Zwift Team Time Trial, Thursday

a few years ago when struggling with boredom who would have thought riding a turbo would have moved on to this!

a few years ago when struggling with boredom who would have thought riding a turbo would have moved on to this!

Here is the updated MoreSTW pull list. @mbs is on the MoreSTW team. I have reordered it so it is 1 min pulls then 30 second pull. I will have a copy of the list and so will w00dster. w00dster will do the calls on the ground.

Looking forward to it.

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Taking into account nixie's point. On the climbs we climb at halorics pace. karnali in front of him keeping the gap down to 1m and w00dster at the back to monitor the whole group.

Teams are all sorted, nothing has changed for most of you. It looks like tags are all set.

STW - 12 minute start delay
@phil56
@paino
@nixie
@yanboss
@munkeymadness
@trolo1234
@scaredypants
@rj2dj

MoreSTW - 5 minute start delay & check you've seen tactical plans upthread
@w00dster
@karnali
@slowpuncheur
@mbs
@robbo1234biking
@zilog6128
@drew
@haloric

Have a good ride. See if you can all get to the finish line (unlike me!).

I have just something small to add to the MoreSTW brainstorm (@w00dster @karnali @slowpuncheur @mbs @robbo1234biking @zilog6128 @drew @haloric)

It's a proof of concept this week, which isn't supposed to be perfect or optimal. If your allocated responsibility is too much, of course you should say so live this evening. It's OK to miss pulls and sit in. Every time someone ends up behind you in that case you are still doing a job for the team for example. So the floor is movable! But the ceiling is deliberately, for some of you, not supposed to be pushed higher tonight. A good outcome this evening would be that some of you feel like you could have pushed harder, or longer, or whatever. If that is the case, stick to the plan this evening, hold back for the team, get to the end in formation, and report back later so it can be adjusted next week.

what happened to your ride Adam ? dropout ?

No, much simpler than that. I got dropped (2nd time up the KOM).

Jesus, that must be some powerful team you ride with !

No, much simpler than that. I got dropped

Serves you right for winning on Tuesday! (bloody good effort on that by the way)

I found the link posted on the previous page giving some guidance on how to do them (and specifically things to look out for in Zwift) really interesting. Hopefully get to put some of it into practice tonight!

I guess I should be aiming for 30-45 second pulls @ 110% of FTP and see how I go?

Thanks @savoyad that's good advice. My thoughts are how do we know if the 'concept' works? As far as I can see, we don't have a benchmark to work from. How do we know if this is quicker for us than the normal blob with the stronger riders taking a bit more wind than the less strong? Do you see rival teams who tend to make similar times or would we need to set a benchmark time in a meetup maybe? I'm probably overthinking things now...

rj2dj - you're in STW, right ?
Not sure that "we're" doing the same process. In my experience there's a big spread of power in STW and I just do what I can on the front without battering myself to failure* (and also trying to save a bit for the hills). Not much chance of me meaningfully leading a team with some of those guys riding. They say that even just staying with a bunch helps it a little bit, so I'm sticking with that

*Course, your watts may be more plentiful than mine

Honestly in my view @rj2dj you really don't need to aim for anything other than familiarisation with the whole process tonight. Focus on starting successfully with the team (!) then riding with them, then getting deep into the race etc. Maybe close any gaps that open if you are well placed for that.
STW won't (as far as I know!) ride with the structure MoreSTW are planning. @phil56 will be on the discord voice channel and will look after you etc.
EDIT - @scaredypants beat me to it, basically.

It’s a good point and I think there is an element of trust in people like nixie who ride on fast teams as well as info available on the internet through Zwift insider etc.

We don’t have a benchmark to compare to so would have to go on how it feels tonight. Another aspect is whether being more tactical adds enjoyment to the experience and ensuring that everyone feels their construction has made a difference.

I would be happy to do a meet-up to do some testing (we have a Tuesday evening comping up in 12 days that is free?!) to try some different stuff.

@haloric
what s realistic w/kg for you up the hills, so I know what i'm aiming at to ride just infront.

@w00dster
@robbo1234biking
Just shout at me on discord if I need to go harder or easier on the hills, i'll do a check that I can hear in the pen but i struggle to talk much and ride at same time, I'll do my best, but assume i'm ok on checks etc. I'll make it known if i'm not!
Looking forward to it be fun to see how it pans out, just hope i move out of the start without a delay like last week.

@rj2dj for a first time out the most important thing is not to jump start. That means 30s before the event starts you need to be putting out 0W (there is a safety margin put in there). There are two ways to do that 1. Don't pedal :D. 2. sit in the pairing screen. With the 12 minute delay you will probably want to keep the legs warm while we wait. This only safe way to do that is sitting in the pairing screen. Then when we get close to launch stop pedaling, wait for the turbo to stop, then exiting the pairing screen ready to go.

If you do manage to jump start (it happens even to regulars) don't panic. Stop pedalling and get into the pairing screen to kill your power. Then wait for our proper start.

Serves you right for winning on Tuesday!

Thanks Brian. The two are probably not unconnected. I usually ride (at least one) short crit crushers race Weds breakfast time after a Tues eve race, which sounds a bit mad but I don't ride for placings, it's a totally different kind of effort, spins the legs out nicely etc. There was absolutely no chance of that yesterday morning, I couldn't get out of bed let alone on a bike. I felt much better later on but no doubt this morning was an extension of that.

whats realistic w/kg for you up the hills, so I know what i’m aiming at to ride just infront.

Thats a good question but I don't really know - it depends on the hill - I don't think there is much drafting on these hills, so if you are anywhere near, in front or alongside is fine - I'll be putting in what I can bearing in mind when I last did a turn on the front. My FTP is 268 @ 92kg, so close to 3w/kg

My biggest problem on these TTT is getting dropped near the brow of the hill, and not being able to get back on - the rest is gravy.

I'm gonna drop my trainer sensitivity, as I normally have it 60%+ but end up winding through the gears, and I'll change to 3sec power.

@haloric the trick we (BRT) have used at the top is for the rider(s) in your position to put a big spurt in over the top (I realise that can be a big ask). The speed boost and virtual gravity keep you in the mix as it goes down.

bollocks - computer crapped out. I'm screwed, sorry

Same here scaredy, wouldn’t let me leave the pairing screen. Was trying from 30 seconds to go. Everyone left then it took me to Richmond.
Absolutely gutted. Think I need to ask the forum techies what I need to improve my wireless in the garage.

Thanks guys, that was really good. Great work as DS Phil. There is a recording here if your interested;

Thanks guys, sorry couldn't make the last 5k - seemed like I was in the red for a long time for at least the first half of the race, never really got any rythmn or rest somehow - seemed to be over 300w a lot of the time when not on. the front, will have to consult the stats to see if thats true or I'm just under par.

re not leaving the pairing screen - I doubt that is a wifi issue, exactly the same happened to Jack on the last ttt he did, more likely a coding error, dealing with some network event. Similar issues happen with leaving the garage, particularly on large rides.

Well that was a voyage of discovery. Thanks to all in TeamSTW for bearing with me. I could in fact hear you all the way round, and see you most of the way round (but never on the back straight after we went through the mountain and past the waterfall - so I just had to guess how much power to put out at that point. So that, coupled with my phone decided to go into a boot loop for 2 our of 3 laps and not being able to reach the laptop keyboard to type, meant I just had to get on with it!

Have never used Discord before, I think I need to have it in my ears, but then I would need a push to talk function or I would drive you all crazy with my heavy breathing! What is everyone else using?

The actual bike riding seemed like a sideshow compared to solving all the various technical issues I had!

Does that stream have Phil’s audio when he realised he was still on the mtb 😁😁
@rj2dj I use discord on my phone (attached to bars) and use the push to talk setting. That way I don’t need to mute myself. Cheap Bluetooth speaker headphones with a mic seem to do the trick.
Great effort guys, carried decent speed up those climbs.

i got stuck in the garage at 7.30 and had to re load was just grateful it had made the changes back to a road bike from a mtb! I use in ear headphones and push to talk for discord as my turbo and music make so much noise.

thanks @robbo1234biking enjoyed that, i think it would be easier to work on on a flatter course, slight rises and falls make a big difference to power output for me. Bit there were times I thought that looked promising and it was much less blobby for large parts of the ride, thanks for all your workings out. I too had family taking the mick about spreadsheets and power targets!!

@haloric you did a good job pacing the first two hills. Thanks.

What did people think? Didn’t quite go to plan with w00dster’s technical issues but I was surprised to see the results were quite encouraging.

I did that ttt course back in September with Phil. My 3 laps and average watts were:

14:20 279w
14:32 272w
14:28 269w

Tonight:

14:25 271w
14:40 250w
14:29 250W

So very similar pace but about 10-15% less power. Through the esses and flat section we went well. We stayed together on the climb well. We could prob have pushed a bit harder on the plateau on the first two climbs but overall it went well.

What did others think?

I think that worked great! (MoreSTW). Looking at my numbers (avg watts & HR), very similar to usual, maybe slightly lower avg HR, but it felt easier (albeit was definitely working hard to hang on for the last lap!!) and managed a strong sprint finish whereas normally I have little/nothing left at the end! (No idea how we fared as a group though vs. How we normally do?)

Definitely a bit scrappy - there were times I was doing 300W in the back trying to stay on when it wasn’t even my turn at the front 😂 and quite often found myself having to do 400W to move up to take my turn! Few times we let too big a gap form at the front I think which made it hard for the next man to take his turn. But overall - really good! Stayed together really well even on the climbs.

Hope you all got a good ride in - sorry again

Mine wasn't (entirely) zwift's fault - shambles on my part

I assume I've drowned my keyboard in sweat, so initially couldnt log in to windows but because the password was blanked I couldn't see that I was typing gobbledegook (more than normal!)

Swapped to a new keyboard and got logged in but I think windows must've been cross with me for trying so many times and had to re-restart. Then logged on to zwift with plenty of time and started discord.
That made my pc shut down again so restarted with very little time left. started discord again and my password wasn't working so tried it on my phone to scan the screen but that also wouldn't log in

Looked up at the screen with about 3 min to go and I was pedalling round somewhere that wasn't watopia (maybe Ricmond, like woodster). ended ride & back in again but didn't make it in time (or at least didn't get the "join" button).

Maybe it's just all the wet weather buggering up the pc, although the keyboard was doing odd things initially; hoping just that

Ah well, did a workout and got to eat dinner with MrsP (fair enough, it is our anniversary ! 🤣 )

(Oh, and I was still on the MTB too !)

@rj2dj you did really well to keep with us with all the issues.

For discord I gave up on using my phone as it used to cause the companion app to die. That was on an older phone though. Now I use a set of tredz titanium headphones for listening and an old web cam on the TV for the microphone. Both connected to discord on the PC running zwift. I have voice activation turned on as well as noise cancelling.

@paino sadly no sound on the video. The headset was interfering with the streaming softwares sound and I couldn't work out why before the start.

I assume I’ve drowned my keyboard in sweat, so initially couldnt log in to windows but because the password was blanked I couldn’t see that I was typing gobbledegook (more than normal!)

Swapped to a new keyboard and got logged in but I think windows must’ve been cross with me for trying so many times and had to re-restart. Then logged on to zwift with plenty of time and started discord.
That made my pc shut down again so restarted with very little time left. started discord again and my password wasn’t working so tried it on my phone to scan the screen but that also wouldn’t log in

Thank you, you’ve just helped me decide to stick with my iPad and not get a laptop for Zwift 😉

I'm on a big old telly in the garage and I've one of those "meeting" webcams on top of the screen and I've bodged a fairing out of a squash bottle the keep the wind off the mic

Works well as far as I know - people tend to say they can hear me OK

Weird - just looked at the results and I'm partially recorded on team STW while woodster isn't, plus phil doesn't show at all either 🤷‍♂️

Thank you, you’ve just helped me decide to stick with my iPad and not get a laptop for Zwift 😉

(replacement is going in a plastic bag 😎 )

Much more satisfied with my performance this week. Took quite a lot of focus through the undulating sections. Being at the heavier end I can happily draught at the back at 3 W/kg whilst everyone else is doing 4. A moments hesitation as the gradient goes up though and the gap starts growing quickly!

Not sure if the hills were just smaller and less steep than last week or I managed to avoid overdoing and blowing up this time but nice to get to the finish all together.

Thanks all

It took me a while to dial in the right power for pulls. The squad I have been in 5-6wpkg is the usual pull (400-420ish W for 30-60s). I kept defaulting to that instead of less for longer.

I think that was good and definitely something to build on. We communicated well (thanks @Robbo1234biking for calling it). My weighted power average was comparable to previous weeks but average power slightly less than last week so I reckon that means there was more resting in the line. I certainly felt I had a bit more left in the tank at the end- to the extent that I took off for the line far too early. Still that daft effort gave me PBs for 1 min and 2 min power. It'll be interesting to see where we faired in the rankings.

I also enjoyed the longer recovery times and felt stronger at the finish than usual. I think we did pretty well all things considered. I don’t think that’s an easy route as it’s very rarely flat. I find it quite hard to keep to a steady power output when on the front so hope it wasn’t too up and down.

I find it quite hard to keep to a steady power output when on the front

Thanks for posting the video @Nixie

I was with you the whole way round, but only appear on the video at about 24:50, about half way round lap 2. From memory i think this coincides with my phone finally exiting its boot loop and restarting the companion app. It's a bit odd as i didn't think the companion app was a necessity, and it still doesnt explain why you all disappeared off my laptop screen on the back straight each lap! Discord on the phone was what caused the issue - seemed to clash with the companion app, as someone above has mentioned.

I'll get something sorted for next time. Found the person issuing instructions really helpful - thank you for that. FElt like each lap we did we got better at staying together and passing other teams.

Looking at the results it looks like, not too far off top-100 for our class.

There is definatley merit in trying it again. Comparing results to the last time we rode that course (only Zilog and I finished both courses of the people who rode on both teams) but the results show similar time for lower power output.

24th September: 43:56
Zilog: 244w
Me: 272w

Last Night: 44:08
Zilog: 233w
Me: 257w

Next week is Greater London Flat so a much better course to try it on:

https://zwiftinsider.com/route/greater-london-flat/

I was interested to see that my average heart rate was a whole 10 bpm lower than the previous tt in spite of the average watts being only 2 less. 1m power and 30s power were both up reflecting me taking turns on the front for a change and explains why, although I feel less tired overall, I can feel it in my legs this morning.

Yeah my HR was lower too, I think due to reining myself in on the pulls by having a target rather than just going full chat 😂 Worked well in the sense that I still had a bit left at the end.
I think we got REALLY lucky on the overtakes as we didn’t have a plan, almost lost a couple of guys off the back with the first one. Maybe we should suspend the pulls as we approach the team to pass, to conserve energy, then push through from the back as we have done before and everyone go hard, so we all get past as quickly as possible? Then when through someone strong needs to take the lead immediately so we can make a gap, and those who need to can rest up.

Nice rides all round. @rj2dj your race report is a good explanation of why we tried to set your expectations beforehand...

More STW that was actually a pretty hard course to experiment on - lots of not really flat, not really a climb. The next two weeks it will a lot easier to put a plan into practice I think. Then after that it goes lumpy (NY ground level roads), still much easier to plan for than today but by then you'll have it dialled in.

Tech issues are so frustrating. WTRL posted on facebook that they are working with zwift to get some event-specific improvements, which would be a massive step forward. We had a phantom rider in our team yesterday (it was weird, we were riding with a gap at times and trusting he was in it) and I've seen the "stuck in the pairing screen" thing in several places recently. It's getting less reliable as a way to keep pedalling in the start delay but it's a bug that can really only get noticed in this particular event.

Yeh that overtake (which killed Haloric) caught me out I am afraid. It might be worth splitting the responsibility for the person calling and having someone else keeping an eye out on the teams in front and behind. We weren't catching them that quick but all of a sudden we just seemed to pick up pace and flew up behind them.

@nixie what software do you capture with? I'm finding that OBS kills the discord overlay (completely, not just fails to capture it, but not always immediately), so I have to choose between recording or seeing the overlay. I've run everything as admin and enabled the overlays setting in OBS. No luck.

They have added 2 more zones for next week so think we will be zone 11 for the 7.40pm race next week.

@robbo1234biking. That overtake nearly finished me off too. I'd just done a turn and got to near the back and then had to sprint as everyone accelerated. In hindsight I should have flagged the group we were catching but I was just concentrating on hitting 300w. So I think a separate person scouting for overtakes is a good idea.

@savoyad that's good news that Zwift are working on the start. 12 mins with no pedalling is ridiculous given the pairing screen option is so flaky.

The problem is whatever they are working on won't necessarily be the start @slowpuncheur. It's the obvious functionality to tackle. But the wider context of the comment was actually the recent issues pulling through results/splits.

@savoyad I'm using OBS studio. Currently only streaming. I don't think I enabled any overlay settings in OBS. Zwift is running windowed. I do have a fairly hefty zwift PC (running max resolution with everything on while streaming and discord).

The problem is whatever they are working on won’t necessarily be the start @slowpuncheur. It’s the obvious functionality to tackle. But the wider context of the comment was actually the recent issues pulling through results/splits.

Indeed much more likely to be forced team jerseys or switching on draft for TT bikes. You know something you genuinely can't live without.

Indeed much more likely to be forced team jerseys

Appropriate seeing as @slowpuncheur struggled with this last night... 😉

Wait now, what now? I was stripy kit on my screen. Check my strava pic. Just Zwift being zwift again I guess.

Edit. I can see I look all wrong on your screen grab on strava. What were people thinking! 😳

At least your socks looked ok on both screen shots! Weird how Zwift does that. I would have mentioned it in ride but was too busy trying to remember if it was a 30 sec pull or 1 min pull!

Indeed much more likely to be forced team jerseys

Did you change kit in the pen ?

I think if you do that you are more likely to look inappropriately clothed to others. I think it can also happen with a bike change too.

If you think about what is happening, when you arrive in the pen, zwift tells everyone your kit and bike, but if you change either, it has to tell everyone again, and I think that does not happen reliably.

I would all for a different kit - quite a few stripy riders last night.

We’ll need a baggy short option though 😉

@haloric. Yes I did. Given I had 10 minutes from the meetup prompt to the start of our effort I thought it was a sensible use of time. At least it wasn't trying to send me to Harrogate like it did on Tuesday

Not sure the STW kit will happen - at least not in the near future.

Although the race series appears to be successful on its own right getting your own kit requires a much higher profile. This could be done one of two ways (neither of which I am sure we have the appetite for).

1. Organise large group rides that would be open in the calendar - this kind of happens with Sunday Hills but would be a more formal arrangement that would require ride leaders and sweepers etc and would regularly be getting attendance in the 100s. Im not sure we have the critical mass on the forum to achieve this without it becoming a burden. A lot of the chat on the group rides is a bit strange as well (even compared to our normal banter).

2. Put the race series out to the wider zwift community. The last series had a total of 80 riders registered. Beyond 100 and the handicap system would become too much of a burden for me to implement so this would be feasible for a wider zwift series. Then it just becomes a normal race series and loses the community feel that we have around the series.

It may be that there is enough interest from the forum to make these things happen but I think there are about 50-100 regular zwifters and if you look across the zwift posts then it is normally around 40 users who a regularly commenting.

I could start a thread to what the interest in in expanding this possibly.

Interesting that a number of complaints on FB today that the draft effect was missing in some teams of for some team members, in some experienced teams who know what they are doing.

It's not the first time that's happened - I've personally had it twice, on one occasion I may as well have riden a TT bike, draft simply wasn't there, on the other it's been a rendering and reporting issue best I can tell in as much as I did draft but I had to be about 10m *in front* of the other riders on screen. The visual simply didn't match up with the physics.

We’ll need a baggy short option though

Team entries are in for this week - 2 laps of Greater London Flat, 28.9km, Thursday 7.40pm

Riders sign up to pen A here https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1695225

Enter as early as you can and I'll get the teams done ASAP.

its a short fast one this week. Cheers Savoyad - all signed up.

Yep signed up, ta!! Could be a good one to practice the pulls again - but I think we need to decide on a strategy for any overtakes (us or them!)

A lot easier on this course though. Blob up a couple of seconds behind, surge past and then likely start the pull order again. Would be harsh on the guys doing 120% 30 seconds pulls to surge past a team and then go straight into a pull so need to be mindful of that.

Being overtaken is a bit easier. Everyone just eases and then we continue the pull order we were in before the overtake happened. Just need a designated spotter on the overtake front (both ahead and behind) as when we were on the flat we were flying and caught them a lot quicker than I anticpated. Luckily less terrain issues to consider.

Bump.

We're on 10 riders at the moment, a few regulars not (yet?) on the list for 2 (more!) laps of London...

Sign up to category A here: https://www.zwift.com/events/view/1695225

We’re on 10 riders at the moment, a few regulars not (yet?) on the list

Was just about to throw my hat in then

for 2 (more!) laps of London…

Ah yeah. About that.

As much as I’ve no inclination to ride in London again, ever....I’m in.

not in going for a nice run in the forest at lunchtime instead, need a few easy days, then I've a tough 7 days from sunday then couple of days off and back to the next series and hopefully TTT's again and in a better place to handle 2 hard efforts

I seem to have convinced myself to do the TTT again this week with a local club. It being flatlands that are well suited for my largeness probably helped.
I initially didn't realize that WTRL determines the club tag based on primary team rather than the username so I was signed up under STW for a while - I hope that didn't cause any confustion.
Good luck all.

Hi @twisty, hope you're well - no, no confusion caused! (There's already always a rider with your (real life) name signed up early and riding in our zone every week, he confuses me sometimes...)

Interesting read if you are bit nerdy. :^)

https://zwiftinsider.com/nearby-zwifters-disappearing/

Teams for tomorrow:

Team STW, +19 minutes, (I know, but just wait until you see the other team!)
@phil56
@paino
@dangeourbrain
@benman
@munkeymadness
@rj2dj

Team MoreSTW, +21 minutes
@w00dster
@slowpuncheur
@trolo1234
@robbo1234biking
@zilog6128
@drew
@haloric
Jack

I can't explain the daft start delays. They added zones this week, so I hoped for less waiting around.

SORRY Adam - pls can I play too ?
Don't mind which team - hoping I'm decentish on the flat but I'm no Phil

(no worries if I'm too late, obvz)

(( adding an @savoyad ))

Yes you can @scaredypants. Ride with STW. (This would have been just the same if you hadn't showed up late, I'm not punishing you.).
There may yet be one more latecomer to add to STW as well...

cheers (probably) !

For MoreSTW here is the plan for tomorrow evening:

300w pulls (or as close as you can make) for either 60secs or 30secs as per the table below.

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@w00dster - would you like to call the pulls on the front this week?
@slowpuncheur - would you like to be overtaking monitor? When we are approaching another team or another team is approaching then highlight it to everyone else.

The route involves two laps of Greater London Flat - there are a couple of minor hills but nothing that should disturb our paceline and there is no need to blob at all for any hills.

The route starts in the pens and has a lead in before we hit the main circuit. On the lead in we go onto Northumberland Avenue which is the steep(ish) hill. We need to be wary as we approach it who is in the lead as we dont want people in the red having to hit the climb hard. Lets play it by ear and see who is there as we approach.

Overtaking other teams

If we are coming up behind another team blob up together when the previous pull ends (w00dster will call this), woodster leads through the overtake, I will pull next for 1 min to allow for some recovery, then resume the order from the previous pull prior to the overtake. If anyone is cooked by that, then they can skip next pull but make us aware.

Being overtaken

Hopefully we wont be overtaken (we are actually the last team to leave our pen) but again @slowpuncheur will highlight if someone is about to overtake us. In that situation we all just east of and who evers turn it is next will take up there turn once there is a 2 second gap to the passing team (approx 20m).

We did this route back in December and the two teams for 43:07 and 43:21 so we have a good target to aim for.

Plenty of time to work out any nuances in the pen before hand! Going to be a long wait - with recent issues I would suggest that we dont use the pairing screen to keep warm but it is up to individuals what you want to do.

Keep the comms going if you have any issues.

I may well gate crash again if ok?

Of course, @nixie, ride with STW.

Both teams are now full. I'll post both line-ups again in my next post.

Team STW, +19 minutes, so in the pen by 19:40 and off at 19:59
@phil56
@paino
@nixie - sort your tag
@dangeourbrain
@benman
@munkeymadness
@rj2dj
@scaredypants - check your tag

Team MoreSTW, +21 minutes, so in the pen by 19:40 and off at 20:01
@w00dster
@slowpuncheur
@trolo1234 - change your tag
@robbo1234biking
@zilog6128
@drew
@haloric
Jack - check your tag

Good luck. That's a good frappe and a good latte. I'll try and follow on zwiftpower live if it's working again.