Yes, axles used to fail in the middle in the days of blocks, one of the plus points of the shimano system was to spread the bearing as far apart as possible and better support the axle.
I might be wrong here, but isn't that only with shimano hubs (and some similar) where the freehub bolts on and becomes an integral part of the hub, pushing the main bearings out under the cassette? A hope or dt hub has the 'wheel' bearings (as opposed to freehub bearings) more or less under the flanges regardless of freehub design.
Looking at an OEM cycle unless there is more in the pipeline are we looking 2020 for anything other than an XTR Factory build from a product year company?
Elsewhere i saw mention that DT already have the new freehub ready to go.
I might be wrong here, but isn’t that only with shimano hubs
There may be others who do it, but it is one of the big advantages with shimano's design, bare in mind that axles are getting longer with boost so the unsupported axle length is also growing. Last axle i snapped was a Hope for reference, and it went at the point you expect it to go, the end of the hub shell bearing in the middle.
Last axle i snapped was a Hope for reference, and it went at the point you expect it to go, the end of the hub shell bearing in the middle.
That would be in the ProII snapping days?
bare in mind that axles are getting longer with boost so the unsupported axle length is also growing
Is that true?
Is that true?
I don't think so. Boost grows the hub from the middle.
Don't think so, extra length is in the hub shell - unless he means didtance betwen the bearings inside the hub
Yeah, only if the freehub body was made wider would that be the case. I think. The drIveside flange (and bearing) is the same distance from the point the axel is held in the frame, isn't it?
Yeah, only of the freehub body was made wider would that be the case.
The bit in the middle is growing, the axle can flex more. part of the reason why very long headtubes aren't a great idea. At some point you need to start supporting the axle in the middle to deal with flex, you can oversize the axle, but if the central bore of the freehub is narrower to cope with the smaller 10spd sprocket you either end up with a step in the axle, or tiny bearing that last minutes, or both.
but if the central bore of the freehub is narrower to cope with the smaller 10spd sprocket you either end up with a step in the axle, or tiny bearing that last minutes, or both.
I don't know if it applies in all cases but I think the dt freehubs have the same outer bearing between normal and XD, it's just the freehub itself that has been cut away. Although now I look it up the hope pro4 is different.
Perhaps someone should move the bearings into the frame…
From that picture link up there ^^^ it does look like centrelock on the larger cogs and 10t XD on the end. Looks interesting.
I really hope shimano do use the xD driver, not that I expect they will. Life was nice and simple when everyone used the same one. The xD does the job, doesnt cost to use the patent so why not? The cynic in me thinks it might be to reduce competition and therefore protect margins as your bike will be wedded to a freehub design thus restricting competition between the 2 big S's
From that picture link up there ^^^ it does look like centrelock on the larger cogs and 10t XD on the end. Looks interesting.
Didn't early saint hubs use cup and cone & cartridge bearings in best of both/worst of both kind of system - they do have form for that sort of stuff
They have a published patent application here for a method of mounting a cassette with a cog of 10t or less:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20180009505A1
The description sounds like it's describing a small 10t sprocket that attaches to the lowest sprocket (11 or 12t) on the cassette off the end of the freehub body?
They might not necessarily be using this patent though.
Mrmo wrote,
Last axle i snapped was a Hope for reference, and it went at the point you expect it to go, the end of the hub shell bearing in the middle.
They snapped there because of poor engineering and poor customer service- when Hope "developed" their 12mm axle they just took the old blank and made the hole bigger. It just wasn't strong enough, and had a lovely stress riser to boot. DT had the same issue for a short time, so they fixed it, Hope never bothered and instead got lots of lovely "aren't hope helpful" posts when they replaced their defective product with another defective product for free. Hurrah!
Early Saint hubs used cup and cone bearings with (replaceable bearing surfaces) in the hub shell and cartridges in the serviceable freehub. Arguably the best of both as the bearing types are suited to their respective load types and no issue with hub shells being binned due to worn surfaces as they were available separately.
Something pretty damn awesome is about to come…
Is it 2016 😉
Watching with interest, but will need some serious persuasion it’s worth me giving up my XD based drive trains. Totally agree that introducing a new free hub here would just becommercialism - trying to own the market. XD needed to be different to solve the problems posed by the old Shimano hub. There is no such requirement here.
What if Shimano have some way of making the new freehub backwards compatible though, so that new Shimano hubs can run both old and new cassettes? Not likely, but if they did, it would be a good reason to use their own design.
They have a published patent application here for a method of mounting a cassette with a cog of 10t or less
Looking at the illustrations the (rather small) cassette end bearing appears to be pressed directly into the smallest sprocket, with two bearings in the hub shell... Not sure I like that idea TBH, what I did notice was that the smallest sprocket shown in fig4 appears to be a 9 tooth.
That patent app looks more like an updated take on the old capreo design mentioned earlier, i.e. A shortened HG body with the smallest 2/3 sprockets keyed into one anothers faces, all held in place by a dinky lock ring... Which sort of begs the question, why didn't they develop this earlier? And are they going to sit on a 9t sprocket for a year or two just to give the next mid life face-lift release an extra selling point?
Will they have changed the way it all works though, 11spd works so much better than anything else including older xtr, apart from dropping chains backpedaling, however i recently replaced the shimano 42t cassette with a 46t sunrace and it doesn't drop the chain at all now.
Wonder if the new XTR freehub uses that neat disengagement feature that Dura-Ace has now. Can't see many who invest in new XTR caring about the cost of a new freehub in all that.
The bit in the middle is growing, the axle can flex more. part of the reason why very long headtubes aren’t a great idea.
There are positives in a longer unsupported central steerer tube section. It's only a negative if you have a fatigue-prone steerer design. Axles are different. OT I know, pedantic I know : )
Next snippet from elsewhere, current 11spd SLX, ST and XTR are fully 12 spd compatible. I have no idea if this is true but the claim is that there is a spacer in the shifter that can be easily removed to enable an extra click....
Having tried to dismantle shimano shifters in the past i am not volunteering to find out!
There are positives in a longer unsupported central steerer tube section. It’s only a negative if you have a fatigue-prone steerer design. Axles are different. OT I know, pedantic I know : )
I cut a huge groove in a 1 1/8th carbon steerer, a slight bump in a weld on the lower side of the top tube inside the headtube. It was creaking for weeks before i decided to investigate. Glad i did!
i'll just leave this here
ooosh
Does look worryingly like three aluminium cogs. Boooo.
The comments i have seen have it as Ti cogs, as per now, find out officially tomorrow.
If you look how big the cut outs are for the bigger cogs i would be a little surprised if it turns out to be aluminium.
Looks an interesting freehub design for that... be interested to see the proper info.
Someone may have made a mistake and it seems to have gone now.
I rather like the look of that. They look to have gone down the SRAM/RaceFace route with attaching the chainring to the crank.
Have I missed something re the cassette? It would seem that it would be unavoidable for the three largest rings to be made from anything other than aluminium?
Bodes well for XT - a refresh is due next year IIRC.
That is likely to be another direct mount chainring interface standard, which will delight the aftermarket manufacturers.
That looks bloody lovely. I do like Shimano stuff..well, except their hubs.
if shimano need a crash test dummy to check it back peddles, pick me pick me
Not skipping ratios when backpedalling would be a huge bonus!
It's a nice, clean design. I guess that Shimano's 96mm BCD is now history? It won't be missed.
PJM1974
Have I missed something re the cassette? It would seem that it would be unavoidable for the three largest rings to be made from anything other than aluminium?
SRAM avoided it just fine.
You learn something new every day. I didn't know that...
XTR has traditionally been a mix of steel and Titanium cogs, i see no reason to believe that the M9100 cassette won't be the same mix. The small cogs steel and the larger ones Ti.
Hopefully that price will be ball park with the existing 11spd XTR at c£200. It is personal opinion but i think that it looks alot nicer than SRAM. Am wondering about Di2, no images, no mentions etc.
The biggest Sram cogs are aluminium, and a massive weak point. They are replaceable, but as I found out when mine wore, Sram originally meant to sell replacements, but then realised that'd lose sales on £300 cassettes so sacked the idea off (same as when they said "X0 9 speed is expensive, but if you break an arm you can buy a replacement", then realised that'd reduce mech sales of a flawed mech design so didn't sell them separately). Thank god for One Up.
Mrmo- have you got a source for the rumour about modifying the 11spd shifters? That'd be very, very interesting and could be the death knell for the XX1 on my Patrol.
What you can't tell from the pictures is whether they've switched to metric i.e. 1/2" to 10mm pitch chain
The chain is the same as 11 speed so I assume pitch and cog spacing has been maintained and the cassette is just 1 tooth wider.
