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If you're in the UK, there's every chance you've never heard of Kitsbow, so why should you care that they're closing? And who even are they? Kitsbow w ...
By stwhannah
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It's sad they couldn't make it work - or more accurately the market wasn't there for them to continue. A symptom of a skewed product economy in general?
I really want to see us all buying less stuff but better quality stuff. oc there is a need for choice in price point, perhaps the discussion is partly about what viable durability and quality is for each of us and how many of us can both afford Kitsbow or local handmade frame level choices as well as need/value the durability and repair-ability they offer (or something in between - made in Asia is fine if the product is durable and relevant over a long period). And then, why we should care about sources and lifespans of products and what needs to happen so more people can make those choices. The balance there has been better in the past.
I'm aware of the hypocrisy of me saying this while working in the imported goods industry with all it's churn. Apart from acknowledging that I won't get into all that here. Some other place for it.
They were charging what they thought product should cost
I think this is as like as not the crux of it. Sustainable, environmentally friendly and fair are sold as a premium option, with a corresponding cost across everything from food to clothing or cars.
There's a very good chance I'm wrong as I've no knowledge of clothing manufacturing but $240 for a shirt sounds like there's a heavy lean into "this is what we want it to cost" vs "this is what it should cost".
If we're ever going to solve the issue of people valuing price over cost we need to get away from a model which days low cost is automatically high price and start to price it at what it needs to sell for rather than what we want it it sell for
That's always going to be higher than mass produced with no environmental or ethical concerns but it doesn't necessarily need to be orders of magnitude more. A big part of that is moving away from the endemic pricing model of +x% at every level and selling an item which cost £5 more to make for £5 more not £20 more.
Easy to be dismissive about a brand trying to be "the Patagonia of...", but...
Actually I'm not sure what my "but" is. Shame when people lose their jobs, obviously. Been there done that.
But as JamesO suggests, I'm perfectly happy with my reasonably priced Asian-produced MTB clobber which all lasts me for years anyway.
I'll be more sustainable/eco-friendly in my decision not to fly, eat little meat and not have a wood burner, cheers.
It’s sad they couldn’t make it work – or more accurately the market wasn’t there for them to continue. A symptom of a skewed product economy in general?
Got to agree with this - just no market for it? There are many examples of ethical companies making it work - Patagonia as a global one, Howies and our own HebTroCo as a local one.
there’s every chance you’ve never heard of Kitsbow
This probably says it all about the reason they failed!
I’m aware of the hypocrisy of me saying this while working in the imported goods industry with all it’s churn.
And such an article on a site that has, as one of it's core functions, the promotion of shiny new stuff to buy.
I've heard of Kitsbow, and even browsed their website. I even have the disposable income to spend on their product. I didn't because they didn't have anything that I wanted to buy that I thought would add anything to the sorts of riding I do. I get their ethical credentials, and it's a shame that they couldn't make it work, but I consider myself to be "an average MTBer" and their products didn't fit into what I do, then I understand why their business failed.
My view ( as a dark green) - its a greenwash company. the answer is consume less . They are that weird thing - "green consumerism" which of course does not work. they are going to miss the real greens as they will not buy unneeded products, they are too expensive for those that want to buy stuff with a green tinge
I bought PHD sleeping bags. Locally made. Paid not much more than kitsbow charge for a shirt though.
Those prices are ****ing rediculous. I've got Carhartt and Vans flannel shirts that are about 15 years old, look pretty much brand new and cost about £50*!
Yeah they might have been made in asia, but christ they'll last another 15 years yet. Thats sustainabilty!
*Appreciate they'd cost a bit more now but not £235....
They needed Brant to help with marketing - seems a similar setup to HebTroCo, which seems to have a loyal UK following.
Although HTC outsource to local manufacturers rather than making it all in house.
Personally, I've never 'got' flannel shirts at all and have no idea why they seem so linked to the outdoors.
And such an article on a site that has, as one of it’s core functions, the promotion of shiny new stuff to buy.
Can you explain? I'm not seeing the hypocrisy argument there since Hannah isn't arguing that you should buy fewer shiny things.
Those prices are **** rediculous
That's what it really costs to make something if you want the people making it to have a similar standard of living to the buyers. We've got used to buying stuff where the people making it die of dysentery / starve to death in old age etc, but don't really care as it's cheap....
$62 for a cup and saucer. Yeah, right.
I've never heard of the brand.
Lots of merino in their range, which I find almost wholly inappropriate for cycling.
Styling aimed at the trendy-adventure end of the market which does seem to attract some big spenders so maybe it was just poor marketing.
There are many examples of ethical companies making it work – Patagonia as a global one, Howies and our own HebTroCo as a local one.
Sure, there's other companies making good stuff that's not in that 'churned out' category and putting the usual cynicism raised against them aside Patagonia are an example for businesses in general.
As far as I'm aware Kitsbow were making it all themselves though rather than sourcing, at least more recently. That seems to be the difficult part in all this - to own your manufacturing as well as be reasonably competitive (domestic-made as well as competitive isn't easy either).
Outsourcing certainly doesn't mean not being in control of QC and ethics/sustainability but I do see outsourcing overseas as part of how 'churn brands' are able to operate, so Kitsbow represented the opposite end of that scale.
That’s what it really costs to make something if you want the people making it to have a similar standard of living to the buyers.
Are you assuming the buyers are all wedged-up IT consultants? If so, you may have a point.
I'm sure there was an element of aspirational pricing in there though.
And such an article on a site that has, as one of it’s core functions, the promotion of shiny new stuff to buy.
First, traffic. Because we're all consumers. Then, the discussions that might change the buying choices of a few.
?
(fwiw I wouldn't be riding an MTB that has served me very well for 11 years now with nothing but new consumables and a dropper added in all that time - and it's as relevant to me now as it was then - if I hadn't seen it reviewed on a bike mag's website)
That’s what it really costs to make something if you want the people making it to have a similar standard of living to the buyers.
I don't believe it does cost that. I think there's a huge amount of 'saw you coming' tax involved.
There's a company near me that makes womens clothing - all hand-made in Alfreton - not cheap stuff, but not expensive either.
The company - if you are after old-lady clothing!... 🙂
https://www.davidnieper.co.uk/environmental-responsibility
And very well regarded in the area - even the local school is now by their trust...
https://davidnieper.academy/
A friend of mine makes bespoke handmade one off clothing in Edinburgh. Highly rate. She could make a shirt for less than that I am sure
There’s a company near me that makes womens clothing – all hand-made in Alfreton – not cheap stuff, but not expensive either.
Where does their cotton come from and what standard of living do those farmers have?
Can you explain? I’m not seeing the hypocrisy argument there since Hannah isn’t arguing that you should buy fewer shiny things.
Sorry, I did dash my comment off rather quickly, and appreciate that a bit more nuance is needed on my part. It wasn't meant to be as negative/critical a comment as it probably came across.
Hannah does talk about 'exploiting the earth and using unsustainable resources' and 'the environmental cost of shipping things across the world'. She's right, these are bad things, and can be very closely linked, I think, to the predominantly Western problem, obsession even, with what might be called The Acquisition of More Stuff. Much of the economy, and certainly much of the 'hobbies' economy, like cycling, is driven by persuading people that the stuff they have already is no longer good enough and that they should buy new stuff.
Magazines/sites like Singletrack are a key part of that process as you obviously depend on the advertising revenue that the promotion of new stuff brings; you're a cog in the marketing machine. So, a significant part of your output is the review and promotion of New Stuff, because that brings in the readers (because we're obsessed with it, and we're all hypocrites), and that brings in the advertising, and that allows you to run your business and pay your staff.
That’s what it really costs to make something if you want the people making it to have a similar standard of living to the buyers.
Or if you want the company owners to earn more than the IT managers buying their over priced kit.
I don’t believe it does cost that. I think there’s a huge amount of ‘saw you coming’ tax involved.
Easy to be cynical as they have to position themselves at the high end to stand the eventual RRP. Any rise in cost to make it will be doubled at RRP due to the margins. And I expect they had 3 or 4x the cost to produce Vs imported outsourced items of similar material spec.
Edit to add, they may have been milking it, I'm just seeing this from the side of experience in imported goods sourcing and manufacturing plus some idea of what similar items made in the UK (or EU/USA) could cost. Plus I can jump from why that is to why people in the UK are reliant on cheap tat and have low wages vs the cost of many things too easily. My cynicism is directed more towards the people who run the big companies who import all the tat and pay staff low wages.
It's a very difficult thing to change I think.
We all need to live and will always tend to gravitate to what costs us less to do that. We all do it, all of us who money matters to of course.
But the value we place on certain things I think has skewed almost everything. Not many people care about where things are made, how they're made and how they get to us, and I don't know how that can change.
I'm a furniture maker in the UK and the reality is that it is incredibly difficult to earn minimum wage, never mind a so called living wage.
Furniture is terribly undervalued by us all and subject to the whims of fashion, and obviously clothing is this turned up to 11!
Shame.
No answers.
Shame.
No answers.
Carbon taxation? then locally produced products attract lower taxation than imported products.
Furniture is terribly undervalued by us all and subject to the whims of fashion,
Which is really daft because good quality, timelessly designed furniture can last longer than almost anything else we buy.
(can you post a link to your site?)
Where does their cotton come from and what standard of living do those farmers have?
Don't know down to that level of detail - there's a fair amount of info on their website - seems they are doing a lot more than most and making all in-house...
https://www.davidnieper.co.uk/environmental-responsibility
I've looked and I can't see on the Kitsbow website where it says where the source their materials from either. There's a lot of waffle and not much detail. And only just over 50% of their stuff made in the USA which seemed to be their selling point.
And doing a bit more digging - even the maker of the wool they use is making wool shirts for over a $100 less...
https://www.pendleton-usa.com/product/mens-plaid-board-shirt/50000.html?dwvar_50000_color=32555&cgid=men#start=2&cgid=men
I just don't see how it costs that much to produce a shirt.
Hello. Sorry a bit late on this one.
We make shirts here (or rather, work with three different factories who make shirts for us).
https://hebtro.co/product-category/shirts/
It's a shame about the Kitsbow thing. Ed's got a "shirt like a Kitsbow" on a list of stuff he wants to make. And I've got a "for under £150" in my head.
Since the start of the winter I've probably cycled in 3 outfits total:
Night rides - gore soft shell jacket, 9 years old. still as good as when it was made
Weekend rides - rab hoodie (non biking version). bought last autumn based on a recomendation from here.
In both cases, one of my collection of merino or similar shirts, which I wear nearly every day; and one of two pairs of endura riding trousers.
3rd outfit - xc race. club top which I've had for years, and dakine shorts that are at least 6 years old.
Some things may be expensive, others cheap. all of them have a decent degree of durability and versatility. I have had some trial and error over the years to arrive at this though.
And I've also got some hebtroco jeans on right now. Probably been worn 5 days a week since I bought them.
Point being, if there was something new and decent, to fit in to this, I might well buy it. might need some convincing on a 250 dollar shirt but that is the basic idea. I'm not going to blindly wave a credit card at every FGF just because its there. but I am interested.
Similarly I'm not about to buy the new AXS drivetrain as I'm only a few months into the gen 1 version. But I'm still interested in reading about it.
The problem isn't so much that people don't want to pay for things, it's that fashion says they should change them too often. Doesn't matter if it's clothes, cars, furniture or househod fixtures and fittings. People don't want to stick with things for too long.
I can understand a tailored garment costing loads more a sits unique and made to measure. But an off the shelf item should be charged at tailored prices. Making 100 shirts is cheaper per item than making 1.
Maybe STW could do an article on sustainability of the usual MTB brands and some smaller ones we might not have heard of. See who's selling decent stuff, at a fair price, and not killing kids while they're at it.
I just don’t see how it costs that much to produce a shirt.
The cost to sell a shirt isn't what it costs to make a shirt. It's what it costs to make the shirt and support the company that's making the shirt.
If that's more than the market will sustain then the business doesn't work.
For instance I would strongly imagine that Prada pays less for this shirt than we do for our shirts.
https://www.prada.com/gb/en/men/ready_to_wear/denim/products.Denim_shirt.GEC067_12K8_F0557_S_212.html
I would also imagine Prada sell a lot more of them!
That’s what it really costs to make something if you want the people making it to have a similar standard of living to the buyers.
@footflaps - genuine question - why do you think someone making a product should have a similar standard of living as the person buying it?
Let's take an extreme example - Rolls Royces/Lamborghinis/Similarly expensive cars. Should the person building them have a similar standard of living as the person buying it? If they did, do you think they would be building cars?
I'm all for a person being rewarded appropriately for their work but there is a certain point where luxury comes in and it becomes unsustainable or even unreasonable to pay any more. I realise that sounds rather hard nosed and isn't my intention, I don't mean that workers should get a bare minimum and no more.
Would it be a net benefit or a net loss if we all stopped buying goods produced in countries with a low standard of living. Would those workers be better or worse off? Is a sweatshop job better than no job?
The problem isn’t so much that people don’t want to pay for things, it’s that fashion says they should change them too often. Doesn’t matter if it’s clothes, cars, furniture or househod fixtures and fittings. People don’t want to stick with things for too long.
For some maybe but for others fashion means F all or is something avoided. You can buy fairly timeless things in any product category, flannel checked shirts for middle age men for ex.
Would it be a net benefit or a net loss if we all stopped buying goods produced in countries with a low standard of living. Would those workers be better or worse off? Is a sweatshop job better than no job?
I’m all for a person being rewarded appropriately for their work but there is a certain point where luxury comes in and it becomes unsustainable or even unreasonable to pay any more. I realise that sounds rather hard nosed and isn’t my intention, I don’t mean that workers should get a bare minimum and no more.
Fast facts about fast fashion workers:
There are roughly 40 million garment workers in the world today
Only 2% of whom are paid a livable wage
They are some of the lowest-paid workers in the world
85% of garment workers are women
Fast fashion workers are generally not allowed to form unions or discuss salary
Would it be a net benefit or a net loss if we all stopped buying goods produced in countries with a low standard of living. Would those workers be better or worse off? Is a sweatshop job better than no job?
Is exploitation a good thing?
Edit - yeah, that link Brant posted. We should be paying more for those items. The companies using those suppliers should pay more and the factories should charge more and pay their staff more so they're not sweatshops. The gap between imported outsourced and domestic-made would narrow.
That’s what it really costs to make something
I don't doubt it TBH, but I doubt that I'm ever going to comfortable spending that much on buying stuff on the web. The hassle of it not fitting and having to return t for a different size (doubling the impact of the transport to get the product to and from me) makes me hesitant to buy. I don't mind paying the price for clothes, but I do need to be sure they'll fit me.
HebtroCo is one for this, I'm a 32" in most high street trousers, I know for a fact that HTC absolutely aren't. Coupled with the high cost makes for a nervous ordering process, and if I'm spending that much, the last thing I want it for it to be nerve-wracking
You can buy fairly timeless things in any product category, flannel checked shirts for middle age men for ex.
Yup, dad style isn't like normal style.
I'll still be wearing a lot of the same civvies in 10 or 15 years' time. Just as I'm still wearing some of the stuff I bought 10 or 15 years ago (e.g. Carharrt hoodie that still looks new, Howies lined jeans with slight wear).
Isn't part of the problem that if you sell well-made, long-lasting clothing, the customer shouldn't need to come back and buy again for years? Which is great, but doesn't necessarily fit the scale of company we're talking about here.
At some point expansion or even sustaining your size is not possible, because the customer base is mostly satisfied and busy wearing out their current clothing.
Doesn't mean that any of these firms are not worthy, we should all be buying stuff that lasts us many years.
Would it be a net benefit or a net loss if we all stopped buying goods produced in countries with a low standard of living. Would those workers be better or worse off? Is a sweatshop job better than no job?
I thought the general idea was to increase the amount of goods made in the UK?
85% of garment workers are women
Fast fashion workers are generally not allowed to form unions or discuss salary
There was a woman on the radio the other day who had worked for a factory from a very early age - she worked a 16 hour day & earned less for a weeks work than anyone here does in an hour.
That's not OK
I'm not sure I'm really needing convinced that fast fashion is bad in every possible way. Sadly though we seem to be at a Vimes Boots junction where those that that can afford can (if they choose to do so) and those that can't just have to get by unless they are fortunate enough to find good stuff second hand.
I think my former point is better expressed this way:
Hebtroco sell shirts at £80 - £110 (not the jacket type ones) Yet Kitsbow were double that. What corners are you cutting to get that low or is it (more likely) a case that Kitsbow were either just taking the piss and appealing to the aspirational Instagram crowd or being wildly unrealistic with their wages?
a case that Kitsbow were either just taking the piss and appealing to the aspirational Instagram crowd or being wildly unrealistic with their wages?
Not to disparage what HTC are doing, but they are two dodgy geezers and a couple of dogs. They are getting factories to make their stuff for them to pattern sizes to keep in stock. Kitsbow is a much larger organisation and all their (high value) production is pretty much custom made from scratch on site by employess of Kitsbow, All of that comes at a price.
Hebtroco sell shirts at £80 – £110 (not the jacket type ones) Yet Kitsbow were double that.
Wool overshirt from Hebtroco is £175, ~$220. Kitsbow merino shirt was $290 on their site, listed down to $230. Yes more expensive but not double, about +30%.
Also, compare the standard of living of the UK and US. They are on average better off then we are in the UK. So that $290 shirt is not as expensive to an average American compared to an average Brit.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-average-salary-uk-vs-us-get-ahead-by-linkedin-news/
I try to buy clothing of quality that will last when ever I can, but with Kitsbow I just didn't see the added value over other (often UK based) quality ethical clothing companies, especially at the costs that they were asking, so I've never invested in their product.
Maybe the market they had has changed and they weren't quick enough to adapt to the fluctuation. One reason the supermarkets are having issues is they are too slow and lumbering to adapt quickly so smaller organisations and shops can take advantage of that. Possibly Kitsbow became to big an outfit and was unsustainable them selves?
Talking about the cost of things here's a couple of examples . Last year when Shimano/ Madison / Freewheel stopped running Pearl Izumi I was able to buy some of their riding trousers ( not pants 🙄) half price at £50 and I'm guessing a profit was still made so how much was made when they were £100 a pop ?
Troy Lee open face helmets being knocked out at £40 down from £100 just when they bring out a new version, again profit still being made I guess?Most kit nowadays comes from China that used to mean cheap not anymore. My mates Rapha MTB jacket in Blue £130 if you want a Black one £300 his verdict? £130 is about the right price no way is it worth £300
Finally on jackets this Bluesign environmentally friendly manufacturing, reading the reviews on Enduras new MT500 opinion is it's not waterproof so a lot of BS going on here .
Don't assume they made a profit after dropping the price. Often stock is sold off at below cost in order to make space for incoming new lines.
Living in the UK, how is it more environmentally friendly for my shirt to be flown in to me from North Carolina, rather than flown in from Portugal?
Living in the UK, how is it more environmentally friendly for my shirt to be flown in to me from North Carolina, rather than flown in from Portugal?
There's a lot of possible reasons here - different transport, single stop routing, and packaging have different impacts so the finished product alone could be more environmentally sound to ship from a more distant sorce than a closer one.
In practice there's a good chance that the only thing that happened in Portugal is the box got changed and a label sewn in (or whatever the bare minimum is such that it counts as a product of Portugal) and that the actual garment is sourced from much further afield somewhere with poor environmental and labour protections so that the cost could much higher than the USA sourced one which was potentially grown, processed, and manufactured there with much lower impact.
Living in the UK, how is it more environmentally friendly for my shirt to be flown in to me from North Carolina, rather than flown in from Portugal?
I'm not sure anyone was arguing that's the case. There's probably a world in which, if you were buying from a Portuguese factory with very unsustainable manufacturing processes using fabrics produced using similarly unsustainable methods, compared to a US factory with impeccably sustainable processes, then it might genuinely be less damaging on paper to buy from the States. But that's not really what this story's about.
@jameso @mark Have you remembered to add sales tax to those prices?
Not to disparage what HTC are doing, but they are two dodgy geezers and a couple of dogs. They are getting factories to make their stuff for them to pattern sizes to keep in stock. Kitsbow is a much larger organisation and all their (high value) production is pretty much custom made from scratch on site by employess of Kitsbow, All of that comes at a price.
@nickc so what you're saying is that, actually, it's really inefficient to try and do everything on site without economies of scale? I only got a 3 for Standard Grade economics and even I find that really obvious.
It's still perfectly possible to do what Kitsbow do without doing everything in house, that's why people vet their supply chains so you get all the advantages of economies of scale with the same outcome. All that boring ISO 200x accreditation actually means something.
probably get some grief for this but I own one, bought last summer after moving to the US for work. I love it, probably not worth the money but a lovely shirt. I probably wear it more often than anything else I own. I wear kit out as I commute every day and ride most weekends. I can give a fair insight into the durability of most brands from Aldi / Lidl specials to Rapha & Assos. I would say the shirt is next level in terms of quality.
@jameso @mark Have you remembered to add sales tax to those prices?
No, they don't show it in the RRP do they. Only adds 5-10% to the US RRP though?
All that boring ISO 200x accreditation actually means something.
Insurance for the brands more than any meaningful worker protection. I've seen how audits can be fudged.
Can I phrase this another way? how many hours of work (ie, work at your current job) do you think is acceptable in exchange for a shirt, or a pair of shoes, or a bike?
Personally, I’ve never ‘got’ flannel shirts at all and have no idea why they seem to linked to the outdoors.
They handle the outdoor stains better, when your BBQ burger tomato sauce/beer ends up down the front of them its not so obvious.
Personally, I’ve never ‘got’ flannel shirts at all and have no idea why they seem to linked to the outdoors.
As someone else has just referenced...
As I understand it the rag trade is for the most part a high volume industry even at the medium to lower end. If you are not shifting massive amounts of stock, it's bloody expensive to get anything made, similar to small batch engineering work.
I watched a thing which followed a prominent female owner of a manufacturing facility and to say she was shrewd was an understatement! If you're a small fish, she/her team wouldn't even entertain your makeshift enquiry. Never mind some influencer/blagger bowling up with some back of a fag packet ideas of building a clothing brand. There are middlemen who deal with these people and trouser a premium for the privilege, with the idiots getting pennies or making a loss. It's that real world again isn't it!
"Premium Product" everyone is selling premium now-a-days, not to mention premium stuff being just the the stuff that hasn't been so cost reduced it's barley fit for purpose and in some cases isn't. LMFAO talk about being nudged, the word premium used and abused to the point of being meaningless!
@nickc so what you’re saying is that, actually, it’s really inefficient to try and do everything on site without economies of scale?
I read the blog of a woman trying to make bike clothing and she essentially said, choose either to go for maximum volume, or stop pretending that it's anything but a hobby and get a proper job, as there's more or less nothing in between.
I guess Kitsbow just proved it, even with the volume they were selling.
I think they made 2 big mistakes. The number of people willing to pay that much for a garment ones rather limited to start with. If they are genuinely interested in sustainability then those products should need replacing less often so you need to find more customers will to pay the high price as the first lot aren’t worn out. So they are making their market smaller and smaller the more the sell.
The alternative if it’s marketing bs and they hope people will buy new ones just as often
This is a great question @ajaydoubleyou
Can I phrase this another way? how many hours of work (ie, work at your current job) do you think is acceptable in exchange for a shirt, or a pair of shoes, or a bike?
I'll open the bidding at an hour for a shirt, two hours for shoes and a week for a bike.
I’m going to take a guess that a factor in this companies demise is Heath Care costs. They will have been paying for the health care costs of it’s employees and that is really expensive
My family history involves the tweed industry. My grandfather and uncle both ran mills. I understand things cost. Happy to support 'local' to a point but when the premium starts to get to 50% greater there's a line to be drawn, particularly when your premium is 50% over Patagonia prices.
It does feel like they were just the wrong combination of size, price and marketing to be long term viable.
Hopefully STW will now be banging the drum for other local brands who have actually made it work. Looking at the Kitsbow bib shorts, the closest comparison I could make is Lusso in very nearby Manchester. Retail price for near identical products was $249 vs £85. And that was being generous to Kitsbow - Lusso have other high quality options for less, most with Italian made pads and European fabrics, plus decades of experience in making stuff that fits and lasts.
Lusso -
Handmade in Manchester
We are proud to offer clothing that is made right here in the UK. You can trust that you are getting products made with care, by highly skilled machinists who are passionate about their work.
Cheers Mick, I didn't know that, I feel I should do. Worth knowing.
Yeah Jameso, imagine if they were just down the road from a bike mag / website who could give them a front page article 🙂.....
They'd already been established 7 years when I got my first MTB and Lusso gear in 1989. They now regularly win tests / beat Castelli etc in the road bike mags.
And sponsor the local mtb series!
I’ll open the bidding at an hour for a shirt, two hours for shoes and a week for a bike.
So, £27.33 for a shirt, £54.66 for shoes and £1048.36 for a bike.
That's before I pay tax on those earnings (£54kpa).
FWIW that's probably about half what I'd say is reasonable value for mass market, go to 2.5 to 3 times that and you're getting into high quality that should last, anything above that is probably high priced tat that's only sold to people who like other people to know how much money they have (see the Prada shirt).
Some exceptions apply, obviously.
Now the problem with that is 2.5h of labour from me (before tax) is probably going to translate to about double that for someone on minimum wage who, by virtue of being subjectively poor can't pay premium prices and so can't pay more for higher quality. And we're back to Vimes' boots.
So we get back to "what is a fair wage"? I'd say a fair wage would allow the worker to buy a quality product at cost or subsidised price for the same labour cost at my wage (ie, 3h labour for a shirt, 5h for a pair of shoes and 2.5 weeks for a bike). Obviously that only works if whoever you work for makes those items but it's a start. I think. I've a feeling I'm going to get corrected on this.
@mickr never heard of Lusso either.
Mick, I'd heard of Lusso but tbh don't really pay much attention to lycra bike clothing brands/kit personally and Lusso sounds a bit Italian which doesn't help. Knowing it's made in the UK does. Wonder if they make kit for other brands.
Just seen they are even offering free repairs on things bought direct!
Hopefully they will expand the cargo and gravel / MTB side of things. We mostly use the shorts under MTB kit - the 3/4 thermal bibs are great for winter slop under waterproof shorts.
Anyway - enough evangelism from me. Just wanted to highlight that it is possible to do low volume / local / handmade / quality / fairly priced.
Fast facts about fast fashion workers:
There are roughly 40 million garment workers in the world today
Only 2% of whom are paid a livable wage
They are some of the lowest-paid workers in the world
85% of garment workers are women
Fast fashion workers are generally not allowed to form unions or discuss salary
That's just social impact, and we rarely focus on the exogenous costs of consumption. The fashion industry is shocking.
From: https://www.genevaenvironmentnetwork.org/resources/updates/sustainable-fashion/
The Environmental Footprint of Fast Fashion
- The equivalent of one garbage truck full of clothes is burned or dumped in a landfill every second (UNEP, 2018)
- Approximately 60% of all materials used by the fashion industry are made from plastic (UNEP, 2019)
- 500,000 tons of microfibers are released into the ocean each year from washing clothes — the equivalent of 50 billion plastic bottles (Ellen MacArthur Foundation, 2017)
- The fashion industry is responsible for 8-10% of humanity’s carbon emissions – more than all international flights and maritime shipping combined (UNEP, 2018). If the fashion sector continues on its current trajectory, that share of the carbon budget could jump to 26% by 2050 (Ellen MacArthur Foundation, 2017)
- Some 93 billion cubic metres of water – enough to meet the needs of five million people – is used by the fashion industry annually, contributing significantly to water scarcity in some regions (UNCTAD, 2020)
- Around 20% of industrial wastewater pollution worldwide originates from the fashion industry (WRI, 2017)
More facts and sources on Business Insider
My wife has been making her own clothes for the past decade. She's found a supplier of leftover fabrics (you can imagine how much of that there is). Not feasible for most people admittedly, and she's only ever made me one item of clothing, but has made sun hats, bags and shorts for the kids. I'm 'planning' on repairing my favourite trousers using her machines at some point.
I have found a pretty good option for my work shirts though. Tailor Store is Swedish, but seem to have good social and environmental credentials. Their Sri Lankan workers get paid a decent wage.
I think I'd like to understand a bit more about what exactly they were trying to do. For example, were they simply attempting to transplant the method of production from Asia to the US (but with a living wage and benefits and their LEAN manufacturing method)?
Were people sewing clothes together by hand, is what I'd like to know.
If that was the case I'm not really surprised they went under.
I think any company that wants to manufacture in the Western world is going to have to accept that automation is going to be a significant element in it's business plan.
The options for automation grown massively in the last ten years or so. The plethora of open source options, both in terms of hardware and software, means that small manufacturers have options that simply did not exist just a few years ago.
Anyway, I'd like to understand a bit more about how Kitsbow worked before drawing any conclusions. It does sound like they were relying on customers being prepared to pay a 'conscious tax' rather than figuring out a profitable way to compete with Asian sweat shops.
There remain a good few manufacturers making it work here and with local repairs and servicing in the UK as a bonus.
Think about the likes of Lomo, Findra, Lusso(mentioned above) and a personal favourite, Keela in Glenrothes.
Everyone imports at one level or another in the supply chain but by buying stuff with some local input, we can help support better paying manufacturing jobs. There are several good reasons why the Keela outdoor kit is popular with the Scottish ski resort managers for their patrol team kit and several MRTs up here; the kit lasts pretty well and can be sent locally for repair. I'm wearing a pair of their Scuffers outdoor trousers that still look fine at about 8 years of hard use as an event medic.
Even Endura still offer a repairs and alterations service at their site in Livingstone, which I've used a couple of times.
Maybe we should have a thread on 'Oldest clothing still in functional condition/regular use'.
My first bid is an Endura Jaffa pertex shell from about 1998. Worn at Tentsmuir for a bimble about on Sunday past. I think hailstones would go straight through it but it keeps the wind off.
imagine if they were just down the road from a bike mag / website who could give them a front page article
They - Lusso, make Roadie clothing, why would Singletrack - A mountain bike magazine, be interested?
If you go to Lusso's website, it's filled with glowing reviews from Roadie mags, It seems like they get pretty good exposure already.
They – Lusso, make Roadie clothing,
but are expanding into gravel clothing, so based on the direction of mag articles and most 'weekend ride photos' threads that should be bang on for Singletrack.
so based on the direction of mag articles and most ‘weekend ride photos’ threads that should be bang on for Singletrack.
I swear I'm getting closer and closer to a rant about gravel biking on a mountain bike website.