They’re more a Morgan than an Aston Martin – plugging away at doing things their own way even though people might not get it/appreciate the looks but for those in the know, they’re superb things. The difference is, whilst Morgan will never sell a handful of cars, Orange I’m sure could get back to selling a shed full of bikes.
Good comment.
I think I remember an interview with the guy who bought them comparing them to a sports car with no driver aids (possibly a Caterham?).
They definitely face the challenge of people thinking they are old-fashioned and ugly - whereas fans know they are brilliant fun, really fast and quite light. The frame weights are comparable with some carbon bikes for sure.
And I think that "old fashioned" perception hides that they are right up there in terms of progressive geometry with their massive long chainstays.
Yeah, they could have a more-focused range and rein the pricing in a bit, but I think Podge's comment about the cost of running the factory is probably relevant. How many smaller bike brands operate their own factory? Must be a "count on one hand" list.
Edit: Actually, does anyone know if the factory was absorbed into Orange as a single company? Or kept separate?
I bet there are minimal people who both a)want a motor and b)would buy an orange anyway
I'd disagree. Oranges are mostly bought by men in their 40s and 50s with lots of disposable income who are listing after their youth. Same with e bikes
How about a show of hands: if Orange closed the factory/stopped UK production, but came up with a clear range of top quality bikes at decent price points (similar to how they were perceived through most of the '90s), then who wouldn't get on board?
I'd be surprised if lots of folk ditch them for a genuine 'made in the UK' badge of honour.
How about a show of hands: if Orange closed the factory/stopped UK production, but came up with a clear range of top quality bikes at decent price points (similar to how they were perceived through most of the ’90s), then who wouldn’t get on board?
I’d be surprised if lots of folk ditch them for a genuine ‘made in the UK’ badge of honour.
I think a problem with that is what I mentioned above - how many far east bike factories are setup to produce frames in the way Orange produce frames? I'd hazard a guess that none are right now which means someone has to absorb initial setup costs etc. Of course Orange could just wang some stickers on a single pivot frame with the same angles as a Five but thats not a "real" Orange. I think they have to keep producing the frames here...
I had a neon green Alpine and wanted it resprayed on a warranty check but they discontinued that colour and neon pink which was my go to alternative.
My Sub 5 was red, a colour that they did not normally use but my LBS leaned heavily on Lester and I got my wish. (Greys and silver were the sanctioned colours, red was for the DH bikes). I believe he threatened to powder coat one red and stick a customised by Orange sticker on it!
I've never had an Orange, lusted badly after a Clockwork in the late 80s/early 90s and an Alpine in the 2010s, but never pulled the trigger. Not sure why. Some friends (north of England) have them and love them, and the place where I see them the most is PdS every summer - you can spot Les Rosbifs a mile off 🙂
The comments about the range getting a bit large and messy does seem accurate. You know when Ramsay goes into a failing restaurant and gets rid of the 20 page menu, replaced with one simple menu? Something like that should be possible.
A quick look at the website, clicked on 'bikes' and was meet with this. Wow, that seems an unfeasibly large range of bikes, to put it mildly.
This whole situation has, ironically, made me quite want one again...
how many far east bike factories are setup to produce frames in the way Orange produce frames?
Why on Earth would they produce frames like that? Which is no doubt a big part of why Orange are in difficulty.
Change is needed from the top down; adapt or disappear.
big scot nails it, with the very analogy I used when talking with a friend the other day.
Why on Earth would they produce frames like that? Which is no doubt a big part of why Orange are in difficulty.
Change is needed from the top down; adapt or disappear.
I suspect that if Orange adapted to "normal" frames, they'd be more likely to disappear.
The frame weights are comparable with some carbon bikes for sure.
Could that be why there have been frame failures? If they were a bit heavier would they be stronger?
They had a spate of frame crackings about 4 years ago.
I bought a used S6 frame which was found to be cracked, and replaced under warranty so I got the version with the revised welding (still a light frame). It lasted me three years and thousands of miles.
I've also had two more full-sus frames which have been fine (touch wood).
I’ve sent a link for this thread to a LinkedIn connection who works at Orange in the hope that some views outside the Orange bubble might be useful.
Why on Earth would they produce frames like that? Which is no doubt a big part of why Orange are in difficulty.
Change is needed from the top down;adaptlose their identity or disappear.
FTFY
I think there's a relevant point being made about bike companies feeling the pressure to have a product in their line-up catering to every emerging niche.
. Wow, that seems an unfeasibly large range of bikes, to put it mildly.
I'm not running a bike making factory but there are 5 hardtails (not including the gravel bikes and flat bar road bike) - Crush, P7, Clockwork, Clockwork Evo and Switch, each has slightly different travel fork from 120mm to 150mm, and different geometry, 3 different wheel size options 27.5, 29er and Mx, and 10 individual models, each with its own spec level...That's 20 different bikes* and 5 frame only options. Does that seem a bit confusing to anybody else?
*Doesn't include size options and wheel size options...I dread to think what the total SKU count is for just hardtail mountain bikes.
It was 2016-18 where they had a real problem with frame failures and from what I understand, by 2020 they were back on top of it. Defo dented their rep though.
I thought that when I looked through the hardtail range. A 120 and a 130mm version of the 29″ Clockwork and a 130mm and 140mm version of the 27.5″ Clockwork.
I agree that there's far too many but the shorter travel Clockwork is the budget option, the 130mm a better quality frame. Different bikes, so maybe need different names? I imagine the 27.5 versions need binning anyway but were probably ordered years back before they fell out of fashion. Post covid Orange had a lead time of up to 12 months on the hard tails from memory?
The 29er Clockwork used to be a 100mm xc bike, but as with others the travel increased as the market for short travel decreased. Problem is, the Crush/P7 maxed out around 140/50mm years back as I imagine longer travel HT's don't sell that well so the whole range has been compressed. I'd imagine they'd drop some if possible but covid ordering has left them with loads of unfashionable options?
True that - the modern Orange identity isn't for most, clearly.
Bikes (like most things) aren’t priced on what they cost, they are priced on what they think they’ll sell for. If it’s true that at one point they sold everything they could make then why would they reduce the price and make less money?
Last time I looked the price of raw aluminium sheets had rocketed and I know the electricity bill at my old job had more than doubled. While there’s some value to a lot of the comments on here, there’ll be a lot of other issues as to why companies are struggling which isn’t about product range and fashionable geometry.
Yeah, you used to very rarely see discounted Orange full suss. It kept the second hand prices high too, which was ace because you could buy a 5, ride it for a couple of years then swap it for a new one for sub 1k.
They also used to be comparable to Santa Cruz and the like. Even when they went carbon, the hand built aspect of the Orange kept them in the same company. These days it seems that most don't take in to account the extra cost of producing them in Halifax compared to the mass produced stuff and grumble that they don't cost the same as a Bird, Canyon or Nuke Proof.
Referring to further up the thread, the original Clockwork was £350 where as the hand built Formula was over £1000 and people were happy to pay. Another example is people going mad about the cost of the new Switch HT, another hand built frame. Same price as the Cotic Solaris, which isn't hand built in the UK. Seems aluminium is viewed as the cheap option, even when it probably costs more to make than a Far East, mass produced carbon frame or a Eastern/Central European factory built steel frame.
My LBS stocked Orange until fairly recently, last time I popped in it was mostly Mondrakers lots of them ebikes, presumably because there's greater demand.
A lot of good comments here, the Morgan cars analogy seems particularly apt. Single pivot aluminium could be a selling point for typical all year British riding, marketing needs to support that message. Made in England is a selling point for me but I'm just patriotic - an energy policy that supports UK based manufacturing and commerce (and cold poor people who can't afford to turn the heating on or use the cooker) should be a priority of the next government.
How can they fix it, price is coming up again and again. As for the range I think there's a place for light full sus short travel xc bikes. Surely all those new gravel riders in the UK are potential XC customers.
They let prices steadily creep up catering to brand loyal existing customers with disposable income and forgetting about the next generation of yet to be brand loyal customers who are priced out of their bikes. No idea how big their export market was, I'd imagine not that big. Make bikes that are desirable and affordable to younger riders or be a niche Morgan like company but with a shrinking market
A lot of good comments here, the Morgan cars analogy seems particularly apt. Single pivot aluminium could be a selling point for typical all year British riding, marketing needs to support that message. Made in England is a selling point for me but I’m just patriotic
Sounds a lot like an aluminium Starling
forgetting about the next generation of yet to be brand loyal customers who are priced out of their bikes
Maybe this as well. As far as I'm aware there are none of these riders who produce "sik edits" type things on YouTube etc on Oranges - the last I saw of that type was when Joe Barnes etc rode for them and there was lots of rut slapping fun on Fives/Alpines. Maybe there needs to be more of that kind of thing to help promote the brand again - riders doing what could be perceived as "cool" stuff, hell, maybe moreso than the racing element? Promotion of the brand via racing seems minimal given how little coverage racing gets at any level/discipline - so Orange sponsor (or did) a factory enduro team. The actual brand coverage that provides the brand must be pretty minimal - even as a spectator you see a rider go past on a bike and then a few seconds later, someone else on another bike... that kind of thing isn't going to want to make me buy that brand.
I'm getting into this now. Orange - call me if you need a hand 😀 Simplify the range, settle on 1 type of ebike motor, quit the racing stuff completely, sack off all the kids bikes, find a handful of decent riders who produce some good riding videos and sponsor them instead and gain exposure via steep tech/off-piste/50to01 type videos...
Surely all those new gravel riders in the UK are potential XC customers.
That's a leap!
As for the RX9, did anyone buy one who wasn't already an Orange owner/fanboi? They don't offer anything not available elsewhere (cheaper) and have nothing in common with what most people would recognise as the Orange brand.
*Doesn’t include size options and wheel size options…I dread to think what the total SKU count is for just hardtail mountain bikes.
I think there’s a relevant point being made about bike companies feeling the pressure to have a product in their line-up catering to every emerging niche.
Yep, it's a vast and confusing range that requires huge amounts of stock to service it all and yet the one niche they're missing is gravel bikes!
OK, there's one, the X9. But even that sort of seems to be aimed at the Orange fanboy MTBer who would naturally look to the same manufacturer for a gravel bike.
Canyon have half a dozen Grizl models, all at substantially lower prices and better spec than the one offering from Orange.
Edit: cross posted with @scotroutes who makes basically the same point.
So... the wisdom of the forum is... fewer models but more models... focus on ebikes, but don't offer so much choice of ebikes... look more modern, but bring back old colours and graphics... try and match the prices and marketing spend of the USA brands who are also struggling right now despite far cheaper Chinese manufacturing... less customisation and options like the big box UK seller, who had to bring in the administrators before them.
So… the wisdom of the forum is…
Yes, exactly!
Man, we should all get together and start our own bike company.
Looks like a reverse mullet to me.
Good job, that should keep everyone happy!
As for the RX9, did anyone buy one who wasn’t already an Orange owner/fanboi? They don’t offer anything not available elsewhere (cheaper) and have nothing in common with what most people would recognise as the Orange brand.
The RX9 might have become that as the last few versions look pretty dull and went insanely expensive (£2.2k for Apex, really?) to the point where even a fan like me couldn't justify one but actually they were way ahead of the curve originally, just as they were with other trends. Who else was offering a gravel bike in 2014 (and every year since)? Remember the film of the original RX9 being chucked about?
Who else was offering a gravel bike in 2014
Off the top of my head,
Surly.
Genesis.
Kona.
Van Nicholas.
Santa Cruz
Ibis.
So… the wisdom of the forum is…
That none of us has the first clue about how to run a bike company, let alone keep it going for 35 years?
Who else was offering a gravel bike in 2014
My Specialized Crux (admittedly originally marketed as a CX) is from 2014. But it's basically a gravel bike.
That none of us has the first clue about how to run a bike company, let alone keep it going for 35 years?
No but there's some good nuggets of info and a few ideas in the previous 5 pages.
Off the top of my head,
Yep, all in early before GB's blew up and everyone joined in. The point being they have been able to see which way the wind was blowing in the past, rather than jumping on an established band wagon to cash in, as was suggested.
So… the wisdom of the forum is… fewer models but more models… focus on ebikes, but don’t offer so much choice of ebikes… look more modern, but bring back old colours and graphics… try and match the prices and marketing spend of the USA brands who are also struggling right now despite far cheaper Chinese manufacturing… less customisation and options like the big box UK seller, who had to bring in the administrators before them.
Don't think I said any of that 😀
Who else was offering a gravel bike in 2014
The RX9 was marketed as a cross bike that could do more, like plenty of other cross bikes around at the time at lower prices. (The Cannondale CAADX was similarly marketed, for example.)
https://archive.orangebikes.co.uk/bike/2014/rx9/
WHY THE RX9?
The RX9 is the CX we've always wanted to build. Sure footed and fast. If you want ride options this bike will deliver the goods.
Man, we should all get together and start our own bike company.
Yeah, like that thing when a bunch of people on the internet get together and run a non-league football club? Always ends well...
Personally I wish Orange well and hope, for the sake of the people who work there in particular, that they find a way of continuing to trade without anyone being shafted in the process. That said, I've never really been drawn to them as a brand, to me they always felt a bit like one of those heritage British car brands - Lotus maybe - that you either feel is cool or not based more on their history than the current range.
I don't doubt that the current bikes are good - most modern mountain bikes tend to be - but it feels like you'd really have to want an Orange because you've historically bought into the brand. I guess they'll have their own research and stats on their customer base and I may be - probably am - wide of the mark, but that's how it feels to me. I don't know if that's a flaw with how their marketing and whether Brexit, Covid etc has royally screwed things up for them or if it's a balance of stuff, but if people aren't attracted to the brand in the first place, then the breadth or otherwise of the range isn't really the issue. But who knows.
Also, judging from the gangs of elderly e-mtbers round here - Peak District - a fair few heritage customers are maybe looking at e-bikes rather than high-end conventional mountain bikes, which can't really help.
Whyte had a range of what would be be called gravel bikes now in 2012 https://road.cc/content/review/60408-whyte-kings-cross
People were using CX bikes as winter hacks, commuters, forestry road bashers for a long time, the market caught up and started designing bikes to suit.
Whyte had a range of what would be be called gravel bikes now in 2012
Yeah, but other than Whyte, Specialized, Surly, Genesis, Kona, Van Nicholas, Santa Cruz and Ibis, who else was way ahead of the curve by offering a gravel bike in 2014?
FWIW I bought my Kona Sutra in 2007.
Fair enough, everyone was making gravel type bikes in 2014 and in no way did Orange get in early on a market that was about to explode.
That none of us has the first clue about how to run a bike company,
I'm inclined to agree, but i’m going to ... disagree…
It’s just a business. Lots of people run businesses.
I suspect many people on here have daydreamed about running a small bike company… but those daydreams have evaporated the moment they made it onto a spreadsheet. The numbers just don’t add up.
Add up salaries, and workshop rental, and admin, and etc. and you’re quickly looking at running costs well over £200k.
Making a couple of hundred quid profit per frame and we’d have to sell 1000 frames per year (Good luck with that – it’s a very crowded market).
It seems very likely that we will see other uk bike companies running into the buffers before too long. My internal spreadsheet says that the companies which survive will be the ones run as a side-hustle.
(where the person who owns/runs the company isn’t taking a full salary, but an amount based on an honest pro-rata value of the actual amount of time it takes to run the business)
Well none of us can solve Orange's woes without actually knowing why they were in the red for so long, anyway.
I'm a bit of a Whyte fan tbh but I'm going to chuck out that Whyte are a good example of a mid sized player in the UK market:
UK focused design, well priced, sensible spec, forward looking, widely available through lbs and online, 'likeable' brand but not trying too hard to be aspiration
I get the impression that Orange have been eaten from all angles. Not as boutique as SC, not as hi tech as spesh, too expensive V Whyte. Plus their core users have aged out.
Whyte are also a great example of changing your identity to make your brand far more palatable. Fair assumption that they sold many more T130s than PRST-1s
So… the wisdom of the forum is… fewer models but more models… focus on ebikes, but don’t offer so much choice of ebikes… look more modern, but bring back old colours and graphics… try and match the prices and marketing spend of the USA brands who are also struggling right now despite far cheaper Chinese manufacturing… less customisation and options like thebig box UK seller, who had to bring in the administrators before them.
that is the beauty of decision by committee!
Canyon have half a dozen Grizl models, all at substantially lower prices and better spec than the one offering from Orange.
I’m not particularly picking on this one quote. But it’s an example of something I’m seeing in this thread and the who next thread. A dealer network isn’t something that most consumers on this forum value.
