[Closed] 100 euros a week for a mtb guide job?

Was the 100 Euros with a bike provided or using your own?

I remember seeing climbing jobs where they paid a pittance and expected the guide to provide their own ropes for the clients to trash...

Is there no minimum wage legislation where you want to work?

EDIT: Italy? Seems not.

Maybe try and find some work in France where it's around €9.50 ish.

DD I suspect that living costs might meant that minimum wage figure you've quoted may not apply?

DD I suspect that living costs might meant that minimum wage figure you've quoted may not apply?

Yeah, sorry...possibly hasty answer and talking out of my arse (nothing new there then...) 🙂

Supply and demand?

At last, I've pwned DD.

*amends "Big Hitting" spreadsheet*

😆

I'm bent in two man! Never have I felt more pwned.

Seems about right, full board and lodging plus probably a bike to ride. The other holiday companies eg ski or summer beach resrorts would be about the same. The €100 is pocket money.

I forgot to mention, these were companies run by brits. And no, not in Italy.

Plus you get to keep tips from the clients, which would be > 100 Euros / week if you're good.

Was the 100 Euros with a bike provided or using your own?

No, own bike

 

You don't do these jobs for the money. Same goes for pretty much any job in the outdoor industry

No, own bike

Bit tough then. Most companies I've been with provide the guide's bikes for them (and spares etc).

You don't do these jobs for the money. Same goes for pretty much any job in the outdoor industry

I understand you don't do this jobs for money, but with a group of 10 people paying 700 euros for a week I find there could be a bit more in for the guides. No?
A part from that, I have enough friends who are ski and mountain bike guides that actually make a good living with it. As I said some companies offer quite good money, I just don't understand the massive gaps.

I got an application from a guy who was getting a basic pay but the company he was working for charged him for food and accommodation. At the end of the week he had to give them money. It's wrong. The first time you find yourself on the hill with someone with a broken leg you will know how much of a responsible job it is. I pay my guides properly and I expect them to do a proper job, they don't mess about, the don't treat it as a holiday for themselves and they get paid for it. It's not going to buy them a Ferrari but it is a proper, legal wage.

You get the other side though. I charge 50€ a day for day guiding and every year I get people telling me its too expensive. I had a group of four tell me it was a rip off because they "could get a ski guide for that", how do you even respond to that?

Lots of other holiday companies pay properly too, having spoken to some of them about it. Like others say its not a job you do for money but similarly there should be a compensation attached to the responsibility, no?

Maybe it's best for me to keep my mouth shut on things this close to home but its something I feel strongly about.

Ski guides charge 350 Euros + a day in France, but then they're unionised, which ensures they all make a decent living from it.

And also sorry, I wrote 5 days, but it was 6 days guiding.

I got an application from a guy who was getting a basic pay but the company he was working for charged him for food and accommodation. At the end of the week he had to give them money. It's wrong. The first time you find yourself on the hill with someone with a broken leg you will know how much of a responsible job it is. I pay my guides properly and I expect them to do a proper job, they don't mess about, the don't treat it as a holiday for themselves and they get paid for it. It's not going to buy them a Ferrari but it is a proper, legal wage.

You get the other side though. I charge 50€ a day for day guiding and every year I get people telling me its too expensive. I had a group of four tell me it was a rip off because they "could get a ski guide for that", how do you even respond to that?

Lots of other holiday companies pay properly too, having spoken to some of them about it. Like others say its not a job you do for money but similarly there should be a compensation attached to the responsibility, no?

Maybe it's best for me to keep my mouth shut on things this close to home but its something I feel strongly about.

I couldn't agree more with you. And please don't get me wrong, I am not after money, I just think it is important to treat this as a proper job.

From working in travel, up to 50% of the €700 would be for B&B accommodation, probably up to €50 to €100 for evening meals, €100 for the guide, VAT €60 leaving €90 - €140 gross margin (profit, admin and vehicle expenses to come out of this). The VAT figure based on the HMRC margin scheme.

I was being paid 30 euros a day from a hotel for guiding groups,Southern Spain. No accommodation and own bike.

The owner asked if I could do it cheaper as he wanted to get more bookings.I jacked it in.

Can you go freelance and set your own day rates? If you have the qualifications, skills and languages would there not be enough continuity of work to sustain you over a season covering jobs when demand/opportunity arose among all the different guiding companies?

footflaps - Member

Bit tough then. Most companies I've been with provide the guide's bikes for them (and spares etc).

I know, 16 euros a day?

It's pretty pish IMO! I've known some to get good wages. But mainly rubbish.

As an aside, Cynic_Al your meant to be strathpuffering! Get off here!

Sandwich - Member
From working in travel, up to 50% of the €700 would be for B&B accommodation, probably up to €50 to €100 for evening meals, €100 for the guide, VAT €60 leaving €90 - €140 gross margin (profit, admin and vehicle expenses to come out of this). The VAT figure based on the HMRC margin scheme.

Makes sense, sort of. But 100 euros a head a week for food, maybe if you go to the restaurant every day.
But the point is, some companies DO pay at least 200 or 250 a week. So it is possible. All I'm talking about, shouldnt there be some sort of regulations?

rene59 - Member
Can you go freelance and set your own day rates? If you have the qualifications, skills and languages would there not be enough continuity of work to sustain you over a season covering jobs when demand/opportunity arose among all the different guiding companies?

Yeah mate, that is my final aim, to have my own little business at some point.

[quote=theguyfromthealps ]
But the point is, some companies DO pay at least 200 or 250 a week. So it is possible. All I'm talking about, shouldnt there be some sort of regulations?
Surely it's self-regulating. If the company couldn't get guides for the amount they are offering then they'd have to pay more. Now, there's an argument to be made about the quality of guides they'd be able to employ and what effect that might have on their long term business but if they have managed to date, why should they change?

Not all guides do the same jobs, mind. Like, at A Quick Release, the guides were also helping at dinner, mechanicking for the hire fleet, etc. Long days. At White Room, as far as I saw guiding meant guiding pretty much.

I suppose part of it is some folks will just be "living the dream" and really pretty unfussed about the money, and as long as they're around, it'll be possible to pay a lower wage...

I was also offering fluent Italian, german and Spanish

I'd of thought you could get a very well paid job with those skills and live anywhere you wanted for the riding.

I would feel very uncomfortable even considering trying to pay someone I expected to work as a guide for me 100€ a week. Not sure what sort of person you're going to get who would be willing to work for that sort of money. Maybe those who do offer this are getting good people, but I find it difficult enough to find the right people even when offering what I believe is a proper wage.

since 2010 i have worked (on a freelance basis) for a company guiding folks over the Alps.

i have guided over 20 transalp tours;from Germany, across the Alps to one of the Italian lakes (Garda or Como).

2010-2011 i spent 6 months on Gran Canaria guuiding.

the pay in GC was 1000€ net... bike provided, but i ended up using my own on the "freeride" tour as i kept damaging the FS they provided and the chief mechanic kept getting upset. 300€ went on accomodation. the 700e was usually just enough to cover living costs. that was six days riding. i wouldn't bother with that again. was too knackered by the Sunday that i never had the inclination to go and ride for myself.

the work in the Alps pays well enough, despite using your own bike. for riding Sunday to Friday (with coach transfer back to Germany on the Saturday) i expect to earn around 1000€. a daily allowance of 70€/day saw me coming out with a few €s in my pocket if i ate conservatively and didn't drink too many beers in the evening (however most restaurants & huts provided me with food on the condition i dragged my guests there; paid for drinks myself). being self-employed means that i can claim on my hotel expenses, too, which is nice come tax return time.

alongside the guiding i also live in the back of a van for several weeks during the summer ferrying luggage between hotels.

it is, IMO, much more easy going - almost a paid mini-holiday. no guests to deal with for a start(!!!!!), cruising along mountains roads, enjoying a coffee at the roadside, watching the sun rise/set whilst parked up high on a mountainside. when it rains i can sit in the van and read a book. if i fancy it i can go and ride once my van is empty of luggage. usually finished by 12, or 3 at the latest and sometimes as early as 10 depending on the tour, which means i can get a good four-seven hours of riding in on trails that i wouldn't want to ride with 6-12 "tourists".

day rate is lower, but allowance is still provided. sleeping/eating/living in the van means my costs are next to nothing (biggest cost is usually either a slap-up meal somewhere or the gondola ticket). for driving ~1000km from Monday to Friday and including my allowance i ironically earn more than i would guiding (when guiding i [i]have [/i] to spend my allowance in the specified hotels (most of which are good, quality places)). somewhere around 1100€.

it's alright.

suppose i should add that being self-employed means that the rate i am paid is different to those that are on the books proper. oddly it is higher and i can claim back all my outgoings. another big plus is that the Germany taxman sees my bike as an Arbeitsgerät, or tool, so i can claim any bike costs (within reason). i also have to pay for my own outdoor liability insurance.

16/20€ a day is a proper piss take.

as others said earlier, you've a lot of responsibility as a guide. ultimately it is not a job you do for the money, but there should be enough of a financial reward that you can live from it.

personally i wouldn't do it for less than 120€/day.

What's the difference between ski guiding and MTB guiding I can't see any. Happy to pay to have quality day rather than scratching around for good routes.

What's the difference between ski guiding and MTB guiding I can't see any.

Restricted market in some countries e.g. France, which keeps the wages up. Someone was telling me that ESF is run as a cooperative and they elect a leader each season to set the rules etc...

What's the difference between ski guiding and MTB guiding I can't see any.

Qualifications?

I'm not sure what you need to be an MTB guide but to be a ski guide you need to be a fully qualified mountain guide which involves a lot of climbing at a very high level and takes years and €€€ to get, the skiing is only a small part of the qualification.

Do you need this to be an MTB guide or can "anyone" do it?

My assumption would be not since the ski guide qualification is only legally required to guide in glaciated terrain and we aren't cycling in that! MTB guiding isn't trivial but you don't need technical climbing skills, avalanche awareness or other winter skills, the only overlap is navigation and first aid.

That's not to say you shouldn't get paid to but MTB guides appear to be in a similar situation to trainee ski instructors where there is a low barrier to entry and people willing to do it for very little because of the lifestyle it affords.

Surely it's self-regulating

Suggestion above is that there [i]isn't[/i] a minimum wage in force in some areas. I'd probably argue that there should be - who wants to be guided and potentially rescued by the cheapest person available?

Just for a bit of balance, I worked as as guide/mechanic in the French alps last summer for similar money, and to be honest, if your food / lift pass / accommodation is taken care of for you, then you'll almost certainly pocket all the money you earn as your costs are zero ( I came back from 14 weeks with £1k in my pocket).

If you're guiding, almost all groups are fairly affluent, middle aged men, and a tip of about 50 euros a week plus a few beers is more than likely.

Not all EU countries have minimum wages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_minimum_wage

Those that do will probably allow deductions for accom etc from the cost, and bearing in mind that youth unemployment (and guiding is a market that younger people can feasibly do) is very high in many southern european countries at the moment you will have a bit of a "race to the bottom".

I have [b]sent applications[/b] for mountain bike guide jobs over a few years now and I have to say I’m somehow perplexed with how little some companies offer to pay their guides. The rates vary from country to country obviously but within the same country sometimes there are crazy differences in the pay. Some companies offer very reasonable conditions, some get very close to the ridiculous. [b]In one case[/b] I was offered 100 euros per week pay plus accommodation and “basic food”.

So this is ONE company... ...but if you are applying then presumably their are posts around at rates you would take... You could probably apply this sort of discussion to almost any job where the rates aren't fixed as part of a state monopoly and/or controlled by unions.

thinking about it... think it was nearer 900-1000 for driving and 1000-1100 for guiding...

the first year the rates were a bit lower. it went up according to how much experience/years of service you had built up.

always lots of new faces at the yearly guide-treff. that's because of the high turnover, i guess...

im jealous. you're not knee deep in welsh mud for less than minimum wage like i am doing price work in this weather where i can't get anything done. did i hear you say lift pass?

People tip guides?

That's never even occurred to me, I've paid for my holiday and assumed the guide must be getting paid what he feels is ok from that. I'm not tight either, seriously, never even thought about a tip.

Well done doug@basquemtb. Spot on approach. We used to pay apprentices slightly more than that per week (@£100pw), with all food, accommodation and bills, and help with kit and uniform. In return, they earned a pile of outdoor qualifications, and with each ticket their wage went up. At the end of the 3 years, they had far more disposable income than I had as CI on a salary, as all their bills were paid.

As with any job, quality is worth paying for, for both a smooth, well run and safe holiday, and for when things start to unravel.

Although the idea of being a guide seems attractive I suspect the reality isnt always that good. I know I wouldnt want to do it. Being responsible for those people, having to be cheerful, having to ride not because you want to ride.

It seems bonkers that an mtb company wouldnt pay their guides properly, surely they are the most important thing on a mountain bike holiday?

OP you estimate above you'd have 10 guests paying €700, the companies I've been with the max group size is 6 and on the last holiday it was 4. That changes the economics a lot. You also state that for €100 a week the guests coukd be eating in restaurants, not in the mountains you cannot and in fact no where else where food and wine is included. I also tip the guide if they are good (and they generally are).

I'd also back up the ski/mtb comparison, ski guides/teachers are better qualified (and those qualifications cost circa €5000 plus to get) and ski customers pay more for the guiding. You will earn more working for the official mtb school but in practical terms you'll struggle to get a job there due to qualification requirements (I am sure I read on another thread it's €10,000 for qualification) then you have the "closed shop" elements to deal with and after all that you are paid based on bookings (so uncertain) and you have to lay your own accommodation and food.

The owners of these companies are the one's taking the risks, hiring staff, booking accommodation, supplying vehicles and for a season which is pretty short to recover that outlay.

You are implying you want €1000 a month with paid board and lodging, my eldest 2 daughters work full time in the uk having got postgraduate level qualifications and they have less than €100 a week to spend in themselves after food, lodging, transport etc.

Fact is a lot of people are interested in mtb guiding as a summer job, if they get to ride for 8 weeks in the Alps for "free" they are happy.

People tip guides?

What I forgot to add is that the outdoor industry is also a place where many will offer a low wage, knowing there are a queue of monkeys waiting to take it. So many people take student / summer /couple of years jobs, thinking you get to canoe, bike or climb sell day in sunnies and sports. They are disappointed quickly by the 12 hour days, wet Wednesdays with another difficult group on the same trail or activity you have done for the last week solid...
For those who stay in the industry, they tend to be real people persons, or really into adventure and nature. Most who do it for the adrenaline / tan and girls /shiny kit /work avoidance tend to leave pronto.

@Maxkem - guides are important and I'd rather have them but location, quality of food, accomodation and scouting of trails plus the availability of van uplift are the most important things. I can read a map and with directions and If needed a GPS I can find my own way around.

For me, so long as the bed is comfy then the accomodation doesnt have to be anything flash. I prefer to eat out in restaurants on holiday. One of the big things for me, on holiday, is not having to faff around with maps. Guides usually know some trails that might not be widely known.

Qualifications?

[i]some[/i] companies specify their guides have qualifications, proudly cite this to customers then go on to breach the guidelines those same qualifications state on things like guide/client ratios...

I'd agree that pay is held down by the "summer job" market, with people happily doing it short-term as a way to get a subsidised season riding.

Market forces innit? Seems a lot like a Travel Rep's role to me but if so then very few people do that for more than a season or 2. Sympathies to the OP and Doug's post says a lot for his company/approach 🙂

Mackem - Member
People tip guides?

That's never even occurred to me, I've paid for my holiday and assumed the guide must be getting paid what he feels is ok from that. I'm not tight either, seriously, never even thought about a tip.

We always have a whip for the chalet staff and the guide/s. They're usually the ones that have made the holiday enjoyable. We all know they're not making much money, so stick your hand in your pocket and show your appreciation.

tbh it's a moot point, as nowadays I cant afford an MTB holiday. 🙁

People tip guides?

Tipped guides on every bike trip we've been on. Last one we were on everyone agreed to put 50 Euros in, so with 10 in the group the guides (3 of them, two riding and one driving) got 500 Euros between them. Think the biggest tip I've left has been about 70 Euros. Same for Chalet hosts when skiing, most people leave a tip if the service has been good.

I bet I holidayed with one of the cheap ass companies. One of the guides put sugar in the company minibuses tank!

@matt and @basque it's great to get a sense of perspective from the inside and for that to be here on STW for public record.

@winterfold "middle aged men" !!! You git how very dare you 🙂

At least £100 per week as a proper guide beats being paid the same working for a tour operator. I worked for a large holiday company a few years back, qualified guides were paid around £400pm to lead very boring rides aimed largely at non bikers, as well as maintaining the full fleet of bikes and helping with other activities.
As said earlier, they knew there was no shortage of people on gap years and beach bums that would take the job, so no need to do anything about it.

Most importantly, what are your expectations of remuneration?

I've done the short notice back up guide thing a couple of times, for companies who I've stayed as a guest with multiple times and so know the area. Effectively you have to treat it like a cost neutral holiday. Each one cost me flights, a set of tyres and a pair of brake pads for a couple of weeks of alpine riding.

Whether that feels good value or not depends on how the company treats you, and then what the guests are like. I ended up working far harder for one company looking after the hire bikes, dinner service, etc; but the environment was much more pleasant and far less stressful - I also had my own room. The other company was 5 guys to a room (although we did have a good craic) and I had a nightmare bunch of guests who were complete and utter lemmings on the bike and animals off them! (they did tip well though!) Swings and roundabouts.

Would I want to do it full time, now, aged 39? Nope. But it would have been pretty cool if I'd been able to do it straight out of Uni, with no ties and no expected standard of living.

doug_basqueMTB.com - Member

[i]I got an application from a guy who was getting a basic pay but the company he was working for charged him for food and accommodation. At the end of the week he had to give them money. It's wrong. The first time you find yourself on the hill with someone with a broken leg you will know how much of a responsible job it is. I pay my guides properly and I expect them to do a proper job, they don't mess about, the don't treat it as a holiday for themselves and they get paid for it. It's not going to buy them a Ferrari but it is a proper, legal wage.

You get the other side though. I charge 50€ a day for day guiding and every year I get people telling me its too expensive. I had a group of four tell me it was a rip off because they "could get a ski guide for that", how do you even respond to that?

Lots of other holiday companies pay properly too, having spoken to some of them about it. Like others say its not a job you do for money but similarly there should be a compensation attached to the responsibility, no?

Maybe it's best for me to keep my mouth shut on things this close to home but its something I feel strongly about.
[/i]

Spot on. Not an easy job, if you want to do a good job. Chances are, if you are enjoying it too much, then you are probably not working hard enough 😀

I've only been on three biking holidays - on two of them 100 Euros a week would have been over paying the guides! Bike Verbier, the guides were the owners and it showed - couldn't have been better.

Will try BasqueMTB next I think!

Tipping the guides- I'd buy them a couple of beers but I wouldn't tip. It'd probably equate to near-on 10euros but for me giving cash is just another 'tax' if it makes sense. Beers feels better.

Just to stick our oar in - we pay our guides properly. 2 of the guides are, of course, the owners so we're not exactly on a day rate.

Other guides we've employed have been highly-qualified professional guides and we've negotiated appropriate pay and conditions. Bike guiding, like ski instruction, is a job that you should be able to make a half-decent living off. Guides who can make half-decent money are able to stay in the profession, meaning that they are better-qualified, better-trained and more experienced, thus making a better experience for the client. We think that's worth paying for.

The whole "chalet job" salary situation is a big, ugly legal grey area. Accommodation, lift pass, food, etc. are not, strictly, allowed to contribute a significant part of the minimum wage in either France or the UK. However, for as long as the big boys of the industry (and we're talking Crystal, Thomson, etc. here!) continue to pay on this basis then it becomes impossible for small players to compete without doing the same.

JonEdwards - Member
I've done the short notice back up guide thing a couple of times, for companies who I've stayed as a guest with multiple times and so know the area. Effectively you have to treat it like a cost neutral holiday. Each one cost me flights, a set of tyres and a pair of brake pads for a couple of weeks of alpine riding.

matt_outandabout - Member
What I forgot to add is that the outdoor industry is also a place where many will offer a low wage, knowing there are a queue of monkeys waiting to take it. So many people take student / summer /couple of years jobs, thinking you get to canoe, bike or climb sell day in sunnies and sports.

The prosecution rests, m'lord.

The prosecution rests, m'lord.

*Like* 8)

JonEdwards - Member
I've done the short notice back up guide thing a couple of times, for companies who I've stayed as a guest with multiple times and so know the area. Effectively you have to treat it like a cost neutral holiday. Each one cost me flights, a set of tyres and a pair of brake pads for a couple of weeks of alpine riding.

there are quite a few people who work for the same company as me who have this attitude... a paid holiday. they tend not to come back after the first year or, if they do stick it out, complain lots and have more problems with guests/tour organisation.

Jon - guiding is great fun and I can understand not being fussed about the money for doing a couple of weeks.

But at the same time - you're being ripped-off, big time. Coming in at short notice, you are (presumably) digging someone out of a major hole, not doing them a favour.

This kind of work should be charged on a day rate (going rate for a qualified guide in the French Alps is €150-€250 per day) and you should be getting your expenses paid on top of that, not covering them yourself.

Unfortunately, it was ever thus in the outdoor industry. Too many people willing to work for free.

The prosecution rests, m'lord.

I wouldn't argue with you there...

Again, it all comes down to working conditions. One company I was a second guide in the group, due to its size. So largely I had to lead the way on the DHs (or play sweeper and fix punctures!) and chat to/help motivate the guests on the climbs. Easy work, very little responsibility - all teh "mountain leadership" stuff was done by the head guide. It was also for the co. who'd paid for my qualification and first aid tickets, so I had absolutely no problem doing it.

The second bunch, I arrived with the guests, and it was pretty much "there's your group, see you in a week's time". That was hard, stressful work. The first week I was leading guests on trails I hadn't ridden in a year, the second week was the lemmings. It was a bloody steep learning curve and I wouldn't work for them again unwaged.

Thing is, I can kinda see it from the company point of view as well? As someone filling in for a broken "proper" guide, or helping out during an extra busy week, I'm never going to be as good as one who's doing it week in, week out, so I wouldn't expect to be paid as one. That said, I'm also aware that while there's people like me willing to do odd weeks/fortnights for nothing, then I'm not doing the pay rates for the real guides any favours. Swings and roundabouts again.

Question- does 'one' of these companies start with the letter A?

A lot of interesting comments on here, many of them pretty insightful

It happens to be a subject close to my heart since we're actually looking to take on new staff to train up at the moment. Recruiting and retaining the best staff is something that we've spent a long time trying to get right over the years - and after 12 years, we're still learning I must admit!

(Anyone reading this thread actually still looking for a job - get in quick because we are interviewing this month):
http://www.trailaddiction.com/guiding-jobs.php

There are never a shortage of keen applicants as many have pointed out here. Filtering out the right ones though, is the difficult bit. Part of that of course is offering the right pay deal for the right people.

Im surprised no-one has yet pointed out the obvious - regardless of your level of qualification, how can anyone actually "guide" if they don't know where they are going properly, fully understand the local weather conditions and terrain, etc? (Generally speaking it takes at least a whole season where we operate before you'd be good enough to lead and be responsible for a group on your own, totally unaided IMHO)

In terms of pay for a [b]good / experienced / fully qualified guide[/b], Im definitely with Doug and Stevo. Its also a no-brainer if you want to offer a good holiday experience to customers. In my opinion the guides are THE most important part of any holiday. (For those who think otherwise, might it be that you never have been lucky enough to go out with a REALLY good guide before?) Put it this way, to our top guides we pay enough to get them back year after year (some are going into their 10th season now!) and we even have one senior guide who flies over from Queenstown (NZ), with his wife and child every summer in tow, just to come and work for us. And this is someone who runs his own guiding company in Queenstown during the European winter so its not like its his only biking fix of the year.

For a new guide / first season "trainee" (where basically the company you work for will be, investing a lot of time to train you up at their cost) the comparison to a apprentice scheme someone else mentioned is very much a good one. The realistic alternative for someone wanting to get into the game, would be to pay your own way in a resort for a season, train yourself (if you can!), then go in straight for the 'big bucks' next time around. But that first season will likely land you in a lot of debt. And could be pretty lonely, too.

What Im getting around to is, that 100 Euros a week is, I agree, not a lot (and will probably only attract people who are in it for a bit of a laugh). This might be genuinely OK for some operators - lets say where the routes are easy to learn and the paying customers are more recreational bikers than hardcore. But hoping for 400 Euros a week PLUS all your catering, accommodation, lift pass, bike, etc? I think you'll be lucky to find anywhere that can offer that in your [b]first[/b] season.

I remember landing a job in a top finance firm straight out of Uni. It was officially listed as the number 1 Graduate job in the UK at the time, according to The Times. I thought I had it made when I saw the salary they were paying me and immediately dropped my original plan of going to Whistler to be a guide for a year. But by the time I'd paid my rent, travel, council taxes, car & house insurance, food and living costs, I recall having only 200 - 300 quid a month left over for "myself".

Compare that to working as a guide for a good company. I know that on the pay deals we are now offering this year, even my trainee guys should have at least that much left over per month - before considering tips on top.

What would you rather do? Work in an office cowered over spreadsheets, emails and spouting management and strategy bullsh*t all day - or be out on your bike riding in the best places in the world and meeting new people who share your passion?

I recently made that choice myself believe it or not. After 14 years of working as a guide (and running trailAddiction) each summer - BUT as a Chartered Engineer in the UK on >300 GBP a day, I recently made the choice to jump to full-time "lifestyle" rather than full-time "money". On balance, so far so good, although bizarrely I still to be spending almost as much time on emails and spreadsheets as I used to! 🙁

I think I am still paying off the debt that I got into guiding in Whistler in 2007! 😀 🙄

We were given 'food' (a couple of pieces of frozen pizza...) but often went into town for a second meal as it wasn't enough. The couple of sets of free brake pads didn't last long! I can't exactly complain as I never went home but it was a bit of a joke.

"What would you rather do? Work in an office cowered over spreadsheets, emails and spouting management and strategy bullsh*t all day - or be out on your bike riding in the best places in the world and meeting new people who share your passion?"

I'm not unsympathetic to what you're saying and realize you're in a cutthroat casualised market BUT even if it's fun and some people would do it for free, it's ultimately work. And shouldn't people who work full time jobs at least make enough money to support themselves at least, let alone a dependent - isn't that the point of having minimum wage legislation? (BTW would most of the EU countries that didn't have a formalized minimum wage not have collective bargaining arrangements in place that mean there is a minimum amount of money that anyone employed would make?)

Similar problems with being a guide, responsible for accidents riding dh for €40 a day knowing the company isn't even registered or insured. Not something to be involved with so I left very soon after finding out it was all about lining their own pockets.

Don't know anything at all about guiding, never used them, doubt I ever will. But it strikes me that it's probably an industry where you would need to set up for yourself and trade of your own reputation to get anywhere, and set your own prices(ie don't join the race to the bottom companies). Just going by this thread, seems clear that's what the successful ones sound to be doing.

What qualifications do you need to guide? Presumably first aid and some sort of peak leader jobbie?

Some resorts are clamping down now, but generally it's just needed the ability to ride a bike and not get too lost

I am a guide and owner at bikingandalucia, sometimes I may take out only one client for a day for 30 EUROS, and after you have deducted the cost of the packed lunch, and fuel for any transfers, wear and tear on my own bike, it does not leave much. If you are chasing the money, you would not be a mountain bike guide. It is not as glamorous a job as many people perceive, patience is the biggest virtue required. Minimum qualifications to meet the insurers and regulators, are ability to speak the language, current 1st aid certificate, some sort of accredited mountain bike leaders course, insurance, and registered with the appropriate authorities (and patience and a sense of humour).

What would you rather do? Work in an office cowered over spreadsheets, emails and spouting management and strategy bullsh*t all day - or be out on your bike riding in the best places in the world and meeting new people who share your passion?

The moment your hobby becomes a job its no longer carefree or fun. I cycle to destress. If I had to take god-knows who, who could be fast, stupid, rude or nice with the odd badly maintained bike thrown in when I'm tired, not feeling great and not particularly well paid?

No ta.

What next 'you do it for the love of it'? Maybe if your 18, inbetween College and Uni or a season but not as a serious job. Thats NOT offensive to anyone put how can you put down roots/have a house etc? Especially in the Alps its ££££ if you wanted to buy/stay permanent.

The moment your hobby becomes a job its no longer carefree

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