This morning on BBC breakfast news they were interviewing Mark Harper - Transport Secretary.
He was explaining with the straightest face I've seen for a while, the proposals for trying to make life easier for drivers. He wants to abolish the 20 mph limits (we have one through our small town) except for school areas. He doesn't want to see in England what's happened in Wales.
Aaaarrrgghhh.
It's all over the Scottish borders. It just means folk drive at 25-30.
What do we want, safer communities,
when do we want it, only when it doesn't affect our perceived freedom to drive fast because we can't leave 5 minutes earlier
I must have misheard the really poor interview then, I thought he had said he wouldn't reverse the existing 20s but they wouldn't be pushing for any sort of blanket 20 zones. With the dire interview skills of Charlie Stayt, the time delay and a tory minister on the end of said time delay....it was poor to say the least.
We recently went 'cycle touring' through Northern France. Mostly along the coast and in rural areas. The French drivers were considerate in the main and took time and space to overtake us. But what really stood out was that many were driving quite small cars eg Renault Clio.
We got back home and I was reminded how ridiculously large most of our cars are. The drivers aren't always considerate and don't make an effort to overtake safely let alone with 1.5 metres.
Our own small town is up in arms as the council plans to (hopefully) make it more cycle and pedestrian friendly. The animosity against cyclists has been sickening.
Brussels has been 30kph (about 20mph) for a year or 2 now and we were just noting yesterday not only how much nicer to ride in but how much nicer to drive in it was. We can't even imagine how horrible it was to ride in 50kph traffic and that's only 32mphish.
Netherlands has 20 mph limit in urban areas as default. Also in 20 mph limits pedestrians and cyclists have priority over cars. Limits only go higher if there is a decent segregation of cars and bikes. No room for a segregated cycle lane? 20mph with pedestrian and cycle priority
The French drivers were considerate in the main and took time and space to overtake us.
Whereas just on this mornings quick 10 mile loop I had 3 dangerous passes - two right before blind corners and one into an oncoming car.
Never understood why rural roads where pedestrians have to walk in the carriageway are NSL.
Surely if there's no pavement it should automatically mean 20mph
Kerley - You'll never get everyone to comply with the Highway code or be considerate. There will always be one dangerous 'cockwomble' in any country.
what really stood out was that many were driving quite small cars eg Renault Clio.
We got back home and I was reminded how ridiculously large most of our cars are.
Yup, noticed this too. Sweeping generalisation is sweeping but... Europeans seem to see cars more as an appliance, Brits see them more as a status symbol.
I saw the interview - he very much did not say that any existing 20mph zones would be removed or that local authorities could not implement new 20mph zones where "sensible to do so". Basically it's an announcement of nothing to create an impression Tories are pro-motorist (another meaningless phrase)and to create an opportunity to say look at Wales - Labour did that. Just fodder for Mail and Express
Sounded like another 7 bin announcement to me. They are banning (future?) blanket 20 mph bans. Mark Harper seemed to be pushing this idea that all 30mph limits in Wales are now 20mph
We got back home and I was reminded how ridiculously large most of our cars are.
That's because most people don't realise they're probably almost as equally American as they are English*. American culture saturates our land through the media and corporations and business culture. It sets our aspirations. Whereas the French... will always be French!
If you want a big car go live in a big country, please.
*says the Englishman who's never even Bern to America to experience their culture first hand.
There’s an article in the Guardian today about parents campaigning for safer streets. There’s some demonstrations today in various places, part of a campaign called “safe streets now”. “Brake” is another campaign group worth looking up, formed after the unnecessary death of a woman caused by a lorry going too fast with faulty brakes. I was in charge of first attendance at the scene of that “accident”. Perhaps if graphic images of the death and injuries on our roads were in the papers more instead of sanitised photos from a distance then it might help? Cigarette packets have graphic pictures on them, why not pictures to accompany vehicle adverts?
Anyway, on a positive note, I’ve re-joined Cycling UK and I’m re-joining the local campaign group. Also, going to batter my MP toady Rowley with letters.
North East Derbyshire District Council are introducing Public Place Protection orders as part of an interesting campaign against speeding, dangerous driving and nuisance driving.
Campaigning might help, anything to stop the average of five deaths a day on our roads?
I honestly hope the tories are out. war on motorist shit and talking about cutting taxes whilst services are failing.
20s have been rolled out across our city, the frothing has been ridiculous and now this will just add to the idiots that are refusing to slow down. it'll give them another justification to just ignore it. and it's not like many people are actually doing 20. they are now doing 30ish instead of 40+. so it's slower and nicer but it's not 20.
I truly hope it will be like seatbelts, drink driving, mobile phone use and will just become the norm for most reasonable people.
just saw a guy in a van, on his mobile overtaking in a 20. it's these types that need to be having their licenses taken away. assuming they even have one
rant over
Trouble with the government of the day turning it into a political issue and actively campaigning against it is that it just gives the idiots permission and justification to defy it long after this shower of shite have been thrown out of office.
Sweeping generalisation is sweeping but… Europeans seem to see cars more as an appliance, Brits see them more as a status symbol.
most people don’t realise they’re probably almost as equally American as they are English*. American culture saturates our land through the media and corporations and business culture. It sets our aspirations. Whereas the French… will always be French!
If you want a big car go live in a big country, please.
I think this is quite romantic about our equally car-brained cousins across La Manche. Half of all new cars are SUVs across the EU, and that's pretty much identical to the UK, for example.
https://www.acea.auto/figure/new-passenger-cars-by-segment-in-eu/
Parish council sent a ballot round for our 20mph. Three options, leave at 30, 20 just outside the primary school/shop or 20 everywhere. Overwhelming support for 20 everywhere.
We have one of those smiley face speeds detectors that gets moved around the village. The data from that showed 300 readings over 55mph and the highest was 70. In a village, with narrow/no pavements, primary school and people on bikes, walking, animals etc.
I hadn't realised how much of Manchester side roads are 20, mainly as I cycle to work. Having driven in Wales alot recently, I don't see any issue with 20 in built up areas. If anything, traffic is flowing better.
Surely if there’s no pavement it should automatically mean 20mph
While I'm all for 20mph where appropriate, applying it to all rural roads is just harmful to rural life...
Harmful to rural life in what way? Have to get up five up minutes earlier?
I saw an awful lot of ex 'rural life' squashed on the roadside when I was out on my bike on Monday. A 20mph limit wouldn't be harmful for them.
tbh as a cyclist knowing I'm less likely to be mowed down by a range rover going 60 down a narrow lane would be quite nice. a few close calls where the car had to slam the anchors on and pull in because someone was coming the other way. Once forcing me off the road and into the hedging
It is just another wedge issue for an ever more desperate Government.
Thats interesting politecamera. Certainly my impression was of far less SUVs in both France and Spain
Next they will come for bicycles on bridleways
While I’m all for 20mph where appropriate, applying it to all rural roads is just harmful to rural life…
I agree.
As soon as you get outside of any of the villages around here, you are on B roads, with NSL.
If this was dropped to 20mph getting around would be very slow, I'm not talking about 1 or 2 mile journeys but some 15 - 20 miles.
I'm all for current 30mph limits to be dropped to 20 mph.
I don’t think anyone would sensibly argue that rural roads should be 20s. But equally, the NSL on unclassified roads could be reduced to, say, 40 without causing too many problems as frankly you can’t go much faster than that safely on a lot of them.
(I’m sure there was a consultation a while back that was broadly in favour of this, but like pavement parking got sat on)
I must be in the minority but I find 20 zones much more dangerous for cycling. I'm going along at 15-18mph and a car is creeping past, as soon as their front wheels are past me they start swerving back across, especially if something is coming the other way, meaning I have to brake to not to be flattened. Other times they overtake when I'm on a slight incline then I'm stuck behind constantly braking on the flat/downhill. In 30s the cars go past and are gone and I'm safe being nowhere near them.
I also think cycle lanes can be bad. Drivers make no effort to give you 1.5m space because you are in "your lane" even though a lot are too narrow and you have to swerve out of them to dodge the pot holes. Don't get me started on cycle lanes that are shared with pedestrians then end and you have to filter back onto the road anyway!
DT78
Free MemberI honestly hope the tories are out. war on motorist shit and talking about cutting taxes whilst services are failing.
I don't especially care what the talking points are tbh, it's more that so much of it is just absolute fiction. This is all about spinning the Welsh change into something it isn't, and using that to create a completely false "we are fixing this" message about something that doesn't exist. Like someone else said it's the same as the 7 bins and all the other "we will prevent things that aren't happening".
Grizzly - control the overtakes - ride primary until its safe to let them past. for me the 20 mph zones have meant far less unsafe overtakes as folk seem more patient to sit behind
cycle lanes are often unfit for purpose. I often do not use them or on a road with the painted bit along the edge I still ride 1M minimum from the kerb unless i am crawling uphill
I really don't know what the fuss is about. 20mph around built up areas or outside schools etc is surely the right thing to do? How much extra would it really put on a journey, a minute or two?
most people don’t realise they’re probably almost as equally American as they are English
As someone with an American spouse and consequently large American extended family, and who has spent a lot of time there talking to people in their home environment I can assure you this is absolutely not the case.
The French drivers were considerate in the main and took time and space to overtake us.
Most French drivers are considerate of cyclists and drive ok but the small number of bad drivers in France are truly horrifying. If you've seen the Jean Luc Besson film Taxi - like that. Driving on the absolute limit through traffic or on country roads with foot to the boards and close tolerances. We saw this several times a day when we used to go there in the.90s, I assumed maybe it had softened a bit but I saw a fair few when I went there as an adult.
As I've previously recounted on here - when doing bike hire we regularly had folk from all over Europe taking bikes out for day trips and for longer tours - GGW, NC500, Outer Hebrides and so on. Without any prompting they almost always commented on how considerate UK drivers were compared to their local experiences.
20 MPH zones don't make a jot of difference as the throbbers just ignore it and there's no one to enforce it. See also no parking outside schools etc etc etc.
They do when it's busy as it only takes one person to adhere to it and everyone else is forced to and they can't overtake
Scotroutes - there is a huge difference between the highlands and england on this IME. In the highlands the worst overtakes I got were from German motorcyclists. Riding around in England I found aggressive overtakes common - central scotland somewhere between the two
Oceanskipper - the early data from Wales shows a reduction in speeds and IME in Edinburgh 20 mph limits make a huge difference mainly in that most car drivers are prepared to wait longer before they overtake and in a significant reduction in speeds overall.
I would say here that the majority of drivers are at least paying some attention to the 20 mph limits driving at well below 30 mph. sure the idiots ignore them but the majority have slowed down
@tjagain - I largely agree but you'd think that the NC500 in particular was a death trap going by many of the posts in here. It was more that these cyclists seemed to be experiencing poor driving in their home countries too.
Different sorts of poor driving? In Ireland I got no aggressive overtakes but on a couple of occasions cars tried to pass where they could not see far enough and had to emergency stop before going head on into a car coming the other way - all while leaving me plenty of room.
I can't think of any in France or Spain but I was mainly on cycleways or tiny roads
I did avoid cities tho which would give a different impression I am sure apart from cycling around Amsterdam which is totally unnerving as other cyclists will pass with mm of space and cars can be quite close as well - but not the aggressive deliberate close pass but just they are all used to having less space than I want and am used to!
Fair enough - doesn’t seem like that round where I live but I haven’t seen any data to support my statement. I suspect in busy areas it does make a difference as Molgrips says. Thinking about it I often end up with someone close behind when I slow down for a 20.
Harmful to rural life in what way? Have to get up five up minutes earlier?
There's some rural areas where you could drive for 20 or 30 miles (and more) - restricting blanket to 20mph means a significant increase in time to get between places to commute, get to school, deliver the post etc. I'm of the opinion that in most rural places I visit in Scotland that drivers are aware, make good judgement and polite - and to encourage this culture would be a better approach than more signs and restrictions.
I do agree that there should be some more cautious speed limits than a binary 20mph and NSL.
Rural NSL is for the driver to decide what is safe I think, as it would cost a fortune to review everywhere. And nearly impossible to enforce.
Drove 15 miles to town on the lanes yesterday. No pavement, all NSL, so you could drive like a rally stage at 60 everywhere, but you don't. Came round a bend on the way back and me and a tractor/trailer had to emergency stop, but I was doing less than 20mph anyway. Idiot 20-something me would have been going quicker and probably had a head on.
