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K.I.S. (Keep It Stable) uses springs, ultra-strong polymer fibre bands and a shaped cam inside the frame to centre your bars whilst riding.
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By ben_haworth
Get the full story here:
https://singletrackworld.com/2022/10/canyon-k-i-s-self-centring-steering-doohicky/
So basically a MTB version of a steering damper... wow...
How will this affect my tail whips?
So basically a MTB version of a steering damper… wow…
That was my first thought, but it doesn't seem to be, just for centering the steering rather than preventing tank-slappers . No damper, other than the opposing spring. What a bizarre product.
It turns out Hopey dampers still exist, but this looks like all kinds of dangerous:
I can ride no handed better on my gravel and road bike than on my MTB. I asume this is for people who have the same issue?...
I've never been able to ride no handies, no balance. But to get this tech does it mean you need to buy a whole new frame
Good for Canyon, maybe not for the average riders bank balance.
Gut reaction is that this is a solution to a problem that doesnt exist, but willing to be proven wrong, would like a go on one to see what its like.
why?
Looks like an integrated deflopilator to me!
https://www.leftfieldbikes.com/shop/accessories/yuba-accessories-deflopilator/
Even the brief first try reviews seem to be confused - requires a complete rethink on how you ride your bike etc. No one's really slagging it off, but no high praises either from what I've seen.
Good to see canyon again, aren't scared of trying something 'new' and putting it to the public though, but my guess (internet armchair) is it'll disappear from the range within 2 years.
I would hope that it adds the stability (and confidence) of a slacker head angle without the long wheelbase and wheel flop that come with it conventionally?
Maybe. I don't understand 2 wheeled dynamics enough to be sure, I struggle enough with trail.
Slightly off topic, but does any actually use flip chips? I have one on my Reactor but can't ever imagine a time I'd be bothered to use it.
My son has a Canyon Strive with the shapeshifter, which does seem to work, but I know they've been problematic for lots of people.
I'm not convinced, riding a bike no-handed isn't down to the front wheel staying pointing ahead, it's because when the bike starts to fall over, the steering geometry self corrects. It leans left, the wheel turns left harder, centripetal force pushes the bike back upright and probably over center, and the process repeats to the right.
Real world example most people will have tried at some point, riding on skinny woodwork, it's hard because you can only balance by adjusting your COG manually side to side which is really unnatural.
So this makes sense,
Even the brief first try reviews seem to be confused – requires a complete rethink on how you ride your bike etc.
It's not making you more stable, it's stopping the bars from turning, and it's the bars turning which usually provides stability.
I'm sure I once had a foooked headset that provided the same function.
Ive never ever been on my bike and wished the steering would do anything other than what my weight or hands told it to.
Headset bottom bearing = 3 hour job?
I have a lot of respect for Liteville/Syntace (certainly more than Canyon) so I will be interested to see how this goes.
What happens if I change forks on a bike with integrated deflopilator equipped bike?
Also does anyone actually have an issue with floppy feeling steering?
I love the fact that they called it KIS.
Keep It Simple Stupid - don't add unnecessary complexity to anything! That includes springs that are trying to straighten out your steering.
Has anyone had a go at seeing it would feel like by attaching a bungees to your seatpost and putting one to each side of your handlebars?
A friend had a bolt on steering damper solution on his MTB more than 10 years ago, he seemed to like it.....
Has anyone had a go at seeing it would feel like by attaching a bungees to your seatpost and putting one to each side of your handlebars?
No, but as a kid I had a go at seeing what it would feel like if I swapped my hands over on the handlebars. That ended quickly, and not well...
thisisnotaspoon
Full Member
I’m not convinced, riding a bike no-handed isn’t down to the front wheel staying pointing ahead, it’s because when the bike starts to fall over, the steering geometry self corrects. It leans left, the wheel turns left harder, centripetal force pushes the bike back upright and probably over centre, and the process repeats to the right.
I reckon this device would put an end to no hand riding as the KIS will overpower the self-centring action that trail provides and thus mean you're on the floor before you know it.
I love no handers and For that reason I'm out.
I just want to acknowledge the amazing name Deflopilator! never heard that before and it's a brilliant word!
A solution in need of a problem if there ever was one.
File alongside headset cable routing in the "Thanks but no thanks" folder.
On the plus side, it will be easier to lean your bike against your car without it falling over when you slam the boot closed.
I just want to quote most of the replies so far and write this beneath them.
Have you broken the April 1st press embargo on this story?
Ive never ever been on my bike and wished the steering would do anything other than what my weight or hands told it to.
I was going to type this. No idea what the thing is actually for.
Feels a lot like this is a solution looking for a problem to solve.
I'm not an especially skilled rider, and I don't have an especially slack bike, but where I lack skills I still cannot see how a spring loaded steerer would improve my riding. Or indeed my chances of remaining on the bike when my aspirations exceed my ability.
A mate had a Hopey steering damper BITD.
It was very difficult to ride no handed with it.
The only possible benefit I can think of is to damp the natural tendency of the wheel to flick left and right when climbing very feebly on steep stuff and take you off your desired line. Can't say that's a massive selling point for me, the zig-zagging gives me a rest.
I've had a few hours to think about this... I imagine that in terms of ride it will feel at most times like a bike with more trail, that is a bike with a shorter offset fork, but without the wheel flop issues.
This will not be true when riding not hands.
Odd that there's no damper, agreed.
There's a few few e-scooters using steering dampers now. I tried one and thought it was very effective. But there imho it's a bandage on a fundamentally flawed steering geometry dictated by packaging and small wheels. A good bandage though since the packaging isn't easy to resolve differently.
The classic touring or cargo bike spring as an antidote to wheel flop always interested me. It could allow you to remove all of the positive feedback the geometry/flop has in the steering feel (I think we need some of that positive feedback and it's part of why I dislike low trail geometries that aim to remove all flop) or it could help neutralise excessive flop, whatever you think excessive is. It'd need to be tuneable to suit preferences.
I’m not convinced, riding a bike no-handed isn’t down to the front wheel staying pointing ahead, it’s because when the bike starts to fall over, the steering geometry self corrects. It leans left, the wheel turns left harder, centripetal force pushes the bike back upright and probably over center, and the process repeats to the right.
Try relying on that riding no hands, you'll crash : ) Bikes don't really self-correct, they just self-'reduce the error to a point'. But then they fall over.
Riding a bike no-handed is about moving your weight from one side to the other to turn the f wheel and stay in balance, just like riding with hands. You just steer from the hips and shift your weight via the saddle to initiate the turn rather than actually moving the bars yourself. Much harder to correct on a floppy / long-trail bike than a short trail bike.
What happens if I change forks on a bike with integrated deflopilator equipped bike?
I'm guessing it's built into a headset component somehow, like a steerer spacer that extends through the bearing? So dropping the forks out would be relatively simple?
A mate had a Hopey steering damper BITD.
It was very difficult to ride no handed with it.
I still think it's not a damper. but the problem trying to ride no handed would be the same.
A damper holds the wheel straight when you get pinged by a rock at speed which might be enough to knacker your wrist in a 4x4. Or to dampen oscillations on motorbike, all bikes oscillate, it's mostly how they stay upright, but a 200kg motorbike is harder to control them than a 10kg MTB if they build up rather than dampen down.
I imagine that in terms of ride it will feel at most times like a bike with more trail, that is a bike with a shorter offset fork, but without the wheel flop issues.
That's what I was thinking. In my mind it's not a problem that needs solving, but it could be the innovation that allows something else (either zero offset forks, or massive offset I couldn't quite decide). This + more inherent 'flop' probably allows some other part of the geometry to be changed for the better which would be the real reason to do it.
Odyssey made a steering damper back in the Eighties which I am fairly sure was in the Freewheel catalogue and brought in by Madison. As I recall, it never found a market. I’d be happy to test one just to see whether it delivers on its claims but I am suspicious that is solving a problem that doesn’t really exist.
Cheers
Sanny
I’m guessing it’s built into a headset component somehow, like a steerer spacer that extends through the bearing?
Clamp-on section on the steerer, under the upper bearing?
Deflopilators (great name) and the like usually are just a spring that connects a bolt in the fork crown where a guard bracket would go, and an anchor point under the down tube. If you have a bike with a crudcatchcher boss on the DT and a trad type of fork crown you could fit one, or make something similar.
This one has a band-on fitting
My son has a Canyon Strive with the shapeshifter, which does seem to work, but I know they’ve been problematic for lots of people.
Not a problem just drop into your local Canyon dealer .... oh.
It’s not making you more stable, it’s stopping the bars from turning, and it’s the bars turning which usually provides stability.
Exactly this...
No riding impressions from the mag seems to indicate STW were not invited out to the press launch? Weird? Or maybe they are still writing up an article...
Anyway, a fairly decent write up on NSMB.com (invited out from BC to France for the press launch!) but they are reporting this as a €400 option. Ouch!
I'm not in the market for a new bike currently but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be splurging €400 extra on any bike just for this (and certainly not without a proper back-to-back test ride).
Canyon/Liteville have a one year exclusivity deal but it can be licensed by other manufacturers after that deal expires, so expect more bikes to have in future (unless it flops*, of course)
*Boom boom
unless it flops
If it does, I reckon it'll spring right back.
Ba dum tiss!
Bikes don’t really self-correct, they just self-‘reduce the error to a point’. But then they fall over.
https://www.pinkbike.com/v/embed/4263/
So what I take away from this is its a security upgrade, essentially making it less desirable as its more difficult to ride no handed whilst swigging monster bull and smoking 20 silk cut?
Beyond that it's unlikely to serve a purpose?
Beyond that it’s unlikely to serve a purpose?
It'll sell a few bikes to the gullible, so actually some purpose. 😁
It’ll sell a few bikes to the gullible
They know their market well. 😉