..
ooh I like it - You're shit which is why you'll get better...!
In fairness, and if you look back through my posts, you'll see I'm an utter Tuilagi fanboy, way back in 2001 when the big brother Freddy came across to Leicester, then watched in awe as a set of brothers became so utterly brilliant - damn near a team by themselves. Now there's the first son in the Leicester academy, that's astonishing.
I think Ford can be good, its just, at the moment, he's clearly not. However, should he be dropped due to this, I suspect not as that's going to knock him further. Christ knows what's happened to the Bath lot, although JJ looked to be full of beans by the end of Sunday.
Anyway, thanks to this thread I watched the Wasps demolition of Saracens. That was an enjoyable couple of hours. Premiership now looking really, really tight. Good for the game!
Cipriani back to Wasps from next year,why isn't he in the England squad THIS year?
Whanau?
Huge blow to lose Cipriani he really is outstanding and he will be sorely missed. I dont know what the lure of Wasps is (we lost Taylor even though he was offered more money to stay) Millar, Myall and Gaskell dont seem to have done their England prospects any good moving from Sale but for Danny it is possibly also the chance to move South.
surfer - Member
Huge blow to lose Cipriani he really is outstanding and he will be sorely missed. I dont know what the lure of Wasps is (we lost Taylor even though he was offered more money to stay) Millar, Myall and Gaskell dont seem to have done their England prospects any good moving from Sale but for Danny it is possibly also the chance to move South.
Top flight euro rugby? The possibility of challenging for the AP?
Sale are a pretty good side, but those things aren't going to happen anytime soon. It'll be interesting to see how game time is split between him, Gopperth and Jackson.
I'd like to see Cips in the England squad again because he's in great form and does seem to have matured as a player. He's worked hard on his game and does seem to have developed and shown commitment to the national team by staying put and not chasing a big pay check. Which is more admirable given how badly (imo) he was treated by Lancaster. From the outside it seemed like he asnt trusted / liked but given additional caps from th bench to keep him in the AP just in case.
I dont know what the lure of Wasps is
Creative accounting around the salary cap.
Isn't Pocock heading to Wasps too?
Can see them putting a decent challenge for silverware together with the squad they're building.
May be an alien concept for an Ospreys? Fan. 😉
May be an alien concept for an Ospreys? Fan.
Silverware? Building a squad?
I dont recognise the words, never mind the concepts.
EJ doesn't seem to be a fan...
Jones was much cooler on the international prospects of Sale's Danny Cipriani, whom he described as "a long way away" from an England recall.The 28-year-old fly-half, who last week announced he will rejoin Wasps next season, made his England debut in 2008 but has only amassed 14 caps.
"Danny needs to play well. There's no use talking to the press about it. You've got to dominate club rugby and show all the skills of a Test player," Jones said.
"He's not good enough to be in the squad at the moment. We have two outstanding 10s in Owen Farrell and George Ford.
"To beat those two, Danny has a long way to go, but he's a capable player. It's a matter of how hard he wants to work at his game."
He is playing Ford into a cocked hat every week...Hell, I decided to get a packet of wine gums when in for milk yesterday,that is more assertive and decisive than Ford has been all season.
Wow, that's pretty scathing. Cips has shown far more form this year in a side that don't really dominate the opposition so he's not getting an armchair rid from his pack. He surely will go on the summer your because Ford and Farrell will be shagged after a very, very long season.
Ford was very good this time last year, but he's having a massive wobble after a very fine break through year.
Cips 2nd best 10 in the Prem IMO. Ford a distant 3rd although I would be happier with him than his brother who is struggling for us.
I reckon that due to a series of previous events, Danny's card is marked WRT England. Of the stories I have heard, he really did behave like a complete dickhead. Long time ago, but the old farts hold onto that shit.
Cipriani back to Wasps from next year,why isn't he in the England squad THIS year
Because of the reasons Jones gave in Telegrapgh, he's not good enough, he's not at the right level.
So Cips thank you to Sale is to comment, "once a Wasp always a Wasp". Very classy eh, how to thank the club the saved your @rse after you where a bust in Australia ?
Jones has the England team right, Ford starting at 10 and a spot for Farrell given injuries elsewhere. When all are fit Farrell will be the backup 10.
@wrecker he crashed his car and was arrested on suspicion of drink drivng at 3am in the run up to the world cup. The irony is he crashed into an Uber taxi, he should have been in a taxi not behind the wheel. He does not have the right mental qualities to be a sports person at the highest levels.
Thats an interesting viewpoint,mostly just shared by you and Eddie,especially with regards to how they are both playing just now.
Jones has the England team right, Ford starting at 10 and a spot for Farrell given injuries elsewhere. When all are fit Farrell will be the backup 10.
What?
On current form, if there were a fit 12, Ford will be lucky to be on the bench.
