Tell me again about how inclusive we are, about how people should be free to live their lives. The indicators are all in the wrong direction for one section of the community.
You're comparing results of surveys that bear no relation to one another - one has data going back to early 1980s, the other has data going back to 2019. Come back in 34 years time and see where we're at.
It's only in recent years that the Trans debate has come into mainstream media so attitudes are bound to spike.
Back in the 80s the only time any such thing was talked about was when someone chatted a 'bird' up in a nightclub only to be a little surprised later in the evening.
Are they bound to spike? If anything they'd spike the other way wouldn't they?
20-odd percent less acceptance than 4 years ago, that is a big change. Why were so many for and now against? What has changed that opinion?
What has changed that opinion?
Linguistics? I reckon that more folk than ever have become aware of the difference between sex and gender due to the ongoing debates. If that same question was about gender then it may have ellicited a different response.
Are they bound to spike? If anything they’d spike the other way wouldn’t they?
Unless my old grey matter is failing me there wasn't the huge push for acceptance among the gay community during the 80s/90s that there is among the Trans movement now - just a gradual acceptance of gay people among society.
I can easily see why there is a short-term backwards hardening of attitudes. The approach is harder and more forceful so people will harden their attitudes in response - in a "I won't be told what to think" way.
On that graph in the link you can also see there's a drop of approx. 30% by 1987 in peoples attitudes to same-sex relationships. A few years after Aids was first discovered in the UK. It rises gradually after that.
Linguistics? I reckon that more folk than ever have become aware of the difference between sex and gender due to the ongoing debates. If that same question was about gender then it may have ellicited a different response.
I don't think a proportion of the population at least does make such a differentiation - and in any case the report says 'transgender' which despite saying gender doesn't really differentiate
"64% describe themselves as not prejudiced at all against people who are transgender, a decline of 18 percentage points since 2019 (82%)"
In the same spirit as looking like, quacking like - we can try to rationalise by language and methodologies, but the reality is pretty clear to anyone close to it, and being driven further by (RW) <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">politicians, the mainstream press, and personalities.</span>
Yay to liberalism, empowerment and madness! How on earth is this fair or right?
(apologies for the DM link).
Or one could try this slightly less emotional article that doesn't appear to have an agenda
Strange that this 'madness' with this particular athlete has been going on since 2018 and no one has batted an eyelid.
You'd think people would have noticed the trail of broken bodies in her wake.
entirely possible that she just isn't that good of a boxer, so is not dominant despite allegedly raised testosterone levels. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯Strange that this ‘madness’ with this particular athlete has been going on since 2018 and no one has batted an eyelid.You’d think people would have noticed the trail of broken bodies in her wake.
It reads like there's maybe some kind of intersex thing going on, rather than she having been born a man? It's tricky though as the organisation/individual that previously banned her sounds a bit shady, but if I'm reading it correctly the IOC don't test for testosterone at all now, instead relying on the honour system?
It reads like there’s maybe some kind of intersex thing going on, rather than she having been born a man?
I guess it depends on how much you trust the Russians when it comes to sporting fairness and cultural issues related to gender.
I’ve just seen that article. Apparently the female was getting battered. Just not fair at all.
Nice dig, they're both female. Watch the fight and see if you still hold the same opinion.
Well some of us have been concerned for a long time about the erosion of a woman’s right to compete against other women. But we usually get shouted down and called transphobic. Usually by men.
Well, maybe if you didn't seem so desperate to jump to a particular conclusion people wouldn't call you transphobic so often?
Just a thought...
I disagree that sport has been “selected” as a proxy battle ground for anything else. I think it’s exactly what it purports to be – one part of the broader discussion around women’s rights versus trans women’s rights.
This even extends to within the LBGTQ+ community, where many trans rights activists are strongly opposed to lesbian women meeting at all unless they include ‘male lesbians’. In recent years in some countries, eg Australia and some US states, it’s actually been made illegal for lesbian women to meet in this way. It’s a real and imminent threat to many people.
I've recently returned from Germany, where I attended two Pride parades in different cities. What was very noticeable, compared to Pride parades I've attended in the past, was the significant absence of older Lesbian women. So it was mainly Gay men, younger Lesbians, and a significant number of straight women. Pride was once a protest for greater equality and inclusion for Lesbian and Gay people. It seems now to be much more of a corporate 'Pridewashing' type event. Most older Lesbian women I know would not attend a Pride event, for what they see as it being hijacked by those who wish to exclude gender critical women.
I had to escort my wife and a friend to a feminist conference a couple of years ago, after social media reports of a group of 'pro trans' demonstrators threatening women attending the event. When we go to the venue, there was indeed a group of very loud, aggressive young people screaming abuse at any women going in. As a man, I recognise this kind of aggression as very 'male'. Indeed, it was coming from young men.
I can easily see why there is a short-term backwards hardening of attitudes. The approach is harder and more forceful so people will harden their attitudes in response – in a “I won’t be told what to think” way.
'Backwards'? Alternatively, it could be that increasing numbers of people are becoming more aware about the issues, and forming better informed opinions. Thankfully, we are starting to move away from a situation where women have been threatened, attacked, cancelled and sacked for stating their beliefs and facts. In sports, it's good to see that sporting bodies are adopting a more thoughtful and non-destructive approach when it comes to womens' rights. It's good to see more and more female athletes coming forward and speaking out against the injustice of being forced to compete against biological males.
I have a niece who is trans. She wants to be a boy. She presents as very masculine. In the past, she'd have been labelled a Tomboy and had all sorts of abuse. She competes very well in sports, and wins competitions against boys. However, that is all about to come crashing down as she's on the cusp of puberty, and is likely to follow the family trait of a very 'womanly' body type. Such is nature. I hope she grows up into a society where gender isn't an issue, that she can be who she is without prejudice. And that she is happy.
As regards identity; I'm sure many people of colour would like to experience equality and the privilege that having white skin brings. Because no matter how you identify culturally, you will still be judged on the colour of your skin. This is a social reality. And Race, like Gender, is also a social construct.
not much, which is why I said they sounded shady, hence it was trickyI guess it depends on how much you trust the Russians when it comes to sporting fairness and cultural issues related to gender.
I think some folk should really read the RTE article and then put their heads on their desk for a while until they calm down.
How did you know they were straight?
Interesting that in all of the long piece I posted, that's the line you've picked up on.
There's always LOTS of straight women at Pride events. Pride is one event where many women, regardless of sexuality, can feel safe and free from harassment by men. Many straight young women I know, go to Pride events all over the place. Very few straight men I know, go. Having been to countless Pride events since the early 90s, I've developed a sense of this. And I've noticed the significant decline in older Lesbian women attending, over the last few years.
How did you know they were straight?
I’ve developed a sense of this.
Clearly has a gaydar everyone, so no need to question
I have a niece who is trans. She wants to be a boy. She presents as very masculine. In the past, she’d have been labelled a Tomboy and had all sorts of abuse. She competes very well in sports, and wins competitions against boys. However, that is all about to come crashing down as she’s on the cusp of puberty, and is likely to follow the family trait of a very ‘womanly’ body type. Such is nature. I hope she grows up into a society where gender isn’t an issue, that she can be who she is without prejudice. And that she is happy.
Sounds like you have a nephew.
Imane Khelif had no place to be in the ring, to have such a muscle development advantage due to testosterone over another similar weight fighter and to be allowed to compete makes an absolute mockery of the sport
It's interesting watching the forum unanimously condemning the gullibility of people for sharing falsehoods on one thread. And then seeing, in many cases, the same people falling for the exact same thing when it comes to an issue even tangentially related to transgender rights because the narrative they are fed happens to align with their predjudices.
Once again, read the RTE article before giving us your nuclear hot take. It even has this helpful comment from the IBA:
Update: In the hours after this article was first published, the International Boxing Association (IBA) circulated a new public statement to international media. In it, the IBA says the disqualifications of the boxers were based on "recognised testing."
The statement says: "the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognised test, whereby the specifics remain confidential. This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors."
It said the decisions were ratified by the IBA Board of Directors.
And if you happen to find a source for why these athletes should be banned that is more credible than a corrupt Russian's Telegram post then feel free to share it.
What’s that based on?
They have XY chromosomes and levels of testosterone that are equivalent to a male of similar age/weight/height
Still time to read the RTE article before the edit window expires.
They have XY chromosomes and levels of testosterone that are equivalent to a male of similar age/weight/height
IS that confirmed, do you know? I don't mean to be argumentative, you understand - I know the now-unsanctioned Rusdian federation DQ'd them, but it's not like they haven't been tested here (or in Tokyo).
Princejohn - actually she has differences in sexual development . Female presenting but genetically male in this case.
tjagainFull Member
Princejohn – actually she has differences in sexual development . Female presenting but genetically male in this case.
As Pondo asked earlier, that hasn't actually been confirmed, has it?
Princejohn – actually she has differences in sexual development . Female presenting but genetically male in this case.
Actually, we have no idea about anything yet as the sole source of information is a Russian IBA official's Telegram post.
Yes, it sounds like these athletes may have DSD/intersex characteristics (if we take what the IBA are saying at face value) but there's a reason they stopped doing chromosome tests in 1999. In many cases having XY chromosomes has no effect on athletic performance and only serves to stigmatise women.
Which is basically what we are seeing here. Just a couple of unfortunate casualties in the culture wars.
Which is basically what we are seeing here. Just a couple of unfortunate casualties in the culture wars.
And I further added to the inflammatory discussion by jumping to assumptions after reading a number of reports, an hr or so later of further reading has left me sitting on the naughty step waving a white flag.
Sounds like you have a nephew.
No; I have a niece. She was born female, and will remain female. She wants to be a boy, and wants to be treated as a boy. She knows she is not a boy though. Myself and every single other family member will always know her as a girl. How we treat her is another matter. But facts cannot and will not be thought policed from our heads.
The way forward is to help her to welcome the body she has, to love who she really is, and not try to make her feel she is in the 'wrong body'. Right now, I don't know how to do that, and more importantly neither do her parents. Which is why they are having counselling and therapy.
Depressing that there's a paucity of actual empathy and understanding coming from certain individuals on here. And unsurprising that some people seem intent on bending all of us to their will. What happened to mutual respect?
Depressing that there’s a paucity of actual empathy and understanding coming from certain individuals on here.
Could do with looking in a mirror.
I feel very sorry for Khelif, she’s in an impossible situation. She is not a trans woman, she is a women blessed / cursed with male characteristics who loves sport, like Caster Semenya before her.
Thanks, somafunk:-)
she is a women blessed / cursed with male characteristics who loves sport, like Caster Semenya before her.
Again, we know nothing at this point.
Even if it turns out these athletes have XY chromosomes (a single unreliable source is all we have to back this up), the presence of which doesn't automatically convey an advantage in sport.
Only a small number of DSD conditions/intersex characteristics actually result in the women in question having an advantage.
She was born female, and will remain female.
That is not your call to make it is for the individual to decide. They will make their own mind up in time, you and the rest of your family need to give them the space and no pressure to decide what is best for them.
No-one can decide what sex they are.
That is not your call to make it is for the individual to decide
You cannot 'decide' to be something you are not. However, if someone wants to be treated as feminine or masculine I have no problem with that at all. Gender isn't a binary thing; more a spectrum. As a human social construct, it is fairly arbitrary anyway. It is well past time we got over traditional gender boundaries. We need to move to a post gender state, where gender is no longer an issue. We are still some way off that of course, and maybe we'll never get there. But Science and Medicine needs to have clear definitions for obvious reasons. My niece will never suffer from testicular cancer, for example. But ovarian cancer is a real risk, so she will need screening for that. That is where biology is vitally important. But how she presents in public is entirely up to her, and I 100% support her right in that regard. But she will always remain biologically female.
“I think what you might be better off saying is no-one can decide for another person what gender they are”
I’ll stick with what I said. ‘Gender’ seems to change its meaning every 10 minutes and depending on whom you are talking to, so I have no opinion on it.
‘Gender’ seems to change its meaning every 10 minutes and depending on whom you are talking to
No it doesn't.
Yes it does.
