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YouTube is much harder to make money from than people think. The subscriber numbers being talked about here wouldn’t solve the problem
https://influencermarketinghub.com/youtube-money-calculator/
YouTube is much harder to make money from than people think. The subscriber numbers being talked about here wouldn’t solve the problem
Well that depends if you focus on YT articles and subscribers instead of other content like magazine articles. I'm sure there's a way to get the required numbers but i don't understand people who sit and watch TouTube stuff myself. I occasionally watch a tech article, like last week was a Hope Tech3 bleed technique... but i rarely watch 'articles' in most other contexts.
They are of course missing an open goal on the marketing front...
...they need to do a [b]Happy Valley Special[/b]! Get Sarah Lancashire owt in them there hills and spam social media with it! Do a cycle route of popular murder spots. Boom - millions of hits! They've probably even filmed in Tod! 🤣
but i don’t understand people who sit and watch TouTube stuff myself. I occasionally watch a tech article, like last week was a Hope Tech3 bleed technique… but i rarely watch ‘articles’ in most other contexts.
But I suspect, looking at the numbers, you are in the minority. Lots of channels out there getting millions of views, even mediocre ones getting tens of thousands. I personally much prefer it to reading an article. On the travel stuff mentioned above, I'd much rather watch someone riding at a destination than read about it, but I'm sure there is a place for both. There is already a lot of great content on youTube but I can see STW shaped hole for their kind of journalism.
we’re all different though of course, i’d love to read about (if i read magazines) how Charlie went to BPW and nailed a red, ate a burger and experienced Merthyr on a Friday night… but i doubt many others would. In the same way, an article about someone roughing it in the Cairngorns, well, it doesn’t do a lot for me.
I won't bother cut n paste reversing the two examples in the text above, but basically this. We all have slightly ( very?) different MTB interests and its physically impossible for a finite set of writers to appeal to all of them all of the time. Loads of the STW articles are good, but the reality is that they're only of interest to a subset of the pop.
Hannah ( or someone) keeps asking what we DO want to hear about. This is a commendable approach but unfortunately doomed to failure because there is no " collective we" when it comes to the STW readership.
Some people, quite rightly, want to read about amazing adventures in the Cairngorms.
Some people, again quite rightly, want to read about amazing techie gnarr in the lake district*
Some people, believe it or not, want to read about which riders are riding for which teams and who is winning what races. **
Some people apparently want to read about ebikes costing over a month's salary.
Some complete weirdos even want to read general articles about bike maintenance which isn't directly related to the exact job they're doing at that point in time ( no I don't believe it either 🙂 )
Some people even want to hear about gravel routes in the south of England ( shudders)
The point is that STW can no more fill the magazine with what interests everyone than they could roll a pair of dice and get a double six and a double five and a double.... every single throw.
But the forum contains all that info, and with the power of Google we can find the bit we're interested in.
* and of course the other issue is that you're not allowed to write articles about FBWs 😉
** W08 excepted of course. Even I want to hear those results.
Thinking a bit further, IF the magazine had an amazing search facility, where I could find the article in issues 35 about slogging around Glen Tilt in a blizzard, and Weeksy could find the review in issue78 of the ginormous Park Tools tool chest, THAT would be something. There must be shitloads of stuff in the back catalog that would interest people if they can find it.
Print on general is dying off but there is still a market for the high quality specialist stuff that doesn't go down the route of reviews, race results etc. Basically if what you print goes out of date quickly then you're unlikely to win against online. The obvious comparison for here is Cranked, lovely mag with no online stuff at all and is doing well. Doubt there's room for two mags like that though but it may be something to look in to.
Although Mark doesn’t describe it as such, but I pay £0 for a paper magazine and £40 a year for the forum.
Sums up why I pay too, just the digital version though as I don't want to have them print a mag that's just going to be left on a shelf or binned. Just from recommendations on stuff by other members I have saved the cost of membership every year, especially when it's put me off buying something that isn't up to the job. Although the Tamiya thread has cost me well over £1k over the last year or so, plus the Lego one.
Some YouTube info for you.
This
1.2 million views. Listed on IMDB and gets a massive review score. It's taken a few years to get to that number of course. But total earned revenue from Youtube = £3585.25
So about the equivalent of 100 full members over the same time period. So considering that documentary was made in 2016 a rate of 16 new members a year. That doc had a budget of £30k IIRC which we covered via sponsors. That revenue above is our profit.
For the record the calculated CPM rate of £2.92 (1000 viewers = £2.92 in revenue) is pretty typical for a sports niche. The highest paying niche on YT is finance with a typical CPM in excess of £25.
The obvious comparison for here is Cranked, lovely mag with no online stuff at all and is doing well.
Is it? Bet they are struggling too.
do a Happy Valley Special! Get Sarah Lancashire owt in them there hills and spam social media with it! Do a cycle route of popular murder spots. Boom – millions of hits! They’ve probably even filmed in Tod!
Haha, you sir have the instinct of a journalist. Bet you could sell a feature on that to the Guardian or similar. If they've not done it already.
Of course, the problem then is what do you do the next month?
1.2m views is a tiny number. For comparison BCPOV which I see mentioned here as one people enjoy had 835,000 in the last 30 days. https://socialblade.com/youtube/c/bcpov
Compared to 30,000 for this mag’s channel https://socialblade.com/youtube/c/singletrack
YouTube is all about frequency and building a subscriber base rather than 1 off films
Exactly right.
I posted that to offer up an example of the scale required to earn money on the biggest video platform on the planet.
YouTube may have potential but have a listen to the latest Pinkbike podcast for an insight into how tricky it is. They are talking to Paul the Punter who built up a pretty good channel then jacked it in to play golf!
Cranked has 1 employee
and he does a damn good job. But you don’t just produce a paper mag, you have much more than that
Cranked is indeed excellent
Me (back from the dead)!
Mark - I really think you are missing the point, and if I might be so bold you are over estimating the quality and appeal of your content. As a bike geek, I loved this film (but only once - it's not on my repeat play list). Long, high production value (and expensive) pieces like this one which are published rarely and only really marketed to the STW loyalists (there's a preaching to the converted theme here!) are very different to the short, topical, bite-sized YT articles published on a daily basis that drive traffic, interest and just the sense of community that you are trying to nurture. Just look at the average viewer numbers for the 10 minute max popcorn content from other YT producers. Far higher than your masterpiece.
So you published a film lasting almost 70 minutes (which in modern terms is a fair commitment of time given that Tik Tok have established that the average millennial's attention span is 3.8 seconds) 7 years ago and on that basis you have ruled out YT (a channel which your competitors use on a daily basis to drive content, traffic and revenue)? That's like saying I tried piano once and I couldn't play Mozart's piano concerto within the hour so clearly piano is a rubbish instrument.
At the risk of looking like I have swallowed a management consultancy thesaurus, you need to build a multi-channel ecosystem. Not purely for the revenue (something I thought you were trying to free yourself from anyway), but because you need more people to be interested in what you do. You need to create a virtuous circle of multi-channel content where you maximise your audience reach. Daily, short burst relevant content mixed with longer editorial style published across VOD, print, social and web. YT might not be a revenue generator, but it's a great platform to get the message out there as a means of driving awareness and traffic to STW. You are honestly deluded if you think it will drive more magazine subscriptions though. How many people need to tell you the same thing?!
I fear that there is a consensus of feedback from just the people that you are trying to target and a consensus of defensiveness from your team. If your model is working so well, why have you extended the begging bowl for the second time?
Keep doing the same thing in the same way and see how that works for you. Me personally, I would chose to take onboard the feedback, evolve and thrive. Whether you have the team, the content or the attitude to do that is the big question.
There has been quite a bit of chat about whether your content is broad enough to reach anything more than 6k people, many of which it appears only subscribe out of kindness to pay for the forum and wouldn't really miss the mag if it wasn't here tomorrow.
I appreciate a lot of this thread has burst your bubble with regards to what you think your baby is all about, but burst it you must. Listen to what people are taking the time to tell you about their usage and needs and get yourself off the 20th century coolaid. You can argue all day that they are all wrong, but your competitors clearly don't think so, and the readers that you are trying to attract don't either based on this thread.
Being analogue in a digital world hasn't worked for too many of your peer group, but maybe you know something that nobody else does.......the general consensus of posts in this thread tell me you might be a little out of touch with your audience.
I'm keeping away generally from this thread but obviously keeping a bit of an eye on it. But I think it's worth a little clarification that the existence of Singletrack is not under threat. Singletrack will certainly be here in 12 months and beyond. That's pretty much a given. I have a view on where it will be and what it will look like a year from now and the direction of travel. But we aren't going bust. I guess the 'struggle' right now is to evolve and sustain or retreat and run a much smaller operation. Either way, Singletrack has a future.
Solarider isn't in any danger of being banned. We don't censor our critics (rules abided, of course). His views certainly look well considered and I have no doubts whatsoever that they are. Clearly they come from a genuine place of concern and a desire to help. My view from here is unfortunately a lot clearer on the realities of day to day operations and what works, what can work and what is realistic with the resources we have. Unfortunately as much as I can nod in agreement with the desires and aspirations that many have for Singletrack the actual reality of what can be done is often very different. That said, we have a plan which we hope will work - it requires your help - which is why we asked.
p.s the old classifieds is never coming back. The new one is busier than the old and generates actual revenue (Not a lot, yet) but several orders of magnitude more than the old. I get that you miss the old one, but it didn't work for Singletrack and had to change. What you have now is not the best, but then that's in the plan too. Unfortunately with such limited resources we can't make the instant fixes that you all clearly wish we could - and many of you wonder why the F... we don't. It takes time and money to run Singletrack and well, we'll either succeed or we'll run out of one, the other or both.
I guess I should also clarify that magazine no longer equals paper. A magazine is the entire content output of the editorial and marketing team. Some of it is published on paper, which still appears to be quite popular. But if we decided to stop printing on dead trees there would still be a magazine. It's a case of definitions I guess. Singletrack magazine has a solid looking future whether or not we publish any of it on paper.
[ classifieds, forum]...
What you have now is not the best, but then that’s in the plan too. Unfortunately with such limited resources we can’t make the instant fixes that you all clearly wish we could – and many of you wonder why the F… we don’t. It takes time and money to run
I think this is the point that I'm trying to make, and I think one or two others as well.
Stop wasting the money I give you for the forum on writing articles that I have no interest in. Spend it on fixing the forum.
the existence of Singletrack is not under threat
So stop giving that impression! It might not be your intent, but it sure is the end result. Give the impression that what you are doing is working, life is good and this is a great place to be (because it is, and thanks for not banning me!!!!)
the general consensus of posts in this thread tell me you might be a little out of touch with your audience.
My inbox says otherwise I'm afraid. There is certainly strong feeling here and yours is one of the strongest. But I still do not agree with your view. I realise i'm in a privileged position of being able to see the full picture and I have a lot of empathy for your opinions - but it's not the reality of the modern publishing sphere. I'm not a dinosaur hanging on to the past by any stretch of the imagination - I'd never generally put this here as it makes me sound completely lost up my own arse but I am booked to speak at 2 national publishing conferences on a number of the topics mentioned in this thread. I've spoken at quite a few others in the past too. I have form in this field and 22 years of experience (Nope, that does make me sound like a stuck up arse). In that time many of our competitors have fallen away, but we remain and as I just said above, Singletrack has a pretty safe future. The question is what shape that will take - My one singular goal is that future contains all the staff we currently have - that's it!
Maybe you and others are right. Maybe I should just downsize and make some staff cuts (I'm buggered as to where I'd make those cuts mind without making things a lot worse) - but well. I'm just not going to do that. That could bring things crashing down. That's a risk. But I'm taking that risk. I'm happy with the risk I'm taking and yes, it's a hill I'm prepared to die on.
You may well get a lot of what you have said we should do in the future - like I said a lot of what you have said appears on the surface to be obvious and easily done. I know what is actually easy to do and is possible. I know what is a sound revenue stream to expend the limited resources we have on chasing. I guess we are going to have to see what happens over the coming months and years. I'm pretty sure if I screw this plan up there will be plenty of people lining up to tell me I was wrong and they were right all along. If we are still here in a year and the changes we want to happen happen, I don't suppose we'll hear much though.
Stop wasting the money I give you for the forum on writing articles that I have no interest in. Spend it on fixing the forum.
That's really not how it works. It really isn't. I could give you all the toys you want and make the forum run like a buttery smooth butter knife covered in butter. But that is not the best use of the resources we have and won't get is the return we need in the time we need it. You personally want a forum only membership - if we did that we'd actually lose money.
Well, I for one hope we are all here to see you proven right.
Looking forward to the journey Mark. As an (over) enthusiastic armchair observer, I guess I just want to see STW thrive, and listening to your customers (the ones you want to attract as well as the loyalists filling your inbox) is a pretty good business model.
But back to the original point, I would heartily advise you to put the begging bowl away and do what you need to do to build confidence and loyalty amongst just the people that you want to convert to fee paying loyalists.
So stop giving that impression! It might not be your intent, but it sure is the end result. Give the impression that what you are doing is working, life is good and this is a great place to be (because it is, and thanks for not banning me!!!!)
No. That would be a lie and I'm not going to lie to you. Things are not great. The staffing levels here are under threat. That threat manifest itself as job losses. That's not Singletrack under threat - that's jobs. The way for me to protect those jobs is through appealing to you and being honest about that situation. If I said nothing, failed to turn it around and lost staff and then had a bunch of people say, 'But why didn't you say something?" then I'd probably have a really tough time sleeping. So.. here we are. We need more members in order to have the resources we need to make the changes that you want. Unfortunately, without the sudden appearance of a shed load of cash, that's the only viable order of things.
We need more members in order to have the resources we need to make the changes that you want.
You need to do things differently to get more members, not ask your existing members for more. You need to understand why 130k people don't subscribe, not why 6k do (and bear in mind some of the 6k have already told you they only subscribe to maintain the forum, despite your belief that the definition of 'the mag' includes the other online content that they have told you they don't read). If there is a summary of 4 days and 203 posts, surely that is it......
I just looked up 'Catch 22' in the dictionary and this thread came up in the definition list. I really feel for you and genuinely (with absolutely no hint of sarcasm at all, please believe that) wish you the very best of luck with the future direction.
@Mark Any thoughts on encouraging members (and non-members if it comes to that) to use Brave browser to access the site given the collapse in ad revenue?
Like I said earlier, I see that STW is a Verified Creator on the Brave browser so I guess you are at least aware of it?
@solarider I agree with your points an views whole heartedly along with your sentiment and best wishes to Mark and the team. But as Einstein said repeating the same thing and expecting a different outcome is the path to insanity
You need to do things differently to get more members, not ask your existing members for more.
Do you really think that the only thing the Singletrack staff are doing is posting a thread on the forum and sitting back and waiting for the answer? Posters/readers of the forum are an important part of Singletrack. As are subscribers/readers of the magazine. Mark & Co won't only be relying solely on either as they plan for the future. And planning for the future and adapting to it is something they have a proven record of doing well, when others have failed.
Do you really think that the only thing the Singletrack staff are doing is posting a thread on the forum and sitting back and waiting for the answer?
I was referring to the financial ask. Mark never asked for a business review, but I guess that's what he inadvertently got. I appreciate that the whole of this thread has been an unsolicited response to a request for cash which has been met with a load of well intentioned but totally unsolicited arm chair business advice.
It has been largely respectful and given and received in good humour and spirits, which is nice.
something they have a proven record of doing well, when others have failed.
Don't be so sure that because it has worked in the past however, that it is still going to work going forward. Which leads nicely to.....
But as Einstein said repeating the same thing and expecting a different outcome is the path to insanity
Ha. Do you mean me or Mark? Either way, fair comment. I am at risk of repeating myself even more. I am leaving my thoughts here (no, really this time!).
You need to understand why 130k people don’t subscribe, not why 6k do. If there is a summary of 4 days and 203 posts, surely that is it……
With the add on question of.... "why do only 130k out of 20,000,000" come here... ?
If not worldwide... why is the site very very UK biased... not in terms of content, but in terms of membership. You can see it by 4am posts... this place is dead... whereas MTBR.com is in it's peak at 4am Uk.... Obviously full of American time people.. So why doesn't STW get more 'foreign' members... And how can it attract them.
Could it be in terms of 'payment options' that the non-UK residents simply don't have the ability to pay/create and how do STW Towers resolve that ?
I appreciate that the whole of this thread has been an unsolicited response to a request for cash
You might be forgetting the whole history of Singletrack... many on the forum would see themselves as "supporters" not just "users" of Singletrack. Asking for a bit more support is fine with me. I'd better go and check out what's in the shop now I've said that...
to me he just comes across as someone who wants an argument
I’ve followed the whole thread. You appear to be the one jumping in after six pints with fists flailing. Maybe go back to those argument threads you refer to
My one singular goal is that future contains all the staff we currently have – that’s it!
For which you have to be applauded. I see too many businesses that seem to exist for the sake of the business and the people are just a resource to be consumed or not. Yes you have to be realistic and make cuts at the right time but having the continuation of the staff as part of the goals (or even the one singular goal) rocks. Wish more people did more that just pay lipservice to this
@Mark Any thoughts on encouraging members (and non-members if it comes to that) to use Brave browser to access the site given the collapse in ad revenue?
Brave is good. yeah. We've seen some revenue that way. Not a lot and it still isn't anywhere near as much as we would get from programmatic but I have to be honest and say that if you did decide to block ads that you did it by switching to Brave rather than by installing an ad blocker.
Crikey! I think I just fell foul of the moderators on that one 🙂
Daz. I think that there is more confrontational, argumentative and insulting language in your single post than I have included in all of my contributions to this thread.
Don’t confuse a drunken pub car park argument with an intelligent debate. It’s what separates a civilised society from an uncivilised one.
On one thing we agree - this is a serious matter. I don’t think that I have diminished it’s importance in any way, but whilst I appreciate your passion, your uncivil tone does diminish whatever point lies beneath.
...coffee and a tea towel ordered. Any other shop recommendations? Lots of out of stock items I like the look of but obviously missed when they were fresh.
I’ve followed the whole thread.
Me too, and that was my first post on it. Trouble is when you see people on here (who aren't even a f***** member!) questioning the contribution of people who work here and even calling for their jobs to be cut, then people like me who know those people and know and appreciate what they do are going to respond. 🤷♂️
Don’t confuse a drunken pub car park argument with an intelligent debate.
Repeating the same point again and again, however many words you use, is not intelligent debate. You made your point, Mark responded and yet you're still banging on and on.
I appreciate I may be pissing in the wind with this staff first thing but that's probably down to my socialist upbringing 🙂
There's a thing called social capitalism. Profit is required in order to sustain the business - it's just that I see the staff of a business as something more than a resource - they ARE the business and the the first job of a business should be to provide solid employment. What's left after that can be the spoils. Personally I'm more proud of the fact I've helped create and run something that has employed people. I like employing people. But like I said, I could very well be pissing in the wind as that's not how business usually work 🙂
Crikey! I think I just fell foul of the moderators on that one 🙂
I use Brave anyway (as well as being a member) and I found I can set the rewards to give STW extra each month (otherwise YouTube would end up getting the money and I don't reckon they need any more).
I'd imagine most people aren't aware of it and just use a normal ad-blocker as has been mentioned a few times on this thread but I guess people would rather send something to STW, especially if it was 'money' they were never even aware existed.
But yes, I can see the dilemma given the ban on ad-blockers to then tell users to use an ad-blocking browser 🙂
who aren’t even a f***** member!
Here we go again. Local forums for local people!
I have explained why I am a lapsed member elsewhere in this thread. I have also suggested that STW might explore revenue opportunities from the forum. Until they do, I am positively encouraged to use the forum for free. I have also made it clear that I have not at any point called for jobs to be culled. On the contrary, making STW thrive would safeguard those jobs.
If you want to attract more users to your special club Daz (and make no mistake that is exactly what you need), then perhaps be a little more welcoming and open to a diverse range of opinions. I appreciate that emotions are high, but there are ways of making a point…
Maybe you and others are right. Maybe I should just downsize and make some staff cuts
Has anyone actually said that? There have certainly been questions as to what the staff do to generate the content witnessed (which I could be taken badly) but nobody has actually said anyone should lose their job.
Trouble is when you see people on here (who aren’t even a f***** member!)
This is exactly what's wrong with this place. 6 pages in and a sensible, respectful debate right until you waded in, have a word with yourself.
Any other shop recommendations?
The cherry pom pom hat and the club ride shirts are some of my favourite pieces of clothing, although the brighter colours on the shirts are missing now :(. Unfortunately the customs charges are making it much tougher for me to order that stuff now unless i know I'm going to be back in the UK for a bit
Has anyone actually said that?
I did - 1st comment - straight in with the dagger! 😬🗡
Cheers leffeboy... ride shirts was where I started, they look great, but all out of stock is average man sizes. Also fancy some pedal covers for throwing bikes in the car.
But yes, I can see the dilemma given the ban on ad-blockers to then tell users to use an ad-blocking browser 🙂
It's a pickle 🙂
Ultimate solution is to get to a point where we don't need the ads. Programmatic ones at least. That's doable but (broken record again - sorry) We need your help*... blah blah 🙂
*Not you personally Bruce. You already do 🙂
How does this Brave browser thing work then?
Could we be logged in properly on Chrome for example but do a bit of STW browsing on Brave to generate revenue for them?
I did – 1st comment – straight in with the dagger! 😬🗡
So you did! I think the first and only time then.
Ultimate solution is to get to a point where we don’t need the ads. Programmatic ones at least. That’s doable but (broken record again – sorry) We need your help… blah blah 🙂
Without wanting to spin my own broken record we've offered solutions, I'd pay to remove ads and upload pics. Make it cheap enough and folk will pay. Of course I'm a sample of one but there have already been a few people who have said similar things.
@chakaping RE:Cranked
Is it? Bet they are struggling too.
Seb has had to put prices up a few times, he did canvass subscribers beforehand and most were happy to go ahead. Not sure I'd say he was struggling though.