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Im interested in the Taniwha, but going through the spec sheet and adding X2 and Fox36 forks pushes things up to £6400. This is abviously steep but a unique bike.
When I check out the wheelset pro 4 on wtb i25 rims. These are heavy narrow rims for such a high spec bike.
I notice in NZ the Taniwha wheels are only 3/4 of the weight.
Seems a shame to reduce unsprung weight then bulk it up with heavier wheels.
What are other peoples thoughts on the bike and the spec?
The spec is going to be a compromise because the frame and gearbox come at a high price. Those wouldn't be my choice of rims, I'd probably go for something 30mm from DT or Stans
As for the bike, I'd certainly like a go and to compare it to the Nicolai ion GPI
The hub is just as worrying. Im being presumptious and thinking its the single speed pro 4 thats 465g for the hub!
Stif offer an upgrade which are good but thats £1800 extra (£8200)
The trials/singlespeed hub is listed as 465g, it's not clear from the spec which hub Stif are using. Have you been in touch with Stif? I'd hope they'd have some flexibility but I would prefer the trials hub and some wider rims. Less weight would be nice I suppose but a 160mm bike with a gearbox isn't going to be a featherweight
No but it should be a single speed as no cassette. One of the plus points is the weight saving of rear mech and cassette. Not so good if its made back up with heavier hub. ZERODE NZ hub is 265g and carbon rim. Havent spoken to Stif about the hub, but did speak about the price increase.
I will see if there is any thing they can do and maybe see about a demo
The WTB i25 KOM rims are excellent, see if you can 'upgrade' to those.
Do you [b]have[/b] to go through Stif?
A single speed hub would make sense to take advantage of less dish but the options with a 142x12 (is it 142x12?) axle are limited so a standard hub with spacers could be used. Hope's standard hub is lighter than the trials hub, I don't know why. The pickup is quicker on Hope's trials hub which some may think is important with the gearbox but it's not something that bothers me.
KOM rims are very good lightweight rims but not intended for something like the taniwha. Maybe OK if you are going to treat them gently but are you really?
Get a demo if you can, have you ever used a pinion gearbox? I assume the gearbox is the big draw for this bike?
KOM rims are very good lightweight rims but not intended for something like the taniwha. Maybe OK if you are going to treat them gently but are you really?
I treat mine anything other than gently, on a hardtail and a full sus.
Then I suspect you are either very lucky or very skilled 🙂
Yes its the gearbox that intrigue's me, coupled with an all mountain esque enduro that I don't have in my bike armoury. Not my weekly trail beast (ive got one of those) but a useable weapon when im going to more epic days or just because I fancy it.
Why I think the wheel is so important is the statement from Rob saying about "If you add a Pinion gearbox, take away a cassette (unsprung weight), derailleur( unspring weight), chain guide and [b]build a lighter stronger rear wheel and the disadvantage is[/b][u] ~800g. Given that you have to power yourself and the bike up hills and overcome rolling and air resistance the extra effort required when climbing is almost not measureable. Even if it was I would happily breathe a little harder while cruising up the hills with my mates if my reward was a significant improvement in suspension performance, 600% gear range, stronger rear wheel, almost no maintenance, chains that last years, shifting without pedalling, instantaneous shifting, no chain slap, optimised pedalling etc etc I'd be very surprised if Taniwha owners go back to a derailleur"
The rear is 142x12 and pinnion and Zerode both have a lightweight single speed hub to offer. I think this would be required to get close to the 800g difference, In theory having the single speed alows the zerode sprocket to be inline and a stronger hub that isnt off centered. Its the benefits that im after not the wheel, but a light wheel only really justifies some of the benefits.
The complete build actually looks quite good!
I think the only thing I'd change is the wheelset, as discussed above.
It's an odd choice to spec some run of the mill MTB hubs, when there's the Zerode specific one. I assume Stif get the frame only and don't want to be building up a rear wheel around the Zerode hub.
At that price, I'd hope there's some flexibility from Stif.
I'd probably go for the full build minus the wheelset, then buy the Zerode hub and get a custom set built up.
Did you see this feature the other week?
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/1-question-whats-keeping-the-gearbox-down-2017.html
If not, it's definitely worth a read.
Interesting read, its not really put me off though. I have priced the Zerode direct bike that comes with the fox 36 and added the X2 (comes with the dedicated hub and 35mm carbon rims) for £5938.
They offer 15% off but would have to pay tax and freight. I will speak to stif and see what the options are
Let us know how you get on if you get one, they're top of my bike drool list.
+1 interested to hear of any real life riding experience on the taniwha
£ is significantly weaker against the NZ$ Than it was 6 months ago. Making bikes like this very overpriced. Not good for a company making such a promising bike
Just revisiting this thread because of this
its the single speed pro 4 thats 465g for the hub!
I couldn't work out why the hub would be so heavy. Nor could the guy on the Hope stand at the bike show. The freehub body is steel so may be slightly heavier but the only way to get that weight of 465g must be to include a hefty set of steel bolts, the 142 X12 version will be close to the standard Pro4
Tick.
I'm test riding it soon.
Let me know how you get on. It seemed cheaper to get the bike from NZ with X2 fox forks, lighter hubs and carbon rims.
20% off plus import and freight.
The rear hub needs to be a single speed, light and quick engagement.
The rear hub needs to be a single speed, light and quick engagement
That's the ideal but not essential. You can use a regular rear hub and it will be just as good as the wheels on any other bike. I get the engagement thing but don't personally find it a real issue
Very interested to hear how the test ride goes Onzadog. Not the Zerode but this may make interesting reading
[url= http://m.pinkbike.com/news/nicolai-shootout-derailleur-vs-gearbox-2017.html ]http://m.pinkbike.com/news/nicolai-shootout-derailleur-vs-gearbox-2017.html[/url]
I know that you can fit any rear wheel. But reading the designers brief on the rear wheel he specifically metions the benifits of the lightweight stiff hub
There’s very little resistance and feedback, far less than expected, and certainly no different than a traditional set-up. There’s a freewheel in the gearbox itself as well as in Pinion’s own rear single speed hub used in all of Zerode’s build options, offering almost instant pick-up with minimal fuss. What this also means is due to not needing space for a 10, 11 or 12 speed cassette, the hub flanges can be evenly spaced apart resulting in no dish to the rear wheel and consequentially a far superior rear wheel build – stiffer, cheaper to repair, lighter and ultimately stronger
The bolts add 100g to the weight of the Hope Pro4T hub...
[url= http://www.tartybikes.co.uk/product.php?product_id=13104&keywords=Hope+Pro+4+Trials+%2F+SS ]http://www.tartybikes.co.uk/product.php?product_id=13104&keywords=Hope+Pro+4+Trials+%2F+SS[/url]
As it's got a freewheel in the gear box, live life on the edge and fit a fixed rear hub.
But is there actually a problem with dished wheels? A lot of bikes are using them without a problem?
The weight advantage is from losing the cassette, a freehub is already very light
Pickup varies amongst hubs and for me doesn't make much difference for a trials rider it would be more important
As it's got a freewheel in the gear box, live life on the edge and fit a fixed rear hub
Not sure why this is discouraged, maybe just the safety issue of a chain that doesn't stop unless the wheel stops. Laces/trousers/body part stuck? Too bad!
Humm, there does seem to be limited scope for tuning the drive train.
1. If the gearbox input and output are different, it will never work with an elliptical chain ring.
2. Seems chain rings are limited to pinion only. Their site offers two sizes or a 104mm 4 bolt spider (not to bad, just hope your suspension Busby optimised around anything smaller than a 30t).
3. Rear seems limited to a couple of large sizes from pinion or a similar spider so you can go 30t or over.
4. I'm not up to speed on single speed kit but a quick look around it seems like anything between 22 - 30 doesn't exist, which by my quick number crunching, is probably where I'd like to play with it.
You sure about point 1? the ellipse is for pedalling not for driving isn't it?
Someone does an aftermarket pinion to standard chainring adaptor, I forget who but I've seen a link.
Ooh podge, think for a moment about the orientation of the ring
Pinion do a standard 104bcd adaptor as said, hence the 30t minimum as I don't think smaller fits on 104
You need a coffee this morning 🙂
I'm preoccupied with trying to design GRP steps, checking here while I wait for models to open up.
And yes, I'm an idiot now I think about it, you'd need an elliptical gearbox and round rings.
I think the link I saw wasn't a 104, it was a direct drive or whatever the tech term for it is these days. The ones where you replace the whole ring and spider as one.
2. Seems chain rings are limited to pinion only. Their site offers two sizes or a 104mm 4 bolt spider (not to bad, just hope your suspension Busby optimised around anything smaller than a 30t).
3. Rear seems limited to a couple of large sizes from pinion or a similar spider so you can go 30t or over.
4. I'm not up to speed on single speed kit but a quick look around it seems like anything between 22 - 30 doesn't exist, which by my quick number crunching, is probably where I'd like to play with it.
Why the need to mess around -
2) The bike is going to be built around a Pinion so the suspension *should* be optimised for Pinion sized chainrings. (I know that this was one of the issues Nicolai had originally but now that most bikes are optimised for 1x gearing the Pinion ring is right on the money).
3/4) I've not looked at current spec, but my 26" P18 has a gearrange that's wider than a 3x9 with a 34cassette - lower at the bottom end, higher at the top. The spread on the p12 was only slightly narrower from memory - what do you lose?
The P12 is 600%. The Taniwha is 30/30 which puts all that extra range at the bottom. Replacing the rear with 24, 26 or 28 moves some of that extra to the top while matching my current 1x11 bottom gear.
It looks like the suspension is optimized for the 30t chain ring of the linkage design blog is to be believed.
The opportunity for this bike to be great is there, only to be totally let down by the rubbish gearbox.
There has been talk for years about making a paddle shifter to make it more 'use friendly'. My old X-Ray grip shift 20 years ago was better than the shifter they currently use. It looks like something that is knocked up in a shed. I won't talk about the shifting feature of having to noticeably back off when changing gear is a total pain in the arse.
Hob Nob - I won't talk about the shifting feature of having to noticeably back off when changing gear is a total pain in the arse.
Have you used a system where you have to do this? I rode Alfine off road for about 2 years and it became second nature very quickly. Do you not already back off with standard gears?
Hob Nob never backs off 🙂
My old X-Ray grip shift 20 years ago was better than the shifter they currently use
By chance I have both in the shed, I think the X-Ray is stiffer and more clunky to use. I can't pretend the pinion shifting isn't noticeable though. For me my only complaint is the extra resistance to shifting between 5 and 4, no bother anywhere else.
The opportunity for this bike to be great is there, only to be totally let down by the rubbish gearbox.
There has been talk for years about making a paddle shifter to make it more 'use friendly'. ..
Blah blah blah. Always comes up. Just don't find it an issue in use. The advantage of pull-pull shifting is that the indexing is at the hub and not affected by cable stretch or contamination. The force needed means that it's not easy to make paddle shifters. Theres an aftermarket Mtb solution for Rohloff - though I've been told the action is far too heavy. I saw a road bike conversion using SRAM dual control levers on a Shand at the bike show which looked light to use.
...I won't talk about the shifting feature of having to noticeably back off when changing gear is a total pain in the arse
In 10+ years of using Rohloff and Pinion i just haven't found this an issue. I'm riding 1x11 on a couple of bikes now and you have to ease off on them to shift at times as well, especially if trying to shift multiple gears.
The P12 is 600%. The Taniwha is 30/30 which puts all that extra range at the bottom. Replacing the rear with 24, 26 or 28 moves some of that extra to the top while matching my current 1x11 bottom gear.
Do you really want to do that? The lower gearing on the Pinion is one of the things I really miss riding my 1x11 bikes. I'd always rather have additional lower gears on a mtb. Top end only ever gets used on tarmac on the way to the trails.
The opportunity for this bike to be great is there, only to be totally let down by the rubbish gearbox.
As much as I like it, without the gearbox its just like any other high end, carbon full suspension frame.
simons_nicolai-uk - Member
The P12 is 600%. The Taniwha is 30/30 which puts all that extra range at the bottom. Replacing the rear with 24, 26 or 28 moves some of that extra to the top while matching my current 1x11 bottom gear.
Do you really want to do that? The lower gearing on the Pinion is one of the things I really miss riding my 1x11 bikes. I'd always rather have additional lower gears on a mtb. Top end only ever gets used on tarmac on the way to the trails.
Truth is, I don't know. I'm just making sure I've got as much info as I can before I make a £6000 commitment to a gearbox bike.
Hello all,
Sammy from Stif here. Would just like to give my 2 cents on the choices for the Taniwha's build kit.
Rims - We chose the WTB i25 as its our staff favourite. They are 25mm internal, which we think its plenty wide enough to give a decent tyre profile and have a good strength to weight ratio. We've found that wider rims dent and ding much easier because they have a slimmer wall thickness to keep the weight down. Given the bikes intended purpose - it needs to be pedalled uphill and ridden HARD downhill, these rims are a great choice. I personally weigh over 15 stone and have used the same i25 wheelset for 3 Alps trips, multiple uplift days, plus regular riding without suffering any damage.
Hubs - We've picked the Hope hubs, as again they are a tried and tested staff favourite. Hope hubs work and keep working in grotty UK conditions, are very easy to service and if you are unlucky, Hope have the best backup in the industry.
Its the Trials/SS hub that we have specced, this has a shorter freehub body than a standard hub which means the hub flanges are spaced further apart. This means we can build a dishless rear wheel, which is stronger and stiffer than a conventional wheel. The trials hub also has 80 point engagement (near instant) versus 24 point engagement of the Zerode hub. This really helps efficiency by taking play out of the system, as there is also a freewheel built in the Pinion gearbox. We believe the Hope hub is superior to the Zerode hub for UK usage.
The rear wheel we are using weighs 884g and the front wheel weighs 748g. Thats 1632g - thats pretty damn light for a reliable set of wheels.
I've weighed the hubs too. A standard Pro4 rear hub in 142x12 weighs 242g, the trials hubs we are using (with steel freehub) weighs 288g. The Zerode hub is 275g (claimed).
Everybody whos ridden the bike so far with this wheel setup, has noticed the suspension action is significantly better than any derailleur bike they have ridden.
We have tried the KOM rims on SC Nomads before and written them off very easily. They are great for XC and light trail use but they aren't cracked up for the Taniwha.
If you would like to try one, we have both Medium & Large sizes available for demo. Cheers, Sammy @ Stif
On a mountain bike not having a low enough gear is an issue, not having a high enough gear isn't - when you're descending you're rarely pedalling. That's been the whole argument behind 1x and 2x drivetrains. The range on a 1x is nothing like as wide as a Pinion.
Hi Sammy.
My main problem was the price when speced up against the NZ bike. I did email about this (i dont expect you to talk price on a forum) but never got a reply
Well sammy87 I can't really argue with any of that 🙂 Nice to hear some sound reasoning behind the spec and confirmation about the weight of the hope hub
simons_nicolai-uk - Member
On a mountain bike not having a low enough gear is an issue, not having a high enough gear isn't - when you're descending you're rarely pedalling. That's been the whole argument behind 1x and 2x drivetrains. The range on a 1x is nothing like as wide as a Pinion.
Si, I'm not poopooing the taniwha, quite the opposite. I'm test riding it soon as it's a very real contender on my short list. It is however, quite a departure from the other bikes on that list.
I'm just trying to find out as much as I can including what I may, or may not be able to do with it if I get it.
Maybe I'll love spinning up climbs at 80rpm, or maybe I'll want a higher gear for the unavoidable tarmac linking sections that my local riding involves.
It's a wider range that what I have now, I'm just musing on what I can do with that range.
Cheers! Give me a shout if you need any further info.Rubber_Buccaneer - Member
Well sammy87 I can't really argue with any of that Nice to hear some sound reasoning behind the spec and confirmation about the weight of the hope hub
Thats odd, I'll double check our inbox's, apologies.gixerator - Member
Hi Sammy.My main problem was the price when speced up against the NZ bike. I did email about this (i dont expect you to talk price on a forum) but never got a reply
Cheers, Sammy
Well, my thoughts after riding it are randomly thrown at the page below. However, before I start, it's probably fair to say explain where I'm coming from.
Last year, I built a very nice 650b 160mm bike for both myself and the wife. Long story short, those frames are no more and we're left with a full build kit looking for a frame only. The Taniwha is a really interesting bike, but after talking to Stif, it's complete bike only rather than available as a frame. We went away to crunch numbers and decide if it was still a contender. We decided to give them a test ride but with the caveat that it would have to be significantly better than the frame only competition to justify the cost. Opinions may vary if you're in the market for a full bike at this price.
I had a car park spin and at 5'10", felt better on the large, the wife, just under 5'9" could ride either but decided on the medium.
It's a really nice bike, there's no getting away from that. It didn't feel heavy lifting it into the car and there certainly wasn't any weight issue riding it. You can notice the benefit of the weight sitting in the middle of the bike rather than over the back wheel both in terms of the handling and the suspension action. With the pivot in line with the 30t chain ring, the action was consistant and taught regardless of pedalling effort while in the saddle. It did feel as though it stiffened up if out of the saddle and moving forward, as you'd expect. This is in comparison to another bike I'm testing which has a more supple/active design that feels softer on smoother climbs but offered loads of traction on techy climbs. Because of this, it still feels supple when you throw your weight forward to just clear that last steep step or boulder.
The Taniwha was very composed and predictable in Berman and over tabletops which I think is due to the mass centralisation.
The need to ease off power for the gear shifts was apparent from the start, but improved as the ride progressed. I think it's something that you would learn to work with without it really being a negative. On the plus side, shifting while stationary was more useful that I'd expected.
The rotational shifter required more effort than I'm used to and while the actual gearbox is precise, the shifter itself can feel a bit vague (my understanding is that indexing is in the gearbox, not the shifter). I also found the tapered shifter grip annoying. Most of my gripping of the bar comes from the ring and little finger but having the tapered shifter under the index finger/thumb felt awkward, no mis-shifts, just awkward. It felt better moving the hand off the shifter, but then having to relocate the hand to shift wasn't any better. My wife actually ended up with a cracking blister after less than 3 hours riding.
My least favourite aspect of the bike was the gearbox freewheel. A quick examination suggests that there's 36° of backlash/lag in the system. I found this while trying to clock the cranks for techy rocky climbs to avoid pedal strikes. For the sort of riding I do, I'm not sure this is going to work.
If you winch up fireroads to drop down the other side, this might not be an issue but as I say, my climbs are normally as engaging as the downs.
In fairness to Stif, they've offered me a longer test ride in light of my comments and if anyone is thinking of one of these, I do think a longer test ride would be the way to go. I might take them up on the offer after giving it a bit more thought but right now, my feeling is that it's great bike, bit there's just a few too many niggly compromises for me to up my budget so substantially.
Hope that's of some use to folks.
Wouldnt worry about a fast engagement rear hub as the gearbox has the slowest pick up of anything i have ridden
Wouldnt worry about a fast engagement rear hub as the gearbox has the slowest pick up of anything i have ridden
That's the whole point - the gearbox pickup is one of the weak points. You want the hub to add as little as possible to it (remember the chainring isn't attached directly to the cranks.)
Si, I'm not poopooing the taniwha
I didn't think you were - it's just I'd be very surprised if they gear range isn't in the right place.
I found this while trying to clock the cranks for techy rocky climbs to avoid pedal strikes. For the sort of riding I do, I'm not sure this is going to work.
Interesting. I don't think I've found that an issue on my Nicolai but riding my 1x11 bikes I really miss the abilty to shift without pedalling on techy rock climbs - it's easy to grab a gear in either direction to maximise traction.
Wouldnt worry about a fast engagement rear hub as the gearbox has the slowest pick up of anything i have riddenThat's the whole point - the gearbox pickup is one of the weak points. You want the hub to add as little as possible to it (remember the chainring isn't attached directly to the cranks.)
will be such a small amount.. The gearbox is about 120 degree pickup..
Was horrible to pedal in gullys and on tech where you needed to ratchet the cranks..
Hey Guys,
Sorry to bring back to life and old thread, I was wondering if anyone over at Stiff knew when they might be bringing in the new colours and the new lighter and supposedly cheaper c1.12 gearbox? I quite fancy a blue one!
Thanks!
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