[Closed] Yesterday i went on a group ride. One guy was on an electric bike.

To simplify it, no bikes with motors. Sorted

It does seem to me that regardless of the opinion you might have of ebikes you should be embracing them and the people that come with them whilst they're legal. (of that status changes maybe get back on your high horse)
More people means a stronger voice, if it weren't for all the "I'm not one of them" attitudes being adopted years ago by walkers not wanting to share with horsey folk and then neither wanting to share with mtbs 4x4 etc we'd all be a lot better off.

If for instance the ramblers' association had spent its time campaigning for free access as opposed to free access for walkers, and encouraged all users half the closed-because-of-lack-of-use RoWs would still be about and we'd probably have a huge amount more access for eveveryone. Instead the refusal to share (what's not theirs) at least takes time but likely outcome too from a bigger goal of opening up the country.

This squabbling and subdivision does nothing to help anyone except those who want you off their land.

ebikes = horrible, hateful things and a spawn of satan

I usually ride alone, or with 1 or 2 others.

Each time he was behind me i kept thinking i had a leaf or twig caught between my tyre/frame, but no, it was the whirr of his Bosch motor.

He was in jeans & jumper, long trousers, not breaking a sweat (unlike me).

Is this the future

Did you use his QR axles to nail his hands to a nearby tree, then short the ebike battery to light a fire underneath his writhing body in true 15th century witch-burning Stylee.

Fekin e-bikers, huh!!

hora - Member
e-bikes are ACE. They will really muck with the strava cheaters. All those who go onto leader boards simply to 'win' a segment. I'm convinced most are upto something so it'll be an arms race who can cheat even more...then the proper strava users can use it for what is intended for IMO.

Qwerty- still a dull topic mate.

Sounds a lot like Lance Armstrong's rationale...

This squabbling and subdivision does nothing to help anyone except those who want you off their land.

Why should I care what bike someone else rides

The "it's cheating" argument is very similar sounding to the one uses by those grumpy old hardtail purists about full suss bikes. "I can ride it without a rear shock/full face/knee pads/motor etc etc".

It's a futile and narrow minded argument. Not everyone rides to enjoy suffering. Not everyone's health or motivation to ride is the same.

If someone can afford an e-bike and it gets them out on a bike when they wouldn't previously have done, that's great by me. People off the sofa, money into the bike industry - win/win. The reason behind them opting for an e-bike over a normal bike is wholly irrelevant.

Should motorcyclists be banned? That's much easier than cycling.

How long before we see e-bike bans in the Highlands

There is the hum of the motor I agree, but talk to me about hope hubs on freewheel or long downhills.... Fatbike tyres on Tarmac.. It's just another noise and if your threatened by that .....well I think you do need to work through that one.

I

Are you all saying my mate in his early 50s with knackered hips should give up biking the trails he has enjoyed for years?
Are you saying that I, into my 60s should give up riding trails that I have ridden for 30 odd years due to various old age aches'n pains rather than buy an ebike?

If only I had stuck in at school I could construct an appropriate response.

I will leave with the only response I can currently think off without resorting to using as many swear filter words as I can muster;
What a load of bumptious Prats.........

Thank your lucky stars. I got passed by this a couple of years back.....

[img] [/img]

The medical argument I can understand however if you are not well enough to ride up hill surely you should ask yourself-are you well enough to ride down it?

The medical argument I can understand however if you are not well enough to ride up hill surely you should ask yourself-are you well enough to ride down it?

Thats what I was thinking, I mean the excitement/excessive grinning? could bring a heart attack on shirley?

Look at this bloke on an Ebike, smiling,

[url= https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8290/7569317744_5120746780.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8290/7569317744_5120746780.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/cwSJsm ]Reeth ride 14.07.12 003[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/7904024@N08/ ]jimmyg352[/url], on Flickr

I was holding back from voicing an opinion on this thread as I imagine I'd get an instant lifetime ban for my response to a few of the posts above but I see trekster has got in with a suitable response, well done trekster...I doff my cap to you, although I will chance my luck with [i]you greeting bunch of insufferable ego driven whiney **** cockbags[/i].

I ventured out for a ride to my mates at the weekend on the tripster, it's only 28 miles away and ten years ago I used to comfortably manage this ride in around 90 minutes, these days thanks to an old spinal injury that is coming back to destroy my ability to turn the cranks at any slight rise in the road it took me 6.5 hours to do the 28 miles, most of that was in my lowest gear of 28x36 and my average speed was 4mph or thereabouts, I barely have the leg muscle strength to support my own body weight to stand and move about at work without tripping over my own feet so I can see an ebike in my future as that will enable me to continue cycling, whether or not the [i]stw cognescenti[/i] deem my or any others use of an ebike for whatever reason on any trail is utterly pathetic however you frame your disapproval.

Whether you are fully mobile and fit or somewhat compromised in your ability to cycle matters not one jot, if you are upset that someone else is not suffering as much as you on a bike then you may need to take time out and have a word with yourself.

ie: if you could demonstrate that eBikes caused significantly different enough erosion problems to human bikes to consider banning them (eBikes) specifically then you've shot yourselves in the foot for banning human power as you've just demonstrably split them, so would be harder to take the human access away on the same arguments.

The trouble is that there is no legal distinction between purely human powered bicycles and e-bikes. If it was demonstrated that e-bikes did cause a problem (erosion or something else) significant enough to ban them, that could result in a ban for all bicycles given that's the only way to ban e-bikes. The law does not allow for the possibility of banning one without banning the other.

aracer - Member

If it was demonstrated that e-bikes did cause a problem (erosion or something else) significant enough to ban them, that could result in a ban for all bicycles given that's the only way to ban e-bikes. The law does not allow for the possibility of banning one without banning the other.

Because of course, laws can't be changed or written

This is one which comes down from the EU - I think the UK would have a great deal of trouble unilaterally revoking it.

Ebikes are great and have a place. As is often the case, Germany is way ahead of us in this and they make up a much higher percentage of total bike sales and the rules are clear on speed and use.
I personally would not choose to use one on a group MTB or road ride as it defeats the point for me. But I would not object if others chose/needed to ride an ebike as part of a group ride.
For commuting and replacing short local trips in the car ebikes are amazing. I have a Kalkhoff fitted with two big Ortlieb panniers. I can fill the panniers with shopping and still cycle round hilly Leeds at a respectable speed. If I want to nip up to the allotment (3 miles away) it's quicker to use the ebike than a normal bike, and preferable to driving.
The bikes like Kalkhoff are a completely different class of bike and are true car replacement bikes: enough speed for most trips, enclosed chain, full muduards, integrated and bright lighting and powerful brakes.
I am sure that many of the naysayers on here would have been equally at home 100 years ago wingeing about the introduction of the freewheel or those new fangled multi gear derailler bikes.

The German situation will be interesting to watch, although 100 years ago most cyclists were wingeing about the introduction of the car, and we can see where that ended up 😉

[b]Amedias[/b] - you're far too reasonable 😉

I hope you're right about evidence leading the debate on this, but I fear that in most access forums the debate is heavily tinged with prejudice and self-preservation. Cross-user agreement/alignment is rare, although I think we're seeing more of it, and where one user group is seen as an outside (ie the motorised crowd) then they can get ganged up on very quickly. So perception of MTBers by other user groups is key, and how we handle ebikes in relation to this is very important.

Cutting them loose is what my worried brain says, but I know that's not really how I want MTBers to behave to ebike users, the vast majority of which (at the moment) are just MTBers on a different sort of machine. But as a group engaged in access debate we need to decide how they fit in and we can't just pretend they're "just another sort of mountain bike", as that's not going to wash with the nimbyer end of our fellow countryside users.

Two wheels good! Doesn't matter if they're big, small, fat, thin, carbon, alloy, human powered or with an engine (electric or petrol). The joy and freedom of being on something with two wheels doesn't change. You may get a [i]rush[/i] from pedaling up a big hill that you wont get from a powered bike, but you don't get the equally satisfying [i]rush[/i] from firing a motorbike through and out of a corner on a bicycle. E bikes sit somewhere in the middle but i'm sure they still provide the freedom to explore with the wind in your hair and give joy to the rider. The attitude of some of you stinks tbh, so let me say it again in the hope that you geddit...[b]Two wheels good![/b]

aracer - Member

This is one which comes down from the EU

UK access laws come from the EU?

The whole point of cycling is its powered by you fit a motor and battery it becomes something else .They have a place and if it takes a car off the road then good ,but it`s not really cycling

The trouble is that there is no legal distinction between purely human powered bicycles and e-bikes. If it was demonstrated that e-bikes did cause a problem (erosion or something else) significant enough to ban them, that could result in a ban for all bicycles given that's the only way to ban e-bikes. The law does not allow for the possibility of banning one without banning the other.

That was kind of my point aracer, we are in a position at the moment where they are classed the same, while that is the case it's hard to take action against the large majority (human power) based on [i]potential[/i] problems with a minority. [i]If[/i] it were shown that they are substantially different in terms of impact then that would throw the classification into question, and you couldn't just then ban the human power as you'd have shot yourself in the foot by showing they [i]are [/i]different, and legislation would have to be reviewed, and with that distinction now identified it would again be hard to take action against human powered bikes if you'd agreed they are not the same.

Amedias - you're far too reasonable

Guilty as charged! I tend to come across [i]overly[/i] reasonable online at times because I have the benefit of being able to think about what I type!

What I type is truely what I think though, even if there is a hint* of optimism in there, but I do have major concerns about whether we do as a group have the maturity to work together with other users :-S

I 100% agree with you that there needs to be more thought and discussion about it, and you're right that it is very much about perception, the nice thing about that is that we can have an impact on that as perceptions can be altered through action <-- optimism coming in again!

I also think that perhaps the offroad access thing is being blown a little out of proportion, I think that offroad assisted bikes will always remain in a minority for the very reasons most of us choose to ride offroad will mean that they mostly remain the reserve of those that were already cyclists but for whatever reason now want or need to use them. I doubt we will see masses of normal MTB'ers suddenly gettingt hem 'because it's easier', and we wont see thousands of couch potatos suddenly finding a lust for countryside E-epics either. In town yes, maybe even on green grade family trails at facilitated locations, but not out in the wild, they will probably still be quite rare, and hopefully limited to those that already know how to behave properly to other users.

*may in fact be fricking large dollop of

F-A-T

[img] [/img]

E-B-R-A-P-P

UK access laws come from the EU?

Where did I suggest that?

Yesterday I watched a vid of two motorcrossers on the tightest/skinniest swooping/dropping singletrack that someone had liked on bookface- I didn't know whether to be angry or saddened that using engine braking for most of the clip was considered to be cool for the enduro site. I'll try and find it.

Edit - the trail is probably miles from ride-to but still. I'd LOVE to ride this trail- it gets ace towards the end too

http://www.enduro21.com/index.php/component/k2/item/2752-onboard-%E2%80%93-my-endless-trail

When you said

aracer - Member

This is one which comes down from the EU - I think the UK would have a great deal of trouble unilaterally revoking it.

It's a matter of UK access law whether or not e-bikes are allowed on trails.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/04/hidden-motors-for-road-bikes-exist-heres-how-they-work/

Saving for this, gonna get me some KOMZ!!

I am sure that many of the naysayers on here would have been equally at home 100 years ago wingeing about the introduction of the freewheel or those new fangled multi gear derailler bikes.

this is such commonly trotted out cliché. just because someone doesn't like something new doesn't mean they're anti-progression. what about people who didn't like flex-stems or dual-wheel drive or solid wheels - were they so wrong?

I am sure that many of the naysayers on here would have been equally at home 100 years ago wingeing about the introduction of the freewheel or those new fangled multi gear derailler bikes.

Apples, oranges, pears.

I don't think anybody is whingeing about them being used in the way you describe - blooming brilliant for that IMHO, and the more of them on the roads the better. Because in the same way it's a potential issue that the ignorant masses don't see the distinction for off-road use, lots of them on roads and cycle tracks will help the critical mass of cycling. And I have seen plenty of them being used in that way - very happy to see them (I even saw my first electric uni last week - he might have been using a lot less effort than me, but I was going faster than him 😉 )

Meanwhile the innovations you mention aren't in any way comparable as they didn't completely change the concept of the activity.

It's a matter of UK access law whether or not e-bikes are allowed on trails.

No, it isn't. Not when e-bikes are legally classified as bicycles. You won't find any mention of e-bikes in access laws.

Northwind - Member

Because of course, laws can't be changed or written

This is one which comes down from the EU - I think the UK would have a great deal of trouble unilaterally revoking it.

(though I think we're about 10 weeks late)

The whole point of cycling is its powered by you

Well, for you it is. For me it's certainly a big part of it but not the only part - having fun would be a significant part too.

For others, the having fun part may well be all they care about and so wouldn't have any issue with an electric assist.

FWIW, there were a couple of times on last night's club ride when if someone had offered me one I may have been tempted 🙂

The whole point of cycling is its powered by you

The whole point of cycling is that it empowers you.

If someone has a leg injury, a dodgy heart etc or other health ailment and it now means they can no longer get out into the Lakes or yorkshire dales etc due to their medical condition but the assistance of a ebike would mean its still possible.

[b]I have NO problem[/b] with this.

If a fit, active person who should earn their trail time did this. I'd look at them, smile and say 'wow you must really like exercise' sarcastically.....

If I have an heart condition inthe future I'll get a ebike- no problem. As I dont want to sit looking at ducks in a park.

The whole point of cycling is that it empowers you.
If someone has a leg injury, a dodgy heart etc or other health ailment and it now means they can no longer get out into the Lakes or yorkshire dales etc due to their medical condition but the assistance of a ebike would mean its still possible.
I have NO problem with this.
If a fit, active person who should earn their trail time did this. I'd look at them, smile and say 'wow you must really like exercise' sarcastically.....
If I have an heart condition inthe future I'll get a ebike- no problem. As I dont want to sit looking at ducks in a park.

QFT!

[Feels dirty and ashamed]

Yay Hora

who should earn their trail time

Why should they? Is there a rule? Are you the righteous trail time earning police?

I am sorry but has everyone missed the front disc on that caterham e bike. You could stop a fuggin jumbo jet with that!

The whole point of cycling is its powered by you

For some people the motivation isn't about fitness, or even technical trails it's about gettign out to place X or Y and enjoying the journey.

If someone has a leg injury, a dodgy heart etc or other health ailment and it now means they can no longer get out into the Lakes or yorkshire dales etc due to their medical condition but the assistance of a ebike would mean its still possible.
I have NO problem with this.
If a fit, active person who should earn their trail time did this. I'd look at them, smile and say 'wow you must really like exercise' sarcastically.....

and we're back to the start...

why do *you* get to decied if they've earned it?

why do they/should they have to tell you about their medical condition in order to get your approval?

At which point after meeting you exactly do they have to explain themselves, is it in the inital greeting, some time later, should they carry a pamphlet?

Until/Unless they tell you'll act one way towards them, but if they tell you, you magically become OK with it, nice attitude.

If they kept quiet would you continue to mock them?

Can we please have the official STW 'allowed reasons for using an Ebike', preferably in a little black book so that I can take names on the trails if they don't pass the test?

Apparently heart conditions or leg injuries are allowed, any of the following allowed by you?

- I'm tired today but still want to ride with my mate to place X
- Because I want to go to place Y but it's a bit too far to go without help.
- Because I've got a lot of luggage to carry with me for this trip
- Because I want to and it's none of your business
- Because I get really down if I can't keep up with my friends and it sends me into a pit of depression
- Because I'm trying to build up my fitness and it allows me to go further for longer at the moment, I'm building up to doing this ride un-assisted
- Because I'm route planning/surveying for an event so need to be able to do this on a bike but couldn't manage it without help.
- Any other reason you care to come up with!

I really don't like this underlying suggestion that you have to justify it to someone else. It's not at all pleasant, welcoming or inclusive.

You can take as much pride as you like in the physical struggle of cycling. This is fine, I do it, no worries there. But you can't force your values on other people. You shouldn't judge them, and you definitely shouldn't make disparaging sarcastic comments. That's utterly shitty.

I think Hora should be forced to ride a rigid fixed gear bike with 1.5" tyres and weighing 30lbs to ensure that he's earning his trail time. Anything else is just cheating and the bike making life too easy for him.

But you can't force your values on other people. You shouldn't judge them, and you definitely shouldn't make disparaging sarcastic comments. That's utterly shitty

this ^

Nemesis I transport Unicorn tears by the kilo over old packhorse routes in the Lakes so Im exempt.