Story Update - 4th Feb 2022 When we posted the original story below, the comments section jumped straight to a discussion that went something along th ...
By identitizombie
Get the full story here:
https://singletrackworld.com/2022/02/the-cymru-mtb-classic-new-for-2022/
"Racing on bridleways" and "how much?!" are my first thoughts.
900 notes for 150km riding, so £6/km. better be some pretty f’ing special trail or it’s a no from me
I'm pretty keen!
And being picky, it actually works out at £3 per km as £900 is for a pair!
better be some pretty f’ing special trail or it’s a no from me
Dyfi BP and CyB for a fair chunk, it looks like. Hopefully off piste rather than timing you down the Addams Family alongside the general public.
I was expecting some accommodation for that dosh, maybe your own tent a la BC Bike Race, but apparently not.
Is there a reason for the comments being invisible?
For me it's my phone going into dark-mode at night. I switched it off and can read again! 🤣
(It's fine in the forum, it's under the news item it vanishes)
Ah - cheers. Weirdly it’s fine on my phone but not on the iPad. I’d assumed they were trying to mask the multitude of “HOW MUCH???” comments. 🤣
Stages aren't much more than XCO distance so will mean furious racing at the sharp end, which I guess is the draw if you're fast.
If you're not then it seems like a tough sell but at least the format is fitness accessible.
I'm delighted to see someone trying to bring more stage racing to the UK, but for me that's silly money, especially as accommodation etc is extra.
For that sort of money I'd be looking at going to Poland again to do Sudety / Beskidy, which I reckon you could do for less money, including flights and the hotel upgrade.
Also the distances are way too short each day. At race pace you'll only be out for about 3 hours!
🙁
We're hopefully fixing the dark mode issue... 🙂
I did note that you could do that 1800km Silk Road race for similar money. There's no accommodation there either, but at least your £/km is going to be a bit better...
I was interested too....until I saw the cost. You could do a longer stage race abroad (as Chipps says) for that kind of money. So, £150 a day each - for not much more in terms of facilities than a Scott MTB Marathon type sportive race that comes in around £40 for the day. Blimey.
It's pity as it would be really good to see this kind of thing in the UK.
That entry fee is ridiculous. Profiteering at its worst.
I’m delighted to see someone trying to bring more stage racing to the UK, but for me that’s silly money, especially as accommodation etc is extra.
+1. At the minimum a tented option should be included.
How many times has someone tried to get something like this going?
for not much more in terms of facilities than a Scott MTB Marathon type sportive race that comes in around £40 for the day. Blimey.
Plus all three stages are basically half-day rides, even at my very mediocre pace. The Scott Marathons are more like 70km.
mrhoppy - Trans Wales did this very well over the years. I did it three times and it always seemed like good value for money...
What a shame it costs so much, I'd have been bang up for that and I reckon a lot of my riding mates would too.
All of the Epic events are expensive nowadays, they've built their brand up (now owned by IronMan I think) and they're premium cost events but do come with good organisation and supporting care. Like many have pointed out, the pricing without accommodation seems odd - I'd assumed camping would have been the default for the event and included in that price.
As someone else points out above, stage racing events have been tried in the UK and seem to struggle. Part of that is the inability to race on anything that is not "private" land, and bridleways can only be connecting routes. Then you have to factor in scale - many trails can't cope with large numbers of riders, whereas events would be more cost effective if you were able to host several hundred riders rather than 100 or less. And then general labour costs to help set up race villages (particularly if they move during the event) are also higher than other locations.
I really hope it's a success and paves the way for more similar events. The UK has many great areas for riding and it would be lovely for many people to be able to race in new locations.
Looks like it could be fun, I'd love to do some mtb stage racing. But why the hell do they make these events where you have to do it in pairs? Why can't they do a solo category?
Imagine spending all that money then you or your racing partner is much stronger or weaker than you, you'd feel like either you are letting them down or they are letting you down. Or worse still, if one of you fails to finish or crashes out, it's game over for the other one. All that money down the drain.
I've done 2up time trialling, where I've had a difference in ability and it feels like a waste of money and time for those races, and that's only £10 to £15 to race, so would hate to spend all that money for this race and feel the same way.
I know the logistics and costs of putting on a stage race must be a lot so don't really begrudge the very high cost. It's actually great events like this are getting put on. So the organisers need recognition for putting on the event, but for me the pairs thing means it's not something I'd do.
@vdubber67 - did you ride the 2008 Trans Wales? While it had some great routes for riding, the poor organisation and management of the race village in (not unpredictable) inclement conditions wasn't ideal. I'd hazard a guess that the Cymru MTB classic will have considerably better organisation for supporting, managing and feeding the riders during the event. Price per rider is similar, albeit it is for fewer days.
@sbtouring - for their longer events, the pairs thing is a good idea as you are able to motivate each other as when one rider is suffering, the other tends to be in a better state. Apart from at the very sharp end of the race, losing a partner doesn't prevent you finishing and they will also attempt to partner you up with other spare riders of a similar ability if you lose your own. I do agree that it means you need to find a partner with a similar outlook and expectation, but these multi-day events require some training so you should have time to work out what works for you both.
I think the pairs thing might actually reduce their insurance costs. I’ve done races as a single but for whatever environmental conditions at times we’ve been told to stay in groups. One instance was reports of a mountain lion in the area. Just a guess though..
Straightliner - yeah, I did 2008, 2010 and 2011 I think.
Whilst 2008 was indeed a tough year in terms of the weather, I don't remember anything about the actually management of the event that I found lacking. I seem to remember getting fed and washed etc. Maybe I'm wearing some rose tinted specs though there. It wasn't the best year tbh!
I rode the Ritchey Trailmasters event a few years later as well (three days out from one base) - thought that was good too...
@Straightliner never thought of it like that about the motivation. But like you say it's getting a racing partner at the same level which is difficult. Those that I ride with we are all at different fitness levels. Probably most of those wouldn't want to race, and possibly the only rider that would consider racing our fitness levels is vastly different so wouldn't be fair on either of us.
So nearly £2k (£1k each) if you go for the accommodation option....
Trans Madeira is only £1500 + flights for 5 days and that includes meals, tent hotel for 1 night and 2 beers per day!!
I know where my money would go.
For £899 I can do two of us, fully catered (with a lunchtime snack thrown in) in Courchevel for a week at that time of the year, including the lift passes, transfers and the flights there.
While mountain biking has been hugely popular across the UK for years, and particularly in Wales, riders have never had the chance to take on the challenges and enjoyments that an Epic Series event presents. A fully-timed, multi-day stage race in a two-person team format on home soil.
Never had the chance? I'm pretty sure when I did the Black Mountains 3 day event in 2011 it was a fully timed, multi day stage race in a two person format.
The Bearded Man you mean?
Cracking event - did them
both. It was a solo event & if IIRC tents were included with pricing around the £3-400 at the most.
It was £150 for 2 1/2 days all in. Does make £899 with no accommodation 10 yrs later for roughly the same amount of time look rather steep!
£899 what a cheek, nearly as much as a cheek of expecting people to buy to get full access to a website by paying a annual fee so they can just re-post u tube videos you can watch for free.
reports of a mountain lion in the area.
Not many mountain lions in Wales, from what I've read! But it seems reasonable that it would reduce insurance costs, having someone to look after their partner and call for assistance if something bad happens.
Not many mountain lions in Wales
Oh I don’t know - it’s got it’s fair share of cougars..
How much was my first thought, then lets do something similar for less....great idea but too much dosh...
As advertsed it's utterly illegal, with no valid insurance for either the organisers or the riders. Whatever clueless Council officials and the Forestry Enterprise people think they cannot over ride the law.I suggested they contact British Cycling for the legality of the stuation. I'm ex Powys Highways BTW.
It's such a ludicrous price I can't help but think it's a scam. £900 just for an entry of for an extra £1000 you can have 4 nights in a local hotel... Who calculated that? Are they flying you in an out of London by helicopter every day?
For a giggle I chose the following weekend for George III Hotel. 3 nights sole occupancy of an Estuary Kingsize is £360 to £380 B&B. Where's the other £640 going, hopefully its all in 3 very fancy dinners with an unlimited run at the cellar on the final night.
Hardly surprising was it?
I do wonder how many actually signed up.
I'm sure that you could do something similar by block booking a camp site, erecting a load of tents and providing onsite BBQ's etc for a lot less than the prices above - Trans Madeira style.
I get that organising the race and access, insurance etc comes at a cost - but I'm sure more people would sign up if the route was epic and the accommodation more in keeping with the 'MTB Adventure'.
After the event the tents could be donated to local schools, scout groups, youth programmes, homeless etc - give a bit back to the community etc.
It's the same as that Galloway gravel event. Nuts.
Shows that it's the new golf....
There cancellation statement, what a load of guff.
You can't race on public bridleways, and they do call it a race. You can host an individual challenge ride, and if there's a list of times that the riders completed it in....
Money grabbing nonsense.
British Cycling for the legality of the stuation. I’m ex Powys Highways BTW.
British Cycling sanction a regular race that goes over bridleways, they may be trying to circumvent with landowners permission but its not in line with the law as understood.
Not sure how gbduro got away with it either.
Not sure how gbduro got away with it either.
GBDuro isn't a race, it's as a scrappy rolling picnic through Britain's ever changing landscapes.
"You can’t race on public bridleways, and they do call it a race."
I spoke with one of the course designers about that at the time - he reckoned that because there was so much local government involvement in the event (presumably due to the international status of the organisers and the promises they made to make Wales famous) that there was a real chance of getting BW racing allowed. I can't say I believed him on that...
Unsurpising.
£900 just to line up & kip in a tent? BONKERS.
It probably is possible to get to race on Bridleways. BUT - I suspect it would require an Act of Parliament to temporarily remind/ over-rule other legislation.
That's what was needed in the past for the Birmingham Grand Prix (Formula 3k) using streets, and also required on the Isle of Mull when the Tour of Mull road rally went formal 'closed roads' in about 1990 (rather than an open road event that just happened to get informal road closures by everyone there, as had happened for the previous 20-30 years.
For those, it wasn't the actual road closure that was the problem- those could easily be obtained. But even then other traffic law remained in place, inc. The ones related to not racing on the public highways, average speed limits of 30mph, still legally required to drive on the left hand side, stop at stop lines, etc).
No local councillor is getting that done - it costs a huge amount of £££.
(It's like BoZo thinking the law doesn't apply to him and his Eaton mates - except that the police in Wales will follow up on illicit push bike racing, whereas the Met is as corrupt as those in and around No10 so don't want to bother investigating the uncomfortable truths)
. I can’t say I believed him on that…
They couldn't do it for the Manchester Commonwealth Games, why do they think they can get it to work?
It only takes one stakeholder nevermind a landowner to object. The rambling and horse riding groups will go mad if they think their priority will be impacted.
GBDuro isn’t a race, it’s as a scrappy rolling picnic through Britain’s ever changing landscapes.
LOL
The ride consists of 4 timed stages (~500km each); lowest aggregate time over the 4 stages 'wins'... nothing.
It's a timed ride with published results, aka a race. Which is how the participants describe it on various YouTube videos.
You can cleverly claim it's a " reliability ride" but it's not. No-one "wins" an Audax in the UK
This sounds like a race for a Rhys, Gareth, Fergus or Alys.
It’s a timed ride with published results, aka a race
How's Strava fit into that analogy?
Every footpath, bridalway & road timed section then becomes a "race".
If I've got it right the "wins" concept of GBDuro is your own personal achievement of accomplishing the events trials and tribulations. Its a bit of a dig and ridicule of the whole palava of other "winning" type events (TdF). Its low key, grass roots, pack your panniers full of food to get you from Lands End to John O Groats and get a train to the start.
At the inagral event Lachlan competed, went home and left an open tab for the others finishers party. There was no "win", just an end of the road & a cold beer & peers.
he reckoned that because there was so much local government involvement in the event (presumably due to the international status of the organisers and the promises they made to make Wales famous
Interesting that the organisers are from outside of these shores. I work in regional business news publishing and some years ago a big, successful American business news publisher decided to target the UK by launching in our region.
At first we were concerned, but once we got a look at their rate card - and word filtered through about their entitled and borderline aggressive sales tactics - we realised that they had completely misread the market and weren't worth worrying too much about.
They lasted less than a year. Seems many non UK businesses fail to understand the differences in the way we operate and the way in which we perceive value..
If I’ve got it right the “wins” concept of GBDuro is your own personal achievement of accomplishing the events trials and tribulations. Its a bit of a dig and ridicule of the whole palava of other “winning” type events (TdF). Its low key, grass roots, pack your panniers full of food to get you from Lands End to John O Groats and get a train to the start.
There's a results table for the event on the website, find one for an audax
I don't confess to knowing the detail. But based on the fact that local accommodation (not just the race hotels) were all fully booked during the event, I doubt that lack of entries was the issue. I'm aware that there was a lot of international interest in the event. With this in mind I'm prepared to take the official announcement at face value, and assume that permissions for temporary closures were the sticking point, despite buy-in from the county council.
Personally I think it's a massive shame that this isn't going ahead (even though admittedly I hadn't entered). It would have been a huge opportunity to showcase Wales as a MTB holiday destination. The Epic series has a strong media output, and would have helped promote the region to foreign tourists who do have money to spend. I guess some "locals" weren't so convinced of the benefits, or would rather maintain the status quo?
Yeh I got in touch with them again. They replied saying the respective PROW officer had signed it off: and so I quoted the law at them, about 6 weeks ago..... A bunch of donuts I thought but as they were foreign, how could they know? However the Council idiot really ought to know the law. That's his job.
You can apply to run a car rally on a bridleway. You can't apply to run a test of speed for cycles. That's the law and no one in the last 30 ears has managed to change it. And they all thought it was going to be oh so easy to do so.
I still maintain that it's a missed opportunity for the area. (In this case, Wales' loss will be Andorra and Croatia's gain)
Anyhow, I've found an outfit that's organising NOT a race (more of a 3-day guided riding type thing) on the same trails/bridleways/PROWS etc. Significantly cheaper than the MTB Classic, but I guess this won't fall foul of the access issue.
https://dirtshenomad.com/product/the-journey-north-wales-150-2/
It's not a missed opportunity if there never was one in the first place, unless one happens to believe that pigs can fly. I've run/set up events and I've always had to be mindful of the law.
As the law stands you are correct. However (quoting UK Cycling about racing on bridleways), "this is an unreasonable anomaly, and the law needs to be modified to allow appropriately organised events to take place on this type of way".
Alternatively, the bridleway sections could have been untimed transition stages.
Yes well CTC /UK Cycling have had some 25 years to deal with this. It's all very well them bleating but they've done nothing to change it: just like BC before them. BC told me over 30 years ago that they were getting it changed within a few months. I replied they weren't. Cycling UK are hapless. Their take on the 25 year rule was hideously laughable, in line with their consistent offroad record of window dressing, appearing to be doing something useful without committing any resources or planning to get it done. Their ambition stops at garnering new members. Insurance great, just forget anything else beyond Gravel/RoughStuff routes.
To change the law one needs to offer BHS something in return, and we don't have a single bargaining chip.
One could argue that the ruling classes hold is weaker on the Socialist Welsh Assembly, but their track record on delivery is appalling.
On the point of transition stages that depends on the number/length of them. One would have to drag numerous heavy and expensive transponder equipment out to those sections and use staff with very spotty mobile coverage, and the only access to the points would often be by um Bridleway or Footpath. That requires Army levels of rehearsal & planning, well not the Russian army obviously.
As what constitutes a test of speed, well some have been sailing very close to the wind.
One certainly cannot give out prizes based on quickest times: or indeed set out courses away from legal routes on land without permission, or use BC event [not race] insurance when actually running a race, without invalidating one's insurance.
BC stated that if the results were not listed in order of time it did not constitute a competitive event. That one could realign the file at a touch of a button seemed not to concern them.
It did me so I made no distinction between short and long routes, so one couldn't compare.
I got a bit of stick for that from riders.
Bit late I know but, how, like that silly London event, can you call it "classic"? In cycling terms that denotes something that has been around for decades or more and is a foundation of the sport. LBL is a classic. Something knocked up this century can't be.
The Real Ale Wobble is a Classic. The longest running MTB event? Very well run these days too.