DJI? Deliveroo? Disabled people? Proposals to set a 750w peak power limit appear to be on the cards.
Opening the article gives me an ‘error repeatedly occured’ error
Hmm. Fine on our browsers here. Will get Tech to investigate.
Also, I forgot to say that ebike industry should be concentrating on making motors more reliable, more efficient and cheaper etc than just doing a wattage arms race for headlines.
I’m using Safari on a fairly old iPad and have managed to have a read now but still got a lot of page reloading. More likely an adverts issue than your words I’d suspect 🤷♂️
Looks like the post delay is still an issue too
Also, I forgot to say that ebike industry should be concentrating on making motors more reliable, more efficient and cheaper etc than just doing a wattage arms race for headlines.
Blame customers, more power sells. Not just because of the spec sheet, everyone wants to beat their mates up the hill or at least not be trailing behind.
IT was interesting that in a recent discussion on the DJI bike the only thing that ultimately that seemed to matter to a lot of people was the higher max power and thus less effort required.
Replacing a max speed with a max power (did I read that write) won't happen in Europe as there are a lot of these bikes used in mix use paths with pedestrians - 25 km/h is plenty fast enough in that environment (but you need to edit your article?)
Also, what if DJI don’t follow the proposals and keep selling 1,000w peak power machines? Who’s going to police such ‘illegal vehicles’ riding along mountain bike trails and bridleways etc?
Well they'd not get their UK CA certification, (CE as was) which would pretty much put a stop to importation.
Max weight of 300kg might affect sales of Privateers?
"It’s to do with pedal assist bicycles straying too far from their original remit and raisn d’être. Namely, to add a bit of extra motor power on top of the rider power going into the pedals.'
Not sure I agree with that, shopping bikes have claimed to be car replacement options and recreational mountain bikes have shouted "Further, Faster, Steeper!" from the get go!
I’m happy for the ebike speed limit to stay at 15.5mph. It’s fast enough to keep you riding off road at a fair clip, but not fast enough to terrorise people as you go past, whereas 20mph is actually quite quick for a canal path, town centre, single track.
It seems to be targeting the wrong thing. Cargo bikes are a genuinely useful thing, replacing the car and helping reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Mountain bikes with motors are a waste of the world's lithium and they're not really going to lose out from the new regulations.
The peak power race had to stop. I was just jaw dropped when i read that the 250w limit was what can’t be exceeded for 30 minutes.
I’ve not done much time on an ebike so can’t comment on the support ratios.
I think fundamental to our ebike rules is that can go anywhere a push bike can go. If you want to do 20mph or 30mph that’s fine you can buy an electric motor bike that does that. But you then lose the ability to ride bridleways, cycle paths and trail centres
off-road wise does this sort of power increase erosion/ wear to surfaces? Not trying to start anything just curious if that kind of power actually does something.
off-road wise does this sort of power increase erosion/ wear to surfaces? Not trying to start anything just curious if that kind of power actually does something.
IME Undoubtedly. As someone who rides both, it is unnavoidable to do more damage, especially uphill, on an eeb.
Agree that maintaining current speed restriction, and reigning in power and torque increases would be a good thing. Make motors and batteries lighter, not bigger and faster
off-road wise does this sort of power increase erosion/ wear to surfaces?
Anecdotally, yes.
a) riders are doing more laps of winch and plummet type stuff, so just more use = more wear
b) a big issue locally is riders going out on the moorland peat in the wet - where previously it was summer use only as you physically couldn't propel a bike through the bogs, riders are now just sticking it in Turbo and mashing through regardless. Talking to the landmanagers, its becoming enough of an issue that where they would previously turn a blind eye to subtle cheeky use in good conditions (guilty as charged!), they're going to start actively enforcing bike bans all year round - the peat is now so lacking in vegetation it still erodes even in dry conditions
Agree that maintaining current speed restriction, and reigning in power and torque increases would be a good thing. Make motors and batteries lighter, not bigger and faster
Sounds about right to me, except everyone I know that has an eeb would go with more durable not lighter.
I'm in no rush to swap my eeber for anything with moar power, but something that could better stand up to our local conditions year round would be very appealing to me and the folks I ride with.
The assistance shouldn't really be more than any cycling muggle could produce, where's the tipping point between assistance and the pedals essentially being a throttle?
As ever, there's no impetus on the manufacturer to stop misuse and no enforcement when there is misuse. Seems the powers that be have turned a blind eye to the obvious e-Mopeds that are being used by deliveroo et al, so someone running 1000w of power instead of 750w and still actually pedaling is never going to get picked up.
1000w is 2 juiced up Lance Armstrong’s on top of your own output. That is not an assist, that’s a pedal controlled throttle.
If the motor is meant to assist then shouldn’t it be on a 1:1 ratio? If it’s anymore than that then it’s not assisting as it’s doing the bulk of the work.
300 kg is a very big cargo bike - that's 90kg more than the EAV four wheelers which a lot of city delivery operators use. Our Riese & Müller Packster bikes are able to carry a car boot's worth of stuff and are only 50 kg. In the UK, crappy infrastructure is much more of a barrier to families or people with disabilities.
it doesn’t take very many rider input watts to get the motor ro give out its much hyped 1,000 watts of motor assistance. The experience is akin to using soft-pedalling
My ebike has 85nm and 400watts max
It feels like you have to put effort in up to about 50/60nm. Stick it in full and your legs don’t feel like they are the ones contributing Most of the effort . However ride long enough and steep enough you can still end up knackered in even at full 85nm/400 watts.
Ive not ridden the DJI but I imagine it must be quite frustrating hitting 15mph almost instantly and then having to pedal.
Is Donald Trump involved ? Sounds like a stealth tariff to me to protect the old school motor companies that cannot match the DJI output
As has been said above, I’d prefer them all to concentrate on and in order. Reliability, 1 universal mounting standard, universal removal batteries
you can still end up knackered in even at full 85nm/400 watts.
I thought the new orbea rise was a full power bike? Ie 85nm and around 600w?
As for motor power, there will come a point when more power is pointless as long as the 15.5mph motor cut out speed exists. Once you can maintain 15.5mph up any steepness of hill, any more power is useless, I'd guess that djis 1000w is pretty much that point.
I'm not interested in max power, 750w is more than enough, I want reliability, lightweight, small form factors, efficiency.
off-road wise does this sort of power increase erosion/ wear to surfaces?
Anecdotally, yes.
a) riders are doing more laps of winch and plummet type stuff, so just more use = more wear
b) a big issue locally is riders going out on the moorland peat in the wet - where previously it was summer use only as you physically couldn't propel a bike through the bogs, riders are now just sticking it in Turbo and mashing through regardless. Talking to the landmanagers, its becoming enough of an issue that where they would previously turn a blind eye to subtle cheeky use in good conditions (guilty as charged!), they're going to start actively enforcing bike bans all year round - the peat is now so lacking in vegetation it still erodes even in dry conditions
Of course they cause more erosion - simple physics. Heavier, more speed, bigger grippier tyres with more power transferred to traction. Similar to modern heavier cars leading to more potholes. Anecdotally, many of the riders using the powerful bikes are more interested in blasting around, racing mates than concern for the environment they're travelling through. Similar to fly camping - lack of understanding/education.
Flame away
We need a new category of electric motorbike, and get electric assist back to where it was. Electric motorbikes could be licenced a bit like mopeds.
We need a new category of electric motorbike, and get electric assist back to where it was. Electric motorbikes could be licenced a bit like mopeds.
A few countries have speed pedelec class. Halway between a bicycle and a moped
https://rideelectric.co.uk/speed-pedelec/
Who loses out if new ebike rules are introduced?
mmm... I'ma go with "nobody. Except maybe the manufacturers, who don't get to make sales by one-upping each other with outrageous power claims".
Anything you can't do with 750w, you don't need an ebike for.
I thought the new orbea rise was a full power bike? Ie 85nm and around 600w?
Nope it’s only 400w
They didn’t really advertise that .
The question, ‘ Who is going to police all this?’ is very relevant. It’s clear the police aren’t interested in the thousands of illegal ebikes used on the streets of every town and city so why would they bother with a few marginally dodgy emtbs? Obviously manufacturers will have to jump through hoops to make sure their products are legal but the fact it is legal to sell Surons to ride ‘on private land’ gives them a get around
Irrespective of the lack of policing it will make a huge difference to my (and probably others) cycling if there are law changes that impact access to rights of way and the general no tax/no licence/no insurance /no mot role of the ‘bicycle’ as currently is defined.
It might be true that there isn’t enough policing. But there isn’t no Policing
https://reightgoodbikes.co.uk/uk-police-seize-e-bikes-e-scooters/
A really insightful video from Alex Bike Tester featuring a recording of Bosch eBike Systems' CEO, Claus Fleischer, talking about the history and reasoning behind the proposed 750W limit at this week's launch of Bosch's new power update for the CX5 motor in Riva del Garda, Italy:
Who is going to police all this?
Strava ! Noticed a few KOM’s at Llandegla have avg speeds that are impossible unless your on a bike that’s been de restricted
Llandeglas own rules state no de restricted bikes but clearly many do.
So how’s it going to work if a private estate can’t control law breakers?
Simple in it really . E-bikes will need to be licensed and pay road tax
slightly tongue in cheek, but actually might be the best route to go. Might mean less fires in homes
Always struck me as odd that the max power was allowed to be than a tdf rider can do for any length of time. Just limit them to what an average rider can sustain. Say 200w. Why wouldn't that be good enough? (Ideally that would be total out including the rider). More in keeping with the original intent of making cycling available to those who'd otherwise not be able to cycle. .
The rules state a reasonable 250w. Then some one said are that’s average power. The peak can be higher. So i thought about it and i could see a need for a higher max. Initially i thought a fraction of a second to get over a dead spot in the pedal strike. Then i thought a few seconds for pulling away from rest or a steep obstacle. Maybe 30 seconds wood be generous. Turns out you can’t exceed an average of more than 250w for 30 minutes. I have no idea how anyone can up with 30 minutes
If that was 250w max then fine, but it's 250w plus whatever the rider is putting out. Seems way to high.
Turns out you can’t exceed an average of more than 250w for 30 minutes. I have no idea how anyone can up with 30 minutes
The test looks at how the motor performs at 250W or whatever the max continuous rated power is - it's run at the stated power and the test looks for stable operation, if stable (temps or resistance) at that power it passes. I would expect a 250W motor to run ok at 250W for more than 30 mins on that basis.
If that was 250w max then fine, but it's 250w plus whatever the rider is putting out. Seems way to high.
Depends on the overall weight and work being done, eg a cargo bike or a commuter with a few days worth of kit riding in a hilly area who doesn't want to be sweaty arriving at work. They're all EPACs alongside e-MTBs and the regs currently need to fit all.
I think max speed limit makes sense alongside max continuous power - higher outputs for a short period just gets you up a steeper hill with a heavier load, you still max out at 15.5mph whatever power you have. But it was inevitable that e-MTBs would eventually go too far within that and make bikes that were too quick up to speed or breaking traction etc. 'Hobby' use e-MTBs should be restricted imho, it would be a shame if cargo bike scope was limited by wide-ranging regs though.
A really insightful video from Alex Bike Tester featuring a recording of Bosch eBike Systems' CEO, Claus Fleischer
Hmm I watched that thinking it smacked of a more grown up version of Donald Trump
Basically he was saying we have rules in Europe that we have agreed and lobbied governments to setup. If you want to join our club play by our rules or we will try and not let you in.
There was also a bit of we have been caught with our pants down by DGI, so using the law to stop them
However I do think the bit about when dies an ebike becomes a moped is valid, but it’s clear the industry set the rules (by lobbying) and now it’s not happy that newcomers to the market are beating their products
Basically he was saying we have rules in Europe that we have agreed and lobbied governments to setup. If you want to join our club play by our rules or we will try and not let you in.
Is that ok? The rules were set up by CEN, they're within an ISO standard. The industry has influence in that but it's not an entirely commercial thing. It's mainly about what's considered safe and reasonable for a product class. The standards are updated to cope with changing tech or risks that become apparent (eg the mechanical tests for disc brake frames and carbon forks changed recently), though I don't know why peak power wasn't part of the EPAC ISO standard to begin with.
now it’s not happy that newcomers to the market are beating their products
Undoubtedly an element of that but unlikely it's the main driver. Bosch or Shimano could have made a 1000W or 1500W peak or 100+ Nm torque motor by now but they didn't. Perhaps some brands are not focussed on 'MAX POWER!' sales lines and can see the challenge to perception of the category from excessive power e-bikes. But as I said, unsure why max power/torque wasn't part of the standards before - perhaps the focus was more on cargo bikes than what e-MTBs may become.
No body loses .They just don't get their own little wants. There is no need at all for more power for recreational needs. That is just want. There is no need for more power for much commercial use, that's want by the delivery riders, most of whom need regulating but sadly they are a product of a lazy society which is another can of worms. No one needs something 10 minutes quicker. The only justifiable use for more power might be for local authority type stuff such as those used to pull trailers . I am not so sure that the police don't want to do something, the coppers I know do, but there isn't the money. With my stand alone motoring police force with fine with two zeros stuck on the end there would be.
Who loses out if new ebike rules are introduced?
Fat middle-aged men who just want to go faster and faster without having to make more of a token effort and have to sell their existing 'slow' emtb and upgrade to something more like a slow pedal-regulated, under-powered e-motorcycle so they can 'punishment pass' walkers, dogs, geese and ducks on canal tow-paths while deluding themselves that they are improving their fitness by 'riding more', that's who.
I'm sure some on here will take offence at this, in which case I suggest you look in the mirror 🙄
Often wondered if a ratio system would be better if introduced, say a 1:1 input to assistance and maybe cap it at 800w
Punchy response from DJI:
https://singletrackworld.com/2025/05/dji-does-not-agree-with-proposed-e-bike-rule-changes/
