piemonster - MemberRegards MOD spending, I've kind of got the impression that Whitehall has been winding down in Scotland more than south of the wall already. Due to just have the one RAF base for instance.
two army hubs, multiple naval bases, one RAF station more than the NorthWest has currently
[quote=big_n_daft ]
the split of the budget isn't balanced in terms of where it is spent, there would be a significant rebalancing towards E, W and NI of the remaining 90%
You'd like to think so ...... I guess things like airbases are more related to strategic location - hence the East Coast has loads.
Indeed, think of all the lovely cash a nuclear weapons base on the Thames would bring in.
True about Alan Hansen. Lets not have him as our first prime minister/president.
Well, the last Scots Govt figures i looked at showed that the gap between what Scotland raised in taxation and what she spent was approx 3.5 times the oil revenue, so the loss of the Scots taxes may not affect the MOD budget that much. Was a while back now though.
I've passed two RAF bases on my way down to Scarborough from Scotch corner big n daft, pretty sure there's a very large army training base on the road over from Penrith to Scotch corner too,there's also pretty big gun range near Carlisle too isn't there- believe they shoot tank shells into the water a lot- although I accept that may be run by contractors..
How many airbases in the whole of Scotland is there going to be in the next few years if govt plans go ahead? Of course, in the next few years Russia might start chucking more backfires about above the North Sea again and perhaps that decision might need reviewed!
Not getting into a shooting match (groan) about it, I don't claim to have specific answers to the question I posed above either!
You'd like to think so ...... I guess things like airbases are more related to strategic location - hence the East Coast has loads.
they will need something at Carlisle to intercept the cessna's Alex sends south to test E,W and NI airspace like Putin does
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21364559
http://forces.2day.ws/forces/section/ArmyBasesGarrisons/
Quite a few at the mo based in Yorkshire in the above list..? Appreciate that'll be changing though..
I don't think Yorkshire counts as the North West...
I've passed two RAF bases on my way down to Scarborough from Scotch corner big n daft,
do you need a compass and a map of the UK?
pretty sure there's a very large army training base on the road over from Penrith to Scotch corner too,
That's Warcop, it's small and has no permanent garrison
there's also pretty big gun range near Carlisle too isn't there- believe they shoot tank shells into the water a lot- although I accept that may be run by contractors.
never heard of it, it's not a base used by those in uniform
.
How many airbases in the whole of Scotland is there going to be in the next few years if govt plans go ahead?
more than currently in the NW of England
Of course, in the next few years Russia might start chucking more backfires about above the North Sea again and perhaps that decision might need reviewed!
my understanding is that the SNP plans do not include air superiority fast jet for their airforce
two army hubs, multiple naval bases, one RAF station more than the NorthWest has currently
Faslane is a decent sized slab of concrete. Not actually aware of any others for boats??
Prestwick is a single Sea King? How long does that gave left, not long.
Rosyth is.... Actually what the hell is Rosyth?
Rosyth is a Royal Naval Reserve base and Supply/Service base
My very bad- I was getting my west and east mixed up- still, north is north eh? Guessing we've not traditionally been worried about the north west of england being overflown by our enemies!
My comments about policy reviews were assuming that Scotland says no and current mod plans are pushed ahead btw..
Is Rosyth not just a big repair and maintenance port really?
With regards to the firing range- you've not heard of it? Really? Like I said though- prob run by private contractors these days eh?
I can't wait till we don't have to pay for the new trident and any further wars in the Middle East.
Faslane is a decent sized slab of concrete
don't forget the satellite sites
[quote=althepal ]
With regards to the firing range- you've not heard of it? Really? Like I said though- prob run by private contractors these days eh?
Are you not thinking of the one in Galloway that fires all the DU shells into the Solway?
Once again I must apologise profusely, the range is close to Kirkcudbright in Scotland!
Once again, my very bad for not being overly familiar with the local geography!
Edit- cheers Scotroutes- I was just googling that- honest!
I believe I did state earlier that I was no expert in these matters?
My very bad- I was getting my west and east mixed up- still, north is north eh?
you aren't helping yourself 😉
I'm not really trying to be honest! It's been a long day-but my poorly researched (googled) attempts at building a constructive argument mustn't detract from the overall imbalance in mod spending in Scotland compared to England overall eh?
mustn't detract from the overall imbalance in mod spending in Scotland compared to England overall eh?
Scottish independance will lead to a larger MoD spend in the north of England
many will see that as a bonus
I can understand how that would make a lot of folk happy in the area..
The east or the west though...? 🙂
If we do become independent it won't be my taxes being spent!
(Point about imbalance still valid though- without wanting to get into a North/south of England debate!)
athgray - MemberDo we think we made our best decisions at 16?
I think a significant part of the electorate can be trusted to make uninformed decisions, regardless of age.
The "Kids will vote for independence" thing is actually pretty interesting- as Scotroutes mentioned, independent surveys consistently show it's not true. Some suggest that they lean slightly more towards Yes, though that's a consistent age trend- 30 year olds are more likely to vote yes than 40 year olds, and so on. No shock, we grow more resistant to change and value comfort more as we age.
Why that's interesting, is that this isn't a shock to the SNP either, they've always known that the youth vote isn't a Yes vote. Now maybe they expect to swing that vote... Or, maybe they just think it's the right thing to do. Education's a political football, youth unemployment is soaring... And if you're a 16-year-old in work, then you have taxation without representation. Who has a bigger stake in the future than the ones who have the most future left?
By all means leave school, join the army, have sex, get married, go to prison, leave home, drive, but for god's sake don't vote!
I wonder what the British government will do with all that extra money that they used to use to subsidise Scotland once we leave.
* s****s *
Yay, less spending on the military in an independent Scotland. Let's call it 'bread not bombs'.
I'm not really trying to be honest! It's been a long day-but my poorly researched (googled) attempts at building a constructive argument mustn't detract from the overall imbalance in mod spending in Scotland compared to England overall eh?
You need to Google better - there is actually a significant defence underspend in Scotland per head of population - Scots are effectively subsidising English defence spending by about £1bn per year.
http://www.defencemanagement.com/feature_story.asp?id=16821
bawbag - MemberYay, less spending on the military in an independent Scotland. Let's call it '[s]bread[/s] [b]deep fried mars bars[/b] not bombs'.
IGMC 😉
Just as it starts getting sensible again eh?
Not wishing to start a flame war, but has there actually been a decision from the EU about what happens if Scotland becomes independent?
No, it's a unique situation. However it's pretty unlikely that they would strip EU citizenship from several million citizens. Also, if Scotland suddenly gets kicked out of the EU, why should the rest of the UK automatically stay in?
EU membership isn't really a set of rules - well it is, but they bend or break the rules all the time, so it's really a negotiation. The question really is why would the EU not want an independent Scotland to be a member?
However it's pretty unlikely that they would strip EU citizenship from several million citizens.
No different that stripping several million people of British citizenship, no?
Also, if Scotland suddenly gets kicked out of the EU, why should the rest of the UK automatically stay in?
The rest of the UK is not the part becoming independent, and is not the part that would have to renegotiate. I think the term is "continuing state".
There seems to be bafflingly little certainty around this seeing as it's possibly going to be the most important issue for a newly independent Scotland. A bit of googling found this, which is as clear as mud:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21601242
However, the EU president's 'hypothetical' comments make it pretty clear that there would be no free ride. Scotland's response is downright worrying - hoping for common sense to prevail!
Also, it's not that unique a situation - take a look at the Basque country. I suspect that at least Spain would be pretty wary about Scottish independence and admission to the EU setting a precedent.
The real question is what name the remainder of the current UK would have.
It can't be UK because there's only one kingdom* left.
It can't be Great Britain because it's only half the island.
Londonitania?
Edit: forgot the Kingdom of Man
The whole "continuing state" thing is problematic - if Scotland is a new state not a continuing state, then we would inherit none of the national debt. New country, start from scratch. I can't see that being popular. The only other possibility is both countries are continuing states, so on an equal footing regards the EU.
By unique, I mean it's not happened before - it might set a precedent for Basque independence, but there's no precedent for this, apart from maybe the separation of Czechoslovakia.
The real question is what name the remainder of the current UK would have.
Little Britain.
As a southern Englishman I'd be sad to see the union broken, but perhaps its just sentimentality. I totally accept the argument that many Scots feel that it's not right that London governs their affairs. I reckon if I was Scottish I'd vote yes.
I think the future for the whole island could be defined by this vote, I hope that, whatever the result is, those on the losing side are able to accept and live with the decision.
Our two country's past, present and future are woven together, I hope that isn't overlooked by nationalist attitudes and policies from both sides of the border.
Indeed - think of the still strong relationships between most countries of the Commonwealth. Even with independence, Scotland would still be very closely linked to the rest of the UK.
I don't think the "continuing state" will be a problem in real life.
There's lots of points that can be made, eg Scotland has always been treated as a separate entity, there has been a recognised border since before Union, it has always had a separate legal system amongst others.
And in fact technically, thanks to Margaret Ewing, the Scottish parliament is a continuation of the parliament that was dissolved in 1707.
The whole "continuing state" thing is problematic - if Scotland is a new state not a continuing state, then we would inherit none of the national debt. New country, start from scratch. I can't see that being popular. The only other possibility is both countries are continuing states, so on an equal footing regards the EU.
It is quite conceivable that negotiations between Westminster and Scotland result in domestic affairs being separated with resources and debts being shared, whilst the EU itself still considers Scotland to be a new entity. I can't see any logical reason why the treaty of separation between the rest of the UK and Scotland would have any mandatory impact on the EU's decision regarding Scotland's accession. I can see that it might have impact, but I think it's highly unlikely that Scotland will be 'just let in' on the basis that it's dealing with its share of the UK's sovereign debt and assets.
Ultimately how assets and debts get shared is between Westminster and Holyrood, whereas entry into the EU is between Holyrood and Brussels. Two different issues, which might have some relation on each other, but I don't think a certain outcome on one equates to a certain outcome on the other.
A more pertinent question is will the rest of the UK still be in the EU in a few years? With the rise of UKIP and Cameron's in/out referendum, perhaps the best way for Scotland to stay in the EU is independence.
A more pertinent question is will the rest of the UK still be in the EU in a few years?
It's an important question, yes, but just a distraction to the discussion at hand. One for its own thread, perhaps?
Relevant in the context of The discussion though!
The position of the EU is that they will only give a definitive answer if asked to by the UK government
David Cameron has ruled this out. Why would he do that if he thought it would provide ammunition for the No campaign?
Cos he's feart?
I didn't know that, interesting... It is one of the elephants in the room isn't it, lots of people have opinions, even official ones but it's the sort of thing that you should be able to get a solid answer on.