Back in the day though they were all hand made in Halifax.
I don't think that's correct - I'd be very surprised if my (very) early Orange turned out to be UK made, and the same for every Orange I rode in the '90s. I was always under the impression that the Clockwork, Prestige & Aluminium O (and later variants) were built overseas, and comments in this thread support that.
The top-end and race bikes may well have been Yorkshire built, but Pace they weren't.
Shame if they go I had an Original Clockwork that I had for years as my main XC bike then used it as a commuter then I got Lee Cooper cycles to convert the rear to sliding dropouts and rode it for years as a Singlespeed. Tried a P7 but never got on with it and sold it on. Personally, I never liked the looks of their full-suspension bikes.
Sorry to hear this.
As someone with a design/manufacturing/engineering background I have a certain pride in UK made products without feels too jingoistic. Whilst I test rode a couple way back, Orange has always been a brand I was glad existed but never imagined buying. I guess the problem is that an increasingly large number of people felt the same. You can't finance a company on warm thoughts alone.
The irony is that the single pivot five, built a bit burly to stand a bit of abuse and wear and tear (rather than riding like a god) is probably more appealing to me now, more than ever. It almost feels like the right recipe for someone looking to ride for fun, ride a lot and keep the cost of keeping it maintained from getting out of control....as long as it's not too expensive to buy in the first place. 1X and better shock technology should have made it more rather than less relevant.
Back in the day though they were all hand made in Halifax. They then shifted to ‘hand built’ in the UK (bit patronising) but kept charging the high prices. There was lots of chat about it on here at the time.
Completely wrong, but don't let that stop you.
Was going to say, they are still handbuilt in Halifax aren't they? The sheet metal owners do some bits and then the Holywell Green factory stick all the bits together?
For the kind of riding I do, I can't imagine a better bike than my Five Evo. Absolutely love it... Cheap they aren't but then what decent "premium" bikes are these days?
We've had a response from Orange and updated the story.
@the-muffin-man
"…to let the cycle press know before their staff is bad form." - Just wanted to clarify that bit. Orange didn't let us know anything in advance. Singletrack had other info on the goings on at Orange (Companies House etc...) but we were trying to get a confirmation from Orange before breaking the story. Unfortunately, Carlton at Forbes ran with it anyway, so we followed suit once the story was out there.
Quick edit - while I was typing this, we HAVE now had a response from Orange. It's in the updated story above.
Thanks for the update Mark.
Hopefully they can continue to trade.
Hopefully they can continue to trade.
Often the idea/point for administration, consultancy i used to word for operated in administration for just over 2 years before all sorted out and then continue after (with some selling / acquisitions etc.)
markdoyle
I really wanted an Orange stage 6 . I loved the single pivot design, simple to maintain but I could never afford the price. I went for a Specialzed Stumpjumper Comp Carbon in the end as it was a much more affordable bike.
moonsaballoon
I almost bought an Orange stage 5 last year but ended up with a ibis ripmo AF as it was considerably cheaper and a better spec
I guess that's the reality - when times are tough, and folks who actually like and want your product still end up choosing something else, then you are going to struggle.
Completely wrong, but don’t let that stop you.
Ok well tell the correct story then ?
Orange Bikes and its associated companies are currently working with Specialist Business Rescue Advisory firm J9 Advisory, with a view to restructuring the businesses in order to provide a viable platform to service our customers in the best way possible, safeguarding jobs and ensuring the continuation and strength of the Orange Bikes business moving forwards.
That's exactly the same (apparently 'morally dubious') process I was talking about. Reboot the company without any debt...
Ok well tell the correct story then ?
I did, a page or two back. Long story short, only the folded aluminium frames, from the late 90's on were hand made in the UK, all the rest, including the original Clockwork, Prestige, P7, Elite, Vitamin T, C16, O, etc, etc. have been sourced from the Far East. I can point you in the direction of an early 90's MBUK article about Orange and Pace where it's discussed if you want? The only exception I am aware of is the late 80's, very early 90's steel Formula that they got various frame builders to make to order, before Steve Wade made the last few, usually for mates.
chestrockwell
Maybe I am confusing you? When Orange started they only made the folded aluminium frames. It was an off shoot of an engineering firm where the engineers like riding bikes too so they started making their own.
The USP was they looked industrial and were hand made in Halifax. They became popular very quickly and people bought in to it as they were locally made/manufactured and were pretty unique in their day. They then introduce all the far east stuff you suggest above, and shifted production of the folded frames too, but still kept the high prices of the folded frames high but changed from 'hand made' to 'hand built' - I suppose getting a bike out of a box and putting the bas and pedals is building it. This peed alot of people off at the time.
I dont think they recovered since, also the problem of having such a unique looking USP, same with cars if too obvious it can date you.
Looking at the updated statement it doesnt look great - looking like cash flow issues. At least they are trying to sort it before administrators
Maybe I am confusing you? When Orange started they only made the folded aluminium frames. It was an off shoot of an engineering firm where the engineers like riding bikes too so they started making their own.
Its a bit off topic, seeing as we are talking about administration, but that's just not correct.
Orange were selling Far East built Clockworks from 1988/89 onwards. I remember being very jealous of a kid at school that had one while I had to make do with my specialized hardrock.
Aluminium full suspension bikes came later.
A not aluminium Orange.
Yep, wasn't the Clockwork the first Orange,and the X1 the first full suss.
Sorry @FunkyDunc but Orange were doing bikes long before the folded aluminium bikes...they didn't start with those...unsure where you have read that info but it is very wrong...
Probably a good place to leave this
I'd say I was accidentally brainwashed into wanting an Orange from an early age. I used to be a member of UYC and Lester, Wade and their families used to come down regularly and I used to see the VW camper van and all their branded logo all the time, along with seeing the bikes quite often too. As soon as I got into MTB the only bike for me was an orange and I was not disappointed whatsoever, excellent service, warranty support and I feel the price reflected the fact they were handbuilt in the UK in a town I spent a good amount of my youth growing up in. Halifax and Elland. Supporting good paying UK jobs and they were often kitted out with Hope components another local/ British company. For that reason along with the excellent spec and reviews they had I couldn't say no, yes they cost a bit more but that money goes/went into supporting the local economy. I work in the fish industry and completely advocate the same approach for sourcing British produce as it's better for both the UK economy and the quality difference is night and day.
As mentioned above however, as the bike is/was built like a tank it's still going strong and can easily get at least another 2/3 years out of it, I've had it 9 years this year and it will be passed down to my younger son to ride, once I replace it. Provided they are still going I will buy again or get a second hand one if not.
It's a brand with a great back story and fantastic history IMO which also cements part of the reasons why I choose to support them.
One thing I would also say is, from a business point of view the range is far too big and has too much crossover. Focus on your key lines and concentrate on making them be best sellers, ticking boxes to please all is both costly and poor business sense. One thing that also made them unique the colour schemes and graphics, a huge USP which since 2015 they have almost completely toned down and got rid off them. I had a neon green Alpine and wanted it resprayed on a warranty check but they discontinued that colour and neon pink which was my go to alternative. I genuinely believe quite a few people myself included were swayed by the crazy colour schemes and bold graphics. If you tie in these changes and the downturn of sales etc this seems to be perhaps a contributing factor.
Back to the range size, they really only need
1 DH bike
1trail bike - 5 with 27.5/29 option
1 enduro bike - alpine
2 hard tails models 1 aggressive & 1 trail - crush /clockwork only in 27.5/29
1 kids bike
1 commuter/hybrid
1 lightweight ebike for trail and 1 heavy weight enduro ebike.
The above covers pretty much all categories of their target audience, component choices as well are overcomplicated with too much crossover, they should have 1 budget ,1 mid and 1 high end of each, then offer a complete custom/boutique service for those who want to completely DIY on certain models. Take a look at Bird bikes I have one of their hard tails and the business model and build options they offer are brilliant and clearly works in a business semse.🤷
Just my 20P worth
Orange were selling Far East built Clockworks from 1988/89 onwards. I remember being very jealous of a kid at school that had one while I had to make do with my specialized hardrock
A guy in the year above me at school (early/mid 90's) had a steel Clockwork. It was far and away the nicest bike in the school bike parking!
I had a steel Saracen...
But yes, those steel hardtails were the original Orange bikes; the full sus "sheet metal" stuff began in about 1998/99.
1 DH bike
1trail bike – 5 with 27.5/29 option
1 enduro bike – alpine
2 hard tails models 1 aggressive & 1 trail – crush /clockwork only in 27.5/29
1 kids bike
1 commuter/hybrid
1 lightweight ebike for trail and 1 heavy weight enduro ebike.
Not even sure the range needs to be this big.
DH bikes - how many people buy DH frames/bikes anymore? Think I'd be tempted to pull the plug (even if temporarily) on the big bikes and focus on the core range.
1 trail - yep.
1 "enduro" - yep.
Hardtails - yep, 1 trail/general all rounder and one at the more extreme end of the scale.
Kids bikes - sack those off. The number of people wanting to buy their rapidly growing offspring a £1000+ bike must be pretty small.
Hybrid/commuter bikes - sack those off as well.
Include a gravel bike for those who are that way inclined.
E-bikes - whatever people want here, big one and a less big one for people who can't be arsed to pedal.
6/7 core range of no-nonsense premium bikes that if you're focusing on a smaller range, should (maybe) mean you're able to reduce costs to build and pass some of that cost save onto the consumer.
Oh and whilst I'm at it, stick stupid gimmicks like bike gloveboxes where the sun don't shine. Give people a free bum bag or something instead.
Thanks for sharing that Orange snippet. £350 for a Tange hardtail with amazing paint and mid range kit? £1,300 for the full blown team replica? Those were the days!!! Makes me feel very nostalgic and I can distinctly remember the joy of scouring printed media in the days before the internet.
I am sure somebody will chime in with a calculation involving inflation shortly, but it does feel like the equivalent today would not be £350 x inflation over time.
For my next one I'm going to get the begging book out for a custom neon pink one 🤣.
It's like they have gotten a little lost since Ashley took over in 2016, Lester and Noble clearly knew their customers and made sure they concentrated on them, loyalty and reputation are the two most important factors for any business which sells something. No offence to Ashley but it seems they have tried to diversify too much and forgotten their core bread and butter customers. I was gutted when they told me I couldn't get my frame painted in the same neon green colour scheme, and also that the decals were not the same either. Small things but finer details make the difference between a sale and a lost sale and or a happy customer who will return. The customer is king, they pay the bills, the wages and keep the lights on so do everything within reason to retain them.
You look after your customers and make sure they get what they want and they will always come back, this will also incrementally increase sales through word of mouth.
Perhaps a back to basics approach, drastically reduce the range, bring back the colour schemes and graphics, get quality control sorted on welds, image is also everything along with reputation, having forums slagging of cracked frames and cosmetically poor welds will do no business any favours.
Up against direct sales, cost of living and huge competitors they need to corner their niche market and concentrate on that alone and they will be ok. I fully agree with the above about the far east models, the pricing on those is far too high and is what pushed me towards Bird bikes hard tail, along with the fact they couldn't be had on the cycle scheme at the time, if they were also handmade frames in the UK however it would have been an easier choice. As a business you need to take a strong look at your competition, and see what they are doing well and cherry pick things and incorporate them into Oranges business model.
Yes your on the money like, DH maybe a frame only option as although a small market the history/prestige means that they would shift a few of them.
The kids bikes market is almost cornered off by Carrerra/specialized/giant etc as they are cheap, ok spec, but most importantly kids grow and only the 1% can afford to be buying £1000 bikes for their kids on an almost yearly basis as they get too big for the bikes.
Social media is another aspect I feel they are seriously lacking on, it's unfortunately mediocre at best. Socials are the best free advertising tool for any business, small investments in time reap huge financial rewards when done correctly. Missing a sitter as they say.
Their key markets are for reliability, simplicity and alternative/niche looks like the frame styles and colour schemes. I feel since they have changed the colours, graphics and iconic 5 swing arm amongst other things they have pushed away returning customers.
Anyone still regularly riding their old Sub 5 or am I the last??
but it does feel like the equivalent today would not be £350 x inflation over time.
and you'd be right, a boggo clockwork retails at £1500
https://www.orangebikes.com/bikes/clockwork-29/2023
Of course its hard to apply general price inflation to specific sectors, especially the bike industry where theres a lot more tech on newer bikes (e.g. forks and disc brakes) which add to the overall price.
Interesting looking at that inflation calculator, but having said that, I applied it to my own experience and was a little surprised.
I bought a 2002 Patriot from sunset, early 2003 at a discount. Paid £1300 for base spec, deore mostly but it had Fox forks which were only just appearing back then, and slowly upgraded it over time.
Inflation calculator takes that to £2260 now. I see sunset are selling last years base spec alpine for 3k, so although it’s more, I was surprised it’s not that much more. Anyhoo, that probably doesn’t add much to the thread but I was expecting quite a lot worse than that.
DaveyBoyWonder
Free MemberNot even sure the range needs to be this big.
TBH when you never know from one year to the next what sort of bike is in and what everyone thinks they need, it's probably pretty easy to get carried away and cover every single niche, for fear of being left behind. E-bikes alone have moved really fast, one minute everyone wants an enduro bike and the next enduro bikes got bigger as if in an attempt to reduce their actual demand, wheel sizes change with the phase of the moon...
But also the range is probably not as many parts as it looks, I'd not be surprised if there's shared triangles or more between mullet and 29er bikes frinstance, the switch and stage 7 look to be at least the same front end. And for Orange, being relatively smallscale and handmade and all UK and inhouse, they won't need to carry a ton of frames in stock in order to cover demand. I don't know if they actually build or paint on demand but it'd be possible at least, maybe some of those options only exist on the website. And that could really leverage the strength of the company vs "order a container of frames and wait 3 months"
OTOH, they have 4 different 29er hardtails. Is the Crush and the Clockwork Evo the same frame with a different fork? Who knows.
But as a punter it's pretty bewildering.
Also, with e-bikes, they use systems from different manufacturers… for many reasons… not least perhaps because some people are dead set for/against each different one. That adds to the number of models, as you can’t just switch motor brands using the same frame. So to sell to both fans/haters of a motor brand, you need a variety of motor suppliers, multiple frames to fit them to, and offer more models than you otherwise would.
Yep, must be a nightmare for companies of that sort of size. I mean, probably a nightmare for smaller ones too but in their case a nightmare you can't really do anything about.
Feeling rather sad about it all, having had two brand new Orange frames in recent years, as of last night both have gone to people on here which is good ( and does demonstrate the appeal to those who 'get' them).
Everyone I've spoke to online and in real life (tm) says the same thing - far, far, far too many bikes.
Agree with most of the above: Bin the DH bike (who, honestly, is buying a DH bike these days other than someone serious about using it for actual, proper racing. And those people, I'm sorry, are not buying an Orange....). Bin the kids bikes. Bin the hybrids and curly bar stuff for now.
Trail bike. 29 inch wheels.
Enduro bike - Mullet/29 options.
Maybe a steel hardtail and an 'aggro' folded alloy hardtail/jib bike.
Two off the shelf colours per frame.
Even for a fan like me, the current range is bonkers.
Thats it. Sod the e-bikes too for a few years, they will never compete and I bet there are minimal people who both a)want a motor and b)would buy an orange anyway.
Shot in the dark but hopefully someone from orange takes a look at the comments and gets some real feedback and insight from past and current customers, reasons why they may/may not be a repeat customer as of present and perhaps one of the reasons for the decline.
If you don't know where your going wrong you can't fix it. 🤷
They may even toy with the idea of updating the website and going completely direct to customer sales, this would allow a slight cut in pricing and help them be more competitive Vs other brands. Especially when budgets are very very tight those who would buy an orange physically can't because of the current financial shit heap this country is in at the minute.
Anyone still regularly riding their old Sub 5 or am I the last??
Regular, maybe not, but the T130 isn’t getting any more miles either. Need to get back off-road properly rather than fairly flat bimbles.
chestrockwell
Maybe I am confusing you? When Orange started they only made the folded aluminium frames. It was an off shoot of an engineering firm where the engineers like riding bikes too so they started making their own.
Nope, not confusing this massive Orange nerd at all. You're welcome to come and have a look at my 1988, 89, or either of my two 1992 Clockwork's if you are ever in the area. The 88 gets extra nerd points for being one of the first 50 ever built (in the Far East 😉 )
If you are interested the link below will give you an idea of the history up to the hand made bikes.
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/v/Manufacturer+Archive/Orange+Archive/Orange+Catalogues/
Thats it. Sod the e-bikes too for a few years, they will never compete and I bet there are minimal people who both a)want a motor and b)would buy an orange anyway
with their chunky diwntubes i always thought orange couldve nade an ebike that just looked like a normal oray!
I agree with there being far too many bikes but wonder if, for the hand built stuff at least, they keep some models available simply because they could make a few if requested? The tooling will be done so easy enough to build a few more? Looking at the range, a fair few are getting long in the tooth and have really been replaced already so my musings would make sense to me.
Wonder how many 27.5 bikes they're selling atm too? Could easily drop those but then you are getting rid of the 5 and Alpine so maybe a slimed down model range and a bit of re-naming wouldn't go amiss? If they can get the RX9 gravel bike down to a sensible price (sub 2k) then I'd keep that before the 27.5 bikes. The Crush and the Clockwork are different frames but over the years the Clockwork's travel has crept up meaning it looks similar. Under Steve and Lester they were always good at following trends and getting ahead of the curve. Seems they still try to do that without shedding the chaff.
As for the neon colours, I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, one time when I was up there bothering them for something or other we discussed the neon and it was dropped because it needed a white base coat followed by the neon finish and it was prone to fading. My atomic orange Segment was very close though so they should defo bring that back.
I got a Stage Evo in the sale recently. At the time thought this might happen. Having ridden a lot of bikes I can confirm it rides nicely, surprisingly nicely to be honest. Geometry dialled, suspension well behaved, no creaks or rattles...it's fun too. There's a lot of work gone into the frame. Obviously I will be less pleased if it happens to crack, but happy so far.
I think Orange face an uphill struggle against a perception that carbon and complicated suspension linkages are better, when often that's not true. I've been guilty of this. The website could do with more explanation of why they do things how they do and the benefits. Agree with those saying too many models.
Pricing (of the UK made suspension bikes) has confused me for a while. I understand why it costs more to have stuff manufactured here. But at the same time Orange save on not outsourcing to another company, no shipping costs or import duty, and no local distributor. Simpler R&D, tooling and not having linkages and dozens of bearings should yield a cost saving too. And yet Orange aren't really competitive at full price. Going by my experience they seem perfectly capable of selling direct so that would be one way to make pricing more attractive.
Bikes (like most things) aren't priced on what they cost, they are priced on what they think they'll sell for. If it's true that at one point they sold everything they could make then why would they reduce the price and make less money?
Last time I looked the price of raw aluminium sheets had rocketed and I know the electricity bill at my old job had more than doubled. While there's some value to a lot of the comments on here, there'll be a lot of other issues as to why companies are struggling which isn't about product range and fashionable geometry.
Orange do this
https://www.orangebikes.com/bikes/phase-mx-pro/2023
Which is around the spec, motor and componentry of a fair few others like say Privateer, Whyte etc... but it's £2000-2500 more than their offerings.. But why, what does it give you over theirs... i don't really know. Once you start throwing in reduced bikes from Trek, from Orbea, Specialized, why would you buy an Orange.
Companies like Santa Cruz can limit this by being 'boutique' but Orange seem to have lost that feeling.. They don't feel 'special' do they ? You don't sit there looking and hankering after one.
Trek and Specialized etc are away from the boutique and into the Ford/Toyota of big showroom with lots of shiny things and great backup/spares/presence, so again, Orange are not in that either...
For me, they need an identity or a pricing.... at the moment, they have neither.
Also, with e-bikes, they use systems from different manufacturers… for many reasons… not least perhaps because some people are dead set for/against each different one. That adds to the number of models, as you can’t just switch motor brands using the same frame. So to sell to both fans/haters of a motor brand, you need a variety of motor suppliers, multiple frames to fit them to, and offer more models than you otherwise would.
I'd say screw that if I owned a bike company. Choose one motor brand who I thought was the better one and build the ebike range around them, not go trying to satisfy "fans" of a specific motor brand (jesus, is that where we are now, fans of specific motors on a bike?).
say Privateer, Whyte etc… but it’s £2000-2500 more than their offerings.. But why, what does it give you over theirs… i don’t really know.
Handbuilt frame rather than something developed in the UK but made in some faceless far east factory. As I mentioned in a previous comment, I'd rather go for a UK developed frame/bike vs a UK developed AND built frame/bike if it saved me thousands (not that I'd ever buy a Privateer or Whyte). Thing is, as soon as Orange stop building their full sus frames from folded alloy sheet they lose their identity so I don't think they can.
Companies like Santa Cruz can limit this by being ’boutique’ but Orange seem to have lost that feeling.. They don’t feel ‘special’ do they ? You don’t sit there looking and hankering after one.
Trek and Specialized etc are away from the boutique and into the Ford/Toyota of big showroom with lots of shiny things and great backup/spares/presence, so again, Orange are not in that either…
I think you're right. Whilst I've owned Santa Cruz bikes in the past and have zero intention of owning another (UK riding conditions, multiple pivots/bearings and crap tyre clearance - nah), Orange don't seem to be there anymore as a boutique brand (they were though in the 2000s). They're more a Morgan than an Aston Martin - plugging away at doing things their own way even though people might not get it/appreciate the looks but for those in the know, they're superb things. The difference is, whilst Morgan will never sell a handful of cars, Orange I'm sure could get back to selling a shed full of bikes.
I think in part they need to actually ignore whats going on in the wider biking world and do kind of what I see Cotic doing. Do Cotic make a million full bouncers with suspension travel going up in 10mm increments? Do they bollocks. Do they get sucked into having a trail bike, a down country bike, an up country bike, an alpine bike, an enduro bike, a DH bike, a XC race bike, a bike packing bike etc etc etc. This is all marketing bollocks - nobody needs a 120mm bike, a 130mm bike, a 140mm bike etc - sell a 160/170mm enduro/alpine weapon and a 140mm/150mm trail/all day bike.
This is all marketing bollocks – nobody needs a 120mm bike, a 130mm bike, a 140mm bike etc – sell a 160/170mm enduro/alpine weapon and a 140mm/150mm trail/all day bike.
I thought that when I looked through the hardtail range. A 120 and a 130mm version of the 29" Clockwork and a 130mm and 140mm version of the 27.5" Clockwork. 😳
That 4 sets of forks and 2 sets of wheels/tyres stocked for what is basically one bike. Just build a 130mm 29" Clockwork and have done with it!
