[Closed] 100 euros a week for a mtb guide job?

Was the 100 Euros with a bike provided or using your own?

I remember seeing climbing jobs where they paid a pittance and expected the guide to provide their own ropes for the clients to trash...

Is there no minimum wage legislation where you want to work?

EDIT: Italy? Seems not.

Maybe try and find some work in France where it's around €9.50 ish.

DD I suspect that living costs might meant that minimum wage figure you've quoted may not apply?

DD I suspect that living costs might meant that minimum wage figure you've quoted may not apply?

Yeah, sorry...possibly hasty answer and talking out of my arse (nothing new there then...) 🙂

Supply and demand?

At last, I've pwned DD.

*amends "Big Hitting" spreadsheet*

😆

I'm bent in two man! Never have I felt more pwned.

Seems about right, full board and lodging plus probably a bike to ride. The other holiday companies eg ski or summer beach resrorts would be about the same. The €100 is pocket money.

I forgot to mention, these were companies run by brits. And no, not in Italy.

Plus you get to keep tips from the clients, which would be > 100 Euros / week if you're good.

Was the 100 Euros with a bike provided or using your own?

No, own bike

 

You don't do these jobs for the money. Same goes for pretty much any job in the outdoor industry

No, own bike

Bit tough then. Most companies I've been with provide the guide's bikes for them (and spares etc).

You don't do these jobs for the money. Same goes for pretty much any job in the outdoor industry

I understand you don't do this jobs for money, but with a group of 10 people paying 700 euros for a week I find there could be a bit more in for the guides. No?
A part from that, I have enough friends who are ski and mountain bike guides that actually make a good living with it. As I said some companies offer quite good money, I just don't understand the massive gaps.

I got an application from a guy who was getting a basic pay but the company he was working for charged him for food and accommodation. At the end of the week he had to give them money. It's wrong. The first time you find yourself on the hill with someone with a broken leg you will know how much of a responsible job it is. I pay my guides properly and I expect them to do a proper job, they don't mess about, the don't treat it as a holiday for themselves and they get paid for it. It's not going to buy them a Ferrari but it is a proper, legal wage.

You get the other side though. I charge 50€ a day for day guiding and every year I get people telling me its too expensive. I had a group of four tell me it was a rip off because they "could get a ski guide for that", how do you even respond to that?

Lots of other holiday companies pay properly too, having spoken to some of them about it. Like others say its not a job you do for money but similarly there should be a compensation attached to the responsibility, no?

Maybe it's best for me to keep my mouth shut on things this close to home but its something I feel strongly about.

Ski guides charge 350 Euros + a day in France, but then they're unionised, which ensures they all make a decent living from it.

And also sorry, I wrote 5 days, but it was 6 days guiding.

I got an application from a guy who was getting a basic pay but the company he was working for charged him for food and accommodation. At the end of the week he had to give them money. It's wrong. The first time you find yourself on the hill with someone with a broken leg you will know how much of a responsible job it is. I pay my guides properly and I expect them to do a proper job, they don't mess about, the don't treat it as a holiday for themselves and they get paid for it. It's not going to buy them a Ferrari but it is a proper, legal wage.

You get the other side though. I charge 50€ a day for day guiding and every year I get people telling me its too expensive. I had a group of four tell me it was a rip off because they "could get a ski guide for that", how do you even respond to that?

Lots of other holiday companies pay properly too, having spoken to some of them about it. Like others say its not a job you do for money but similarly there should be a compensation attached to the responsibility, no?

Maybe it's best for me to keep my mouth shut on things this close to home but its something I feel strongly about.

I couldn't agree more with you. And please don't get me wrong, I am not after money, I just think it is important to treat this as a proper job.

From working in travel, up to 50% of the €700 would be for B&B accommodation, probably up to €50 to €100 for evening meals, €100 for the guide, VAT €60 leaving €90 - €140 gross margin (profit, admin and vehicle expenses to come out of this). The VAT figure based on the HMRC margin scheme.

I was being paid 30 euros a day from a hotel for guiding groups,Southern Spain. No accommodation and own bike.

The owner asked if I could do it cheaper as he wanted to get more bookings.I jacked it in.

Can you go freelance and set your own day rates? If you have the qualifications, skills and languages would there not be enough continuity of work to sustain you over a season covering jobs when demand/opportunity arose among all the different guiding companies?

footflaps - Member

Bit tough then. Most companies I've been with provide the guide's bikes for them (and spares etc).

I know, 16 euros a day?

It's pretty pish IMO! I've known some to get good wages. But mainly rubbish.

As an aside, Cynic_Al your meant to be strathpuffering! Get off here!

Sandwich - Member
From working in travel, up to 50% of the €700 would be for B&B accommodation, probably up to €50 to €100 for evening meals, €100 for the guide, VAT €60 leaving €90 - €140 gross margin (profit, admin and vehicle expenses to come out of this). The VAT figure based on the HMRC margin scheme.

Makes sense, sort of. But 100 euros a head a week for food, maybe if you go to the restaurant every day.
But the point is, some companies DO pay at least 200 or 250 a week. So it is possible. All I'm talking about, shouldnt there be some sort of regulations?

rene59 - Member
Can you go freelance and set your own day rates? If you have the qualifications, skills and languages would there not be enough continuity of work to sustain you over a season covering jobs when demand/opportunity arose among all the different guiding companies?

Yeah mate, that is my final aim, to have my own little business at some point.

[quote=theguyfromthealps ]
But the point is, some companies DO pay at least 200 or 250 a week. So it is possible. All I'm talking about, shouldnt there be some sort of regulations?
Surely it's self-regulating. If the company couldn't get guides for the amount they are offering then they'd have to pay more. Now, there's an argument to be made about the quality of guides they'd be able to employ and what effect that might have on their long term business but if they have managed to date, why should they change?

Not all guides do the same jobs, mind. Like, at A Quick Release, the guides were also helping at dinner, mechanicking for the hire fleet, etc. Long days. At White Room, as far as I saw guiding meant guiding pretty much.

I suppose part of it is some folks will just be "living the dream" and really pretty unfussed about the money, and as long as they're around, it'll be possible to pay a lower wage...

I was also offering fluent Italian, german and Spanish

I'd of thought you could get a very well paid job with those skills and live anywhere you wanted for the riding.

I would feel very uncomfortable even considering trying to pay someone I expected to work as a guide for me 100€ a week. Not sure what sort of person you're going to get who would be willing to work for that sort of money. Maybe those who do offer this are getting good people, but I find it difficult enough to find the right people even when offering what I believe is a proper wage.

since 2010 i have worked (on a freelance basis) for a company guiding folks over the Alps.

i have guided over 20 transalp tours;from Germany, across the Alps to one of the Italian lakes (Garda or Como).

2010-2011 i spent 6 months on Gran Canaria guuiding.

the pay in GC was 1000€ net... bike provided, but i ended up using my own on the "freeride" tour as i kept damaging the FS they provided and the chief mechanic kept getting upset. 300€ went on accomodation. the 700e was usually just enough to cover living costs. that was six days riding. i wouldn't bother with that again. was too knackered by the Sunday that i never had the inclination to go and ride for myself.

the work in the Alps pays well enough, despite using your own bike. for riding Sunday to Friday (with coach transfer back to Germany on the Saturday) i expect to earn around 1000€. a daily allowance of 70€/day saw me coming out with a few €s in my pocket if i ate conservatively and didn't drink too many beers in the evening (however most restaurants & huts provided me with food on the condition i dragged my guests there; paid for drinks myself). being self-employed means that i can claim on my hotel expenses, too, which is nice come tax return time.

alongside the guiding i also live in the back of a van for several weeks during the summer ferrying luggage between hotels.

it is, IMO, much more easy going - almost a paid mini-holiday. no guests to deal with for a start(!!!!!), cruising along mountains roads, enjoying a coffee at the roadside, watching the sun rise/set whilst parked up high on a mountainside. when it rains i can sit in the van and read a book. if i fancy it i can go and ride once my van is empty of luggage. usually finished by 12, or 3 at the latest and sometimes as early as 10 depending on the tour, which means i can get a good four-seven hours of riding in on trails that i wouldn't want to ride with 6-12 "tourists".

day rate is lower, but allowance is still provided. sleeping/eating/living in the van means my costs are next to nothing (biggest cost is usually either a slap-up meal somewhere or the gondola ticket). for driving ~1000km from Monday to Friday and including my allowance i ironically earn more than i would guiding (when guiding i [i]have [/i] to spend my allowance in the specified hotels (most of which are good, quality places)). somewhere around 1100€.

it's alright.

suppose i should add that being self-employed means that the rate i am paid is different to those that are on the books proper. oddly it is higher and i can claim back all my outgoings. another big plus is that the Germany taxman sees my bike as an Arbeitsgerät, or tool, so i can claim any bike costs (within reason). i also have to pay for my own outdoor liability insurance.

16/20€ a day is a proper piss take.

as others said earlier, you've a lot of responsibility as a guide. ultimately it is not a job you do for the money, but there should be enough of a financial reward that you can live from it.

personally i wouldn't do it for less than 120€/day.

What's the difference between ski guiding and MTB guiding I can't see any. Happy to pay to have quality day rather than scratching around for good routes.

What's the difference between ski guiding and MTB guiding I can't see any.

Restricted market in some countries e.g. France, which keeps the wages up. Someone was telling me that ESF is run as a cooperative and they elect a leader each season to set the rules etc...

What's the difference between ski guiding and MTB guiding I can't see any.

Qualifications?

I'm not sure what you need to be an MTB guide but to be a ski guide you need to be a fully qualified mountain guide which involves a lot of climbing at a very high level and takes years and €€€ to get, the skiing is only a small part of the qualification.

Do you need this to be an MTB guide or can "anyone" do it?

My assumption would be not since the ski guide qualification is only legally required to guide in glaciated terrain and we aren't cycling in that! MTB guiding isn't trivial but you don't need technical climbing skills, avalanche awareness or other winter skills, the only overlap is navigation and first aid.

That's not to say you shouldn't get paid to but MTB guides appear to be in a similar situation to trainee ski instructors where there is a low barrier to entry and people willing to do it for very little because of the lifestyle it affords.

Surely it's self-regulating

Suggestion above is that there [i]isn't[/i] a minimum wage in force in some areas. I'd probably argue that there should be - who wants to be guided and potentially rescued by the cheapest person available?

Just for a bit of balance, I worked as as guide/mechanic in the French alps last summer for similar money, and to be honest, if your food / lift pass / accommodation is taken care of for you, then you'll almost certainly pocket all the money you earn as your costs are zero ( I came back from 14 weeks with £1k in my pocket).

If you're guiding, almost all groups are fairly affluent, middle aged men, and a tip of about 50 euros a week plus a few beers is more than likely.

Not all EU countries have minimum wages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_minimum_wage

Those that do will probably allow deductions for accom etc from the cost, and bearing in mind that youth unemployment (and guiding is a market that younger people can feasibly do) is very high in many southern european countries at the moment you will have a bit of a "race to the bottom".

I have [b]sent applications[/b] for mountain bike guide jobs over a few years now and I have to say I’m somehow perplexed with how little some companies offer to pay their guides. The rates vary from country to country obviously but within the same country sometimes there are crazy differences in the pay. Some companies offer very reasonable conditions, some get very close to the ridiculous. [b]In one case[/b] I was offered 100 euros per week pay plus accommodation and “basic food”.

So this is ONE company... ...but if you are applying then presumably their are posts around at rates you would take... You could probably apply this sort of discussion to almost any job where the rates aren't fixed as part of a state monopoly and/or controlled by unions.

thinking about it... think it was nearer 900-1000 for driving and 1000-1100 for guiding...

the first year the rates were a bit lower. it went up according to how much experience/years of service you had built up.

always lots of new faces at the yearly guide-treff. that's because of the high turnover, i guess...

im jealous. you're not knee deep in welsh mud for less than minimum wage like i am doing price work in this weather where i can't get anything done. did i hear you say lift pass?

People tip guides?

That's never even occurred to me, I've paid for my holiday and assumed the guide must be getting paid what he feels is ok from that. I'm not tight either, seriously, never even thought about a tip.

Well done doug@basquemtb. Spot on approach. We used to pay apprentices slightly more than that per week (@£100pw), with all food, accommodation and bills, and help with kit and uniform. In return, they earned a pile of outdoor qualifications, and with each ticket their wage went up. At the end of the 3 years, they had far more disposable income than I had as CI on a salary, as all their bills were paid.

As with any job, quality is worth paying for, for both a smooth, well run and safe holiday, and for when things start to unravel.

Although the idea of being a guide seems attractive I suspect the reality isnt always that good. I know I wouldnt want to do it. Being responsible for those people, having to be cheerful, having to ride not because you want to ride.

It seems bonkers that an mtb company wouldnt pay their guides properly, surely they are the most important thing on a mountain bike holiday?

OP you estimate above you'd have 10 guests paying €700, the companies I've been with the max group size is 6 and on the last holiday it was 4. That changes the economics a lot. You also state that for €100 a week the guests coukd be eating in restaurants, not in the mountains you cannot and in fact no where else where food and wine is included. I also tip the guide if they are good (and they generally are).

I'd also back up the ski/mtb comparison, ski guides/teachers are better qualified (and those qualifications cost circa €5000 plus to get) and ski customers pay more for the guiding. You will earn more working for the official mtb school but in practical terms you'll struggle to get a job there due to qualification requirements (I am sure I read on another thread it's €10,000 for qualification) then you have the "closed shop" elements to deal with and after all that you are paid based on bookings (so uncertain) and you have to lay your own accommodation and food.

The owners of these companies are the one's taking the risks, hiring staff, booking accommodation, supplying vehicles and for a season which is pretty short to recover that outlay.

You are implying you want €1000 a month with paid board and lodging, my eldest 2 daughters work full time in the uk having got postgraduate level qualifications and they have less than €100 a week to spend in themselves after food, lodging, transport etc.

Fact is a lot of people are interested in mtb guiding as a summer job, if they get to ride for 8 weeks in the Alps for "free" they are happy.

People tip guides?