[Closed] XC numbers down?

SXC AGM is coming up soon, might be an opportunity for a few on here to put their ideas into action, rather than pointlessly posting them on the internet. Other series are available.

There is certainly a lot more talk than action. If you are involved in a club think about putting on a race. That's what we're doing next year. More, regional or just grass roots and importantly easy accessible races should slowly build up numbers. It's a lot of fun planning a course. And while I'm at it a plug, assuming paper work gets accepted by NRW, w'll be hosting an event seconds off the m4 in Wales next April. Will be very gorricky, lots of flat but flowing and rooty singletrack, a fair bash of fire road and a couple of good descents. 😀

i really can't be doing with traveling for more time than i am going to be racing.

That even includes 2 regionals and 1 national that are pretty much within riding distance (one you could even ride and race).

Actually easier for us to go and race in Denmark. But far less interesting.

Interesting comments about people being 'too quick' for their category and sandbaggers, it's not really something I've noticed in my local races (South West)

While I do think it's unacceptable for people to knowingly enter a lesser category in order to place, I do find the mindset behind the complaint a worthy of a some thought and discussion.

Personally I race to improve [i]myself[/i], I use the other people in the race as motivation, and as a measuring/comparison tool but ultimately I race to better my own placing and my own times, sometimes that means after a year of hard work just about scraping into a Sport top 10 when tehre's a small field, other times it means desperately trying to get myself into the top half of a bigger field, but it's always about improving [i]my results relative to my previous results, not relative to the field on the day[/i], and I would race just as hard wherever I was in the field, I'm unlikely to ever be able to move up from Sport but that's because I'm not fast enough, not because I'm being denied a place.

If the people at the top of Sport were to move up to E/E then that would just put me relatively higher in Sport, but not enough to move up to E/E or I would have gone with them, and the cycle would continue, so I find it hard to understand the gripe, if You want to race at the top end and get a decent placing then you have to literally be at the top of the field, in fitness, technique, everything. If you're not there then why would you have an expectation of placing?

It just sounds a bit like complaining that you're bgin denied a place by someone faster, like you [i]expect [/i]to be able to place, if you're genuinely quick enough then you will advance and move categories accordingly, and really this is only an issue in Sport and below isn't it? People really pushing for E/E placings aren't going to drop down to Sport or Open just to rank higher in a lower category, are they? It would completely defeat the point of your racing, if that genuinely does happen then that's pretty poor, but I don't notice that being the case at any races I've entered.

So, maybe this isn't really about placing and sandbagging, but simply that XCO isn't offering anything enjoyable for the average rider, who just wants to race against people of similar ability, and that it's symptom of people being forced to enter categories above their ability because of the lack of a decent Fun/Open offering?

Maybe it's a mindset thing, someone earlier posted about not wanting to get dropped immediately and slog round on your own, and I get that, but that's happened to me (and most other racers at some point), the difference is if you're really up for it you'll keep going, and keep coming back time and time again trying to get dropped later.

Simply dropping down a category if its available would get you the other people to race against, but it wouldn't change the effort you have to put in, all you've done is make yourself feel better as your relative placing is higher, but if you compare against your own previous performance its no different. And at some point someone slower than you would be complaining you should move up a category 😉

So I guess what I'm saying is I think this might actually jsut be a symptom of dwindling fields and a self fulfilling prohpecy, the numbers go down, so all that's left are the hardcore fast ones, which puts off the newcomers and midpack riders, which means numbers dwindle and repeat till irrelevancy...

to be destroyed by the majority of the field when you race.

Cheeky Bast... 😉

The hard part is fatigue on this sort of stuff. For October stats, Strava has me at 21 hours, 450km, 108PR's and 20 activities.

Is it? I've done 20hrs, 502k with 16 activities this month. Bear in mind my two mid-week rides are Turbo's and I don't commute, and I don't feel the need to rest during the training season as I'm off the bike/turbo every other day. And amongst my local peers I'm well down on time.

Maybe if you want to race, you need to stop [i]riding [/i]and start [i]training[/i]. The two are very different.

Being an old (emphasis) git I'm out of the ability categories and in an age category.

I only dabble at the sub regional level eg Gorricks, Banjo, Bestway etc.

It's taken me 3 years from first race to getting to trouble the podium occasionally. For something worth doing that seems about right. It's taken a large increase in my knowledge base, training time and equipment, again that seems reasonable.

I have tried XC racing and like others I found getting dropped within 200m of the start a tad demoralising, add to that rocking up for the fun race in baggies and flats, and seeing a racing whippet in full lycra on a very light carbon hardtail line up next to you, made me question if I had entered the right cat!

I go to XC races as they (southern xc/rampage) have a great social scene for childrens racing and the parents, but if it wasn't for my children I doubt I would go, in addition it is knowing the other parents that makes things more interesting!

CX and enduro seem to have nailed the social aspects of racing (meander the transitions and nail it) or the racing aspects no matter your level, (CX race I have always been racing someone even if we were both BOP!)

Maybe if you want to race, you need to stop riding and start training. The two are very different.

Agree with what you're saying, but that's not going to happen in my world. Riding is mostly about the enjoyment, the pleasure, the passion. Training is purely about the killing yourself in a souless way to hit whatever that days goals and targets are, be that FTP, tempo, recovery etc... It's sucking the 'pleasure' out of the riding, both indoors and outdoors.

Of course, the consequences of this mentality means that i won't improve at the rate (or possibly to the levels) that someone on a structured training plan will be able to.

the problem for me with putting in extra hours is the same as for most, time and availability.... It's an excuse possibly, but it's valid. Also, the majority of my rides are around 1 hour, so getting more 'hours' on a monthly basis means more days... that's what lifestyle generally dictates for me.

in addition it is knowing the other parents that makes things more interesting!

I have laughed once or twice at a parents attitude at XC Rampage, i think he knows inside my boy will win (if he doesn't bloody crash) and seems to avoid chatting to me at times... or maybe i just have nothing of interest to say to him LOL. Although i was complimenting his lad yesterday as he was looking likely (and did) wrap up the 8's catagory yesterday with another 2nd place.. But i was still surprised he wasn't very chatty, not sure if because he's not chatty, or he sees my boy as a threat.

I was also quite shocked the race previously that 2 kids had come in complaining about being elbowed and pushed aside.... in the 8 and under catagory ! No-one actually said which kid it was, but that really shocked me. Despite the fact they're pushing hard, they're all still quite delicate at this age and that just seems a bit nuts to me.

It just sounds a bit like complaining that you're bgin denied a place by someone faster,

In which case I didn't word my post very well.

I've been on both sides of the fence, being moaned at for racing in a lower class and sitting there on the start line watching the fast lads clear off wondering why I'm bothering. I know what I prefer! I don't begrudge anyone racing any category they want - anyone I know would much rather be at the sharp end contesting a win. I don't even begrudge those pot hunters who drop down a category to give themselves more of a chance. You pays your money...It certainly happens in the SE series, I'm not going to name names but if you've raced down here you'll know who they are.

My issue is that quite a few lads are good enough to go up a cat but the stupid system that BC have in place doesn't allow this. To get top 15 in the country you need to do all the National rounds really which for some just isn't possible. And it's not like Expert is overrun with riders!

Additionally, I think that a Cat 2 road license should equal an Expert license in MTB (Note: I think this is possible to request but should be mandatory). I stood on the start line having a laugh with a couple of lads who had finished 1/2 in the local E/1/2/3 the weekend before. They couldn't believe they were racing a sport race either - needless to say the next time I saw them was in the car park.

I think there has to be a 'carrot' to make racing worthwhile for most - I'm not sure 'Sport' should be the smashfest it currently is and for most, this is probably what puts them off racing. Why would you travel for a couple of hours to do a race where you know you'll be lucky to get top half of the field.

Following this with interest- I've been thinking about giving XC a 'serious' go this winter and maybe into next summer, but if I'm honest I share the option of a lot of driving to take a kicking. Part of that is nerves at rocking up to what will be about my 3rd or 4th ever XC race and not knowing how fast everyone will be.

For reference it sounds like I'm fitter than average- coming from ironman triathlons my ftp is in the 4w/kg region (and I'm just over 80kg). I actually worry more about the technical courses because I don't have the experience of riding them whilst breathing out of every orofice.

The solution? For me it's MTFU and try a few races- I know it will take months of training and racing regularly to become anything like competitive even in the lower categories. So I'm training 8-12 hours a week on the road bike/mtb/ gym to try and make the grade!

I appreciate that not everyone wants to go through their the process of taking a kicking and training super hard just to not get dropped, so those people need to get together and race each other rather than complaining everyone else is too fast because they are training hard. Just my 2p.

Re comments about w/kg.. when I came last in sport I was the fittest I've been 72kg/279ftp gave me a 3.8w/kg.

alwillis - Member

I appreciate that not everyone wants to go through their the process of taking a kicking and training super hard just to not get dropped, so those people need to get together and race each other rather than complaining...

Most of the punters/bimblers* we're talking about here, aren't complaining, they're just not xc racing. They're off doing half a dozen other fun things with their weekends/lives. They're happy as pigs in that stuff that pigs like.

(*this is me)

the problem is that races need to attract the average punter, they need dozens (hundreds?) of largely useless** people to pay £20 in return for an hour or so of bike racing, and have so much fun they're happy to do it again, and again, etc. The question is how?

(**me again)

Seems like XC has got a whole load of problems, different ones depending who you ask.

Those of you complaining about getting a kicking in Sport, how seriously do you take it with training, weight etc? Just wondering if you are fast, dedicated racers or weekend warriors giving it a go?

I used to enter sport in local races back in the 90s, where I'd be fighting to get out of the bottom third. I would expect it to still be a tough category at any level, but it's surprising to hear that some series just jump from fun to sport.

I know a few people who like myself do the odd XC race, are reasonably fit but are in no way dedicated to the discipline - and I think having an open category is vital to allow progression.

My local series (Midweek Madness) seems to attract a good spread of abilities and I'm seeing some crossover from enduro and DH. I don't think the future is necessarily bleak for XC and I think it could even feed off of the increasing focus on fitness in enduro.

Agree with what you're saying, but that's not going to happen in my world. Riding is mostly about the enjoyment, the pleasure, the passion. Training is purely about the killing yourself in a souless way to hit whatever that days goals and targets are, be that FTP, tempo, recovery etc... It's sucking the 'pleasure' out of the riding, both indoors and outdoors.

I agree with that, even when I was training seriously (as seriously as I got anyway) it still needs to be fun, otherwise why bother?

Cmparing my times with Sport around here and I'd be placing about 10th instead of 30th in Vets - must have had a few characters at your race 😉

Training is purely about the killing yourself in a souless way to hit whatever that days goals and targets are,

It doesn't have be though. OK, so I may have intervalled the **** out of legs midweek, but I enjoyed "intervalling" my way to/from our Saturday easy ride (z2), and gaining a top 3 Strava on one of the climbs, followed by a social MTB ride yesterday within which there was plenty of opportunity to pull out some interval type riding - 8 mins over threshold on singletrack isn't to be sniffed at. I thouroughly enjoyed that, and the slower banter-ridden bits (z2/rest).

But why raise the question of w/kg if you have no intention of improving it or racing?

Those of you complaining about getting a kicking in Sport, how seriously do you take it with training,

My 'best' season had me doing between 12 and 15 hours a week, a coach and training with power. I was around 4w/kg and my best position at a Nationals was 56th.

It just sounds a bit like complaining that you're bgin denied a place by someone faster,

In some cases it will be that, but i still feel its more of a case of a lacking system.

I'll use myself as an example, back in my late teens I took up Table Tennis, I joined a team and started off in Division 4. That first year I won half my games which means the competition was fun lots of players at a similar level.
The following season due to a bit of a league restructure and the fact I was improving fast saw the league double promote us into division 2. I worked hard and again had a fun season again winning half my games.
Season 3, still in division 2, i'd improved a bit more and won near 80% of my games, we won the league, got promoted, happy days.
Seasons 4-9 saw a gradual grind up the first division, starting out with a 20% win rate and ending up with a 70% win rate and playing some national league games.
The point of all that being, I started as a total beginner, and over 9 seasons of progression, there was always a place where I was competing at the correct level.

Now around 5 years ago I gave up TT and took up cycling. In my mind, i've followed a pretty similar progression curve. I don't have power, but from various sources estimate my FTP @ ~3.8W/Kg, maybe a touch higher. I can finish top third of GT7/10UTB, I have a few uphill Strava KOM's, so consider myself quite far from unfit (although clearly far from great too). And yet if I want to race XC Sport cat, 5 years solid training and improvement under my belt has got me to a place where I can maybe finish 2nd last.
Which is fine, but where is the appropriate level of racing for the first 5 years of improvement, or for the guys that are simply not as dedicated or as fit. Where are the equivalent of division 3/4 as it were? It doesn't exist, and without that level for people to progress through and still feel like they are competing with others on a similar level then the sport is going to stagnate and decline.

But why raise the question of w/kg if you have no intention of improving it or racing

I've never said either of that...

I have every intention of both raising my W/Kg and racing again in the coming few months/year... However, i don't see myself using a structured plan like yourself (and others i know), which of course may be detrimental to my potential results, but i have to live with that.

I'll be racing XC Rampage next year as i need to be able to keep up with my boy and he's catching me 🙂 But mostly, because i'm trying to get fitter/faster/slimmer and racing is a good incentive to not have that 5th chocolate hob-nob.

The problem with fitness is how specific it is! I have done a couple of ironman races, and even then when i moved over to XC and CX I really struggled! ironman is about maintaining a certain pace for X hours! XC racing is much more about max efforts then quick recovery before repeating (until you are sick it would seem!).

fifeandy - Member

They asked for feedback after last season via a rider representative and were given the exact same feedback along with a fair range of suggestions via the Trail Scotland forum. They then chose to ignore all feedback and carry on exactly as before.
Unsurprisingly, participation levels have not increased.

There's a different committee for 2016, worth raising the same issues again.

Or start your own series. 😉

The problem with fitness is how specific it is! I have done a couple of ironman races, and even then when i moved over to XC and CX I really struggled! ironman is about maintaining a certain pace for X hours! XC racing is much more about max efforts then quick recovery before repeating (until you are sick it would seem!).

Agree totally with that. I've found recently that (something i already knew really) i'm much better at grinding out the pace/power in a simple flat rate rather than sprint/slow.... I'm just way more suited to getting my HR up around 92% and keeping it there, rather than 98% > 85% > 98% > 85% etc.

[quote="weeksy"]Riding is mostly about the enjoyment, the pleasure, the passion. Training is purely about the killing yourself in a souless way to hit whatever that days goals and targets are, be that FTP, tempo, recovery etc... It's sucking the 'pleasure' out of the riding, both indoors and outdoors.I quite enjoy the training, riding stuff as fast and as hard as i can. Or in some cases, faster than i'm really capable (scars everywhere!). Riding with other riders who are a) far fitter and b) far more technically able, to see how to improve. Knocking out long intervals and base mileage to see (and chart) improvements in power and recovery and so on.
For comparison 21 hours was (about) 8-9 days training for me when i was an amateur, with a full time job, and less than a week riding full time.

Most of the sport riders i knew (the ones at the front) were doing almost as many hours as i was to finish single digit placing in Elite.

Thing is, you need to be reasonably fit to even enjoy the early stages of it. My current state of fitness, i'll hate it. And doubt if i'll ever be able to get back into it.

@phil40 that's my fear/training in a nutshell!! I haven't done an XC race in a few years, and have never trained for it, so have no illusions of how fit I think I am!

For comparison 21 hours was (about) 8-9 days training for me when i was an amateur, with a full time job, and less than a week riding full time.

That's putting at say 3 hours per night with a couple of days off...

That's straight to divorce court for me and being a neglective parent.... simply not an option.

Bbut does highlight the levels of training/ability/fitness required in the real world to get to these sorts of positions.

If fields are down then why don't we bin the age cats, and just have fun, Sport, Expert, Elite (or mirror the road 4/3/2/1/E). After all it stupid that at 39 you race one race and then the next year a different one for no reason.

Also image is a huge issue in the UK. Chipps can say there is no interest and BC are to blame, but he needs a hard look in the mirror, as this site / mag promotes almost zero XC racing. How will people do something or become interested if they aren't aware of it?

[quote="weeksy"]That's putting at say 3 hours per night with a couple of days off...

Yeah, i appreciate that, it probably would be for me these days. It'll be all about sacrifices. Training before work, training after dark. And so on.

I might manage, i might not.

Thankfully it'll probably not lead to divorce as my partner is also encouraging me to get back into it, as she spent about 10 years on the pro circuit in Europe, so she knows what it's like.

Why would you travel for a couple of hours to do a race where you know you'll be lucky to get top half of the field.

This is what I mean though about the different mindset.

You (well I do) go to a race to race, and to better yourself, if you go with an expectation of a placing (whatever that may be) then that's a different thing entirely, especially when it starts to become a reason to NOT go because you think you won't place well.

That's the bit I struggle with getting my head round, I go to races to ride my hardest, I enter my category and then I race, if that's turning myself inside out for a top 10 or turning myself inside out for a 2nd from bottom its the same thing, I certainly wouldn't deliberately not go because I might not do well.

I'm not for one second suggesting everything is tickety-boo and no room for improvement, definitely not, I think the categorisation could work better, and racing could be more open and inviting, but I just struggle to get my head round not entering because you wont do well, I have to wonder why you were considering entering at all if you can only enjoy it on the basis of 'doing well' if that makes sense?

I enjoy myself just as much no matter where I place, I only feel disappointed when I feel I've not done as well as I could (in relation to my own performance).

ie: I'd be pissed at myself if I came 11th when I could have got 10th if I'd tried harder. But I wouldn't be pissed at myself for getting 23rd if I'd given it my all.

does that make sense? I know sometimes it's hard to explain properly online.

You've got no idea . Few years ago i worked out that to do the regional and national XC series would have involved something ridiculous like 7000km of driving. For 12 races. Three of the national series events would have involved over 1000 km round trips, one was about 1800km.........
The most distant regional race was slightly over 600km.

The only race i did this year involved a round trip of 2400km, and then i overslept!

Unless you are serious you are unlikely to travel far, which means far more local races. More races more people, more going up categories, etc. If i wanted to race cross there are plenty of local races, road isn't too bad, but MTB, very little.

I enjoy myself just as much no matter where I place, I only feel disappointed when I feel I've not done as well as I could (in relation to my own performance).

ie: I'd be pissed at myself if I came 11th when I could have got 10th if I'd tried harder. But I wouldn't be pissed at myself for getting 23rd if I'd given it my all.

does that make sense? I know sometimes it's hard to explain properly online

Of course, makes complete sense. I had the same in motorbike racing for a few years... but it was helped by the fact i WAS battling with other racers, so even for 25th place for example, the battle was there corner after corner, lap after lap.... Which is what made it 'racing' rather than XCing with others somewhere else on the same course.

[quote="amedias"]I know sometimes it's hard to explain properly online.Many people compare themselves by placing, or time behind the leader, not how hard they went. So seeing the entire field disappearing up the start straight is demoralising. Being lapped on a 3 lap race is depressing, being pulled out at the end of the second lap because you've been lapped is insulting.

Especially when the only people you've seen since the end of the start is the fast riders in your category lapping you.

Which is what made it 'racing' rather than XCing with others somewhere else on the same course.

Yeah, and I guess that's the bit that is lacking (in all cats) due to dwindling numbers. A fine line to tread getting them right, with the right numbers of people at all abilities.

I'm not being put off, as I'd keep turning up anyway, the course and myself are as much my opponent as the people I race with, and I always find there's at least a couple of people of similar ability to me, but I can see how it might be different in other circumstances, and obviously bigger fields would improve that somewhat, but it's very 'chicken and egg' as to how to fix it.

eing pulled out at the end of the second lap because you've been lapped is insulting

Yes, and that's surely symptom of the categories being too wide in terms of ability? or as people have suggested, people racing in the 'wrong' category, whether that's too high or too low.

from reading this thread it does seem like it can be quite location dependant too, some series are clearly worse than others.

This thread is totally responsible for me just this minute entering a race.

😐

As above, having become comfortable with where I typically position, I now see my job is to improve on it. I'm not going to win Eastern, and may come top 5 London, buts its nice ( in a 😈 way) to have something to aim for.

Kryton57 - Member

This thread is totally responsible for me just this minute entering a race.

Is it the Gorrick in a fortnight ? If so, sod it... i'll enter too if you have. !

Yes, and that's surely symptom of the categories being too wide in terms of ability? or as people have suggested, people racing in the 'wrong' category, whether that's too high or too low.

[quote="Kryton57"]As above, having become comfortable with where I typically position, I now see my job is to improve on it.I hate to go on about it, but you have actually got a coach now haven't you? This is almost the perfect time of year to start training (properly) for 2017.

the problem is that races need to attract the average punter. the question is how?

Seems to me the problem is the punter, not the races. If you want to race, as in strap on a plate and race, then do it. If you're not where you want to be, then train, work on your weaknesses, sort your diet, hit the gym, put in the miles. If you're not willing to do that then you probably won't ever be as fast as the guys at or near the front.

The sandbagging thing has many sides. Some folk just don't have the time to dedicate themselves to ride the next category up and that's fair enough. There are many BMX, 4X, enduro riders racing masters and vets that would still hold their own in more competitive categories but don't have the time or the desire to train any harder than they do. If I'm riding masters and get beaten by a vet, or a master that was elite the previous year, then I need to either train harder or accept that I will not finish above that rider. No point expecting them to 'ride up'. I also understand that some folk want to race up but cannot because of the system which is no fault of theirs.

I understand that organisers want people to attend the races but I don't feel that they should water down their races so people attend. For me, racing is racing. You strap on a plate, sharpen you elbows and race. I don't mean be rude or anything but it's meant to be competitive. It was interesting to see some of the reaction to the Gee Atherton Foxhunt helmet cam. He's got that mentality but a lot of people were critical of his attitude but he's a racer.

Maybe the average punter isn't a racer.

Is it the Gorrick in a fortnight ? If so, sod it... i'll enter too if you have. !

Nov 6 Autumn series, yes. Lets have a coffee and laugh at our results once we can brath again after. 😀

I hate to go on about it, but you have actually got a coach now haven't you? This is almost the perfect time of year to start training (properly) for 2017.

I've agreed to work with a coach on the basis he's free to do so, yes, I'm self Trainer-roading until he contacts me. He's most likely watching this thread 🙂

Fwiw, I do 6-8hr riding a week in a hard training week, I can't fit in more, or deal with the fatigue if I push it what with all other commitments. I've strava top tenned in climbs at the trail centres And cross I'm in the top quarter of all seniors at races this year. Yet in sport cat I'm mid field at best, more commonly bottom quarter. Ignoring hte fact I'm not great technically and have had fear issues this year leading to b-line riding, that to me says that sport isn't quite at the level it should be. I do t have an issue with the front though, it's solely about getting more people riding sport so the field is more representative of guys who want to race for 'sport'

Maybe those guys just don't exist anymore but it's a sad state of affairs

Actually weeksy I hadn't pressed Go yet as Timelaps website is crashed and I wanted to see who was in which category - which are you going for?

I've got a bit of a dilema there really...

If i enter my lad in the U11's, he's off at 8.55am... If i then enter myself in Fun male, i'm off at 9.15am... Silly as this sounds, i'd like to be around just in case and i'm not sure he'd get finished by the 9.15am start.
(I'll take Mrs Weeksy along too for emergencies i imagine, but due to him having quite a 'crashy' XC season, i'd rather race knowing he was back safely)
I'm not really convinced any other catagory than Fun is where i should be putting myself. If anything other than that, it's Open male, but that's nearly 4 hours waiting time for that race...

Mrs Weeksy is back after a few days away tonight, let me see if she's going to go and also chat with my boy to see if he wants to race.. i'm sure he will as he loves Swinley.

I've also emailed the Gorrick guys to get their thoughts as i am slightly worried that some of the XC racing tracks are a bit too tough for him at his age... especially if he's being chased down by a load of grown ups !

Especially when the only people you've seen since the end of the start is the fast riders in your category lapping you.

Doing the Thetford winter series a few years ago, the competition between my mates and me was to see how long you could last without being lapped by Billy Whenman.

You (well I do) go to a race to race, and to better yourself, if you go with an expectation of a placing (whatever that may be) then that's a different thing entirely, especially when it starts to become a reason to NOT go because you think you won't place well.

Understand and to some extent agree with you. The first year or so that I raced I did just compare my finishing position to those of previous races. Then I started to take it more seriously, got myself a coach and a power meter and started putting in some proper training, rather than the odd turbo session or Sunday club ride. A winter of burying myself followed and to some extent it worked. My winter series position when from something mental like 102 to 23rd, then I got a 16th and was over the moon (still got passed by an old bloke in football shorts using clips and straps mind).

It's when you're training as much as you can, spending all your time obsessing over details and making sure you're not sitting near anyone ill, or not having a beer or whatever to then have it handed to you - that's when you start getting a bit pissed off. As people have said, it doesn't pay the bills so its not important, however for me if I'm putting the hours/effort in then I want the results, especially if I'm trying to move up a category. Otherwise I'd just go for a ride round the forest on my own..

Lets have a coffee and laugh at our results once we can brath again after.

Interesting part of the debate- I don't know many people who race XC, and due to its minority nature I don't know how to find others to train with etc apart from at races. There doesn't seem to be the same community as there is with road or even CX to some extent. This forum is pretty active but it's rare to see lots of discussion about racing (apart from the obvious season long thread and this one). Places like XC racer seem pretty dead to be honest.

I'm in Swindon by the way if anyone wants to ride my legs off in the interests of winter training?

An interesting discussion.

I've not done any bike races (of any sort) but used to do fell races, I was pretty consistent: add 50% to the winner's time and a position a third of the way down the field 😳 Fell races are slightly different in that *everyone* (apart from juniors) runs the same race but prizes are given according to age, gender, whim of the organiser. The point is: I knew that unless something went wrong (the good guys didn't turn up; the front of the field took a wrong turning - this did happen once!) then I was always going to be at the front end of the middle of the pack.

When you start racing unless you are particularly gifted then you are going to be spat out of the back regardless of the level you are at. A friend rode in the open race at one of the national crit series and came last. "My first race that I didn't get lapped and told to pull out" was his comment.

Getting numbers up? Open/fun races that have no points on offer and no E/1/2/3/Sport riders allowed. Dunno what the current rules are.

Open/fun races that have no points on offer

They have this, but...

and no E/1/2/3/Sport riders allowed

No way to reliably enforce this...

As far as i can remember, every single time i've moved up a cat i've received a kicking for the first couple of months. Or the first couple of times i've done a type of event. (Stage races, cobbled races etc).

Problem here seems to be that the kicking is too much. Getting shelled out after half distance is one thing. What you see in many MTB XCO events is something else altogether.

I dunno, my last round of MSG was so totally unsuited to me I knew it wouldn't be good, but I saw any league table points as some points worth having, and it being an opportunity to hone racecraft, experience, and of course fitness at race pace.

No way I wouldnt have gone.

I know how to sort this out....

A new race format....

XC race on a saturday followed by a DH race on the Sunday. You have to use the same bike/tyres for both days.

Wasn't that the idea of the singletrack weekender at Lee Quarry? To find the best all rounder on one bike?

OK, Mrs Weeksy is confirmed as having no plans. So i could in theory enter Fun class.

Obviously if you enter Open then that's a 4 hour gap so i doubt we'd end up in the same place at same time... But possibly if you enter Sport as that's in the middle ?

Alwillis, you playing too then ?

@amedias - surely not too hard to look at a list of names/clubs and figure if someone's pulling a fast one? Maybe a points deduction for those caught? Without a reliable base the pyramid of riders moving up and down categories can't sustainably work, the whole system relies on new riders starting to replace those who move on to the vets/masters or simply give up. If you don't attract them then eventually things will die, having riders game the system/sandbagging to get a win isn't in the best interests of the sport.

One of the local CX events always had a fun race with a mandatory shot of tequila every lap!

Wasn't that the idea of the singletrack weekender at Lee Quarry? To find the best all rounder on one bike?

Don`t know, never heard of it.

Kryton57 - Member

I have to chuckle on here about poeple describing XC singletrack courses as "dull".

Either you want to go and try Enduro, or you probably aren;t racing hard enough if the course doesn't become challenging, in the same way Lewis Hamilton driving around Silverstone at 30mph would be "dull", yet at 150mph, less dull. If you're travelling anf paying to coast around the woods and are disgruntled about that, thats your lookout.

TBF, that sounds like a problem- if you need to "race hard" to stop it from being dull then that's offputting to all the weekend warriors that don't want to or can't "race hard". You can race XC endurance or enduro like a total lazy bastard and it's still good. It's OK if the racing's constructed around more serious riders, but it means you can't complain when they're all that turns up... It's something i don't see other offroad sports doing. (enduro especially seems well keyed into the fact that the winners aren't really all that important, it's the 80% of also-rans that mean you can run a race. One organiser told me that if they had to lose a class, it'd be the elites)

Thinking about this a bit last night... The scottish series seems to be doing OK but it's basically invisible. If someone as into the scene as me never hears about it [i]at all[/i]- then where does the new blood come from? I ended up googling it to see if it still exists because for all the promotion and chatter, you'd think it'd ended 5 years ago.Perhaps they have good enough numbers that they don't need to bother? Or perhaps they like their niche the way it is?

It's not even an inclusion thing at this point, people need to know you exist before you can exclude them.

Problem here seems to be that the kicking is too much. Getting shelled out after half distance is one thing. What you see in many MTB XCO events is something else altogether.

Exactly that, it would take an amazing strength of character for a beginner to enter, come last by 20 mins and stick with it through several years with the only motivation being he's coming last by less than he used to.
Sure there's folks out there that can take that, however the vast majority would probably get dispirited and give up after 2-4 outings.

as this site / mag promotes almost zero XC racing

TbF this (or any other magazine for that matter) has never really pushed xc racing. And Singletrack has never really promoted any sort of racing and wass never set itself up to do that.

[quote="trailwagger"]XC race on a saturday followed by a DH race on the Sunday. You have to use the same bike/tyres for both days.Except the time that the fast XC riders on XC bikes would take out of the DH riders on DH bikes (or even trail bikes) on anything that could actually be called an XC course would be measured in quarters of an hour. You could carry your bike down most UK DH courses in not much longer than quarter of an hour. (And the mistake here is thinking that the fast XC riders are slow at DH, they really really aren't)

alwillis - Member
Wasn't that the idea of the singletrack weekender at Lee Quarry? To find the best all rounder on one bike?

mostly, it was cocking around on bikes. it was ace.

Except the time that the fast XC riders on XC bikes would take out of the DH riders on DH bikes (or even trail bikes) on anything that could actually be called an XC course would be measured in quarters of an hour. You could carry your bike down most UK DH courses in not much longer than quarter of an hour. (And the mistake here is thinking that the fast XC riders are slow at DH, they really really aren't)

Agreed, some sort of points based system needs to be devised to level the playing field. I hadnt heard of the Lee Quarry thing before but have googled it now it looks like a giggle to me.

I just thought it would level the playing field in terms of bikes.

Except the time that the fast XC riders on XC bikes would take out of the DH riders on DH bikes (or even trail bikes) on anything that could actually be called an XC course would be measured in quarters of an hour.

The point is that there wouldn't be any DH riders on DH bikes. You'd be an all rounder on an all round bike.

Except the time that the fast XC riders on XC bikes would take out of the DH riders on DH bikes (or even trail bikes) on anything that could actually be called an XC course would be measured in quarters of an hour. You could carry your bike down most UK DH courses in not much longer than quarter of an hour.

nickc - Member
as this site / mag promotes almost zero XC racing
TbF this (or any other magazine for that matter) has never really pushed xc racing. And Singletrack has never really promoted any sort of racing and wass never set itself up to do that.

Sure they used to more, even if it was only race results in the back of mag and product reviews

Simple question, why is cross on the up? and by inference what is MTB doing wrong? Location, advertising, using clubs to do the organizing rather than businesses?

From personal experience roadies want to give each other a kicking even on a "social ride" there is always an element of fitness based competition. MTB rides have very little to do with fitness. So when it comes to racing XC where fitness matters most weekend warriors are no where.

@amedias - surely not too hard to look at a list of names/clubs and figure if someone's pulling a fast one? Maybe a points deduction for those caught?

I think you'd find that a lot harder than it sounds on paper!

The point is that there wouldn't be any DH riders on DH bikes. You'd be an all rounder on an all round bike.

Unless you do it on points.

[quote="mrmo"]Simple question, why is cross on the up?
CX is good as the fields are big and inclusive, you've always got someone to race against, week in week out, short laps, small venue, it's cheap (both kit and entry fees) you can race multiple classes (two kids, mum, dad) on the same day if you want, and watch the elites. Or race against them. It's also always been an end of season party sport. As can be seen in Belgium. They've not quite cracked it in the UK, but it's still better than much of the XC scene.

Simple question, why is cross on the up? and by inference what is MTB doing wrong?

Simple question but great question. Cross has exploded in recent years, despite attracting pretty much zero funding from BC as it isn't an olympic discipline.

IMO there are a number of reasons - it's relatively cheap to enter, you don't need an amazing bike, the laps are short so the field isn't as spread out from the start, course layouts usually have the spectator in mind as well as the riders, it's club-based so logistically easier to put races on, the slower average speeds make it photogenic, the serious road and XC racers at the front are traditionally on their off season so it's a bit more relaxed, the risk of injury is much lower than XC, it has a vaguely hipster image, the cold weather and sheer ridiculousness of it engenders a more social atmosphere and most crucially the numbers are growing. Once this has started, it's easier to maintain and capitalise on.

It's also the best racing discipline to provide coaching for children - CX is not a technical coaching environment and pretty much any bike a child has will do - which brings them and, just as importantly, their parents to races. This is key. The parents see other parents racing and think "I could do that", and so they do, keeping their kids racing and boosting the numbers further up the age ladder.

XC is a different discipline, but I think there are things it could take from CX to try and boost numbers, particularly the shorter laps and spectator friendliness of courses. However the issue with that is it only takes account of this country - the sport has to try and ensure that the top riders are racing on courses of a technical level not too far off what they'd face when they go abroad. The Swiss are already a million miles ahead of us, difficult to see how measures like these wouldn't detract from the top end of things.

I also think the XC category system is nuts - you should be able to race up if you want to (ie enter a faster race) but no way should you be able to race down. I can't comprehend how the people who do so aren't embarrassed by doing it. For men, CX has a single open category after junior, with age categories from V40 onwards. If you're a vet, you can race 'up' and enter the senior race, but not 'down' to an older category. Simpler.

What that doesn't give you though is the ability to reward mid-pack plodders, but neither it should! This idea that you are entitled to come away from a race feeling rewarded even though you're mediocre (despite what Strava or your mates might say) is surely against the very essence of bike racing - it's a hard sport where you have to be honest with yourself, and if you want to be rewarded you have to actually do well. Going out and bursting yourself for zero reward beyond your own endorphin levels is what it's all about, or am I missing the point of bike racing altogether?

How about a format where you find the heaviest bike and rider combination, and then add weight to all the other bikes to make it the same weight in an attempt to equalize w/kg...could be interesting.

That or making everyone ride the same bike so it is less about the kit and all about the legs.

I've not tried CX, but intend to, the main appeal for me is it is about 5 miles from home so easily accessible and cheap.

The best event I've been to is Brighton Big Dog and that seems well attended.

Going out and bursting yourself for zero reward beyond your own endorphin levels is what it's all about

much more succinctly put than my own ramblings 🙂

I have a theory that an easier course would lead to more fun racing. I wonder if we could propose an experiment.

Someone plan a 'course' of wide open racing with little singletrack but lots of open fire-road and wide tracks, somewhere where it's not busy. Then we could all turn up and have a mock race, and see how it goes?

[quote=molgrips ]I have a theory that an easier course would lead to more fun racing. I wonder if we could propose an experiment.
Someone plan a 'course' of wide open racing with little singletrack but lots of open fire-road and wide tracks, somewhere where it's not busy. Then we could all turn up and have a mock race, and see how it goes?

why bother with the dirt and do it on tarmac?

XC is a different discipline, but I think there are things it could take from CX to try and boost numbers, particularly the shorter laps and spectator friendliness of courses. However the issue with that is it only takes account of this country - the sport has to try and ensure that the top riders are racing on courses of a technical level not too far off what they'd face when they go abroad. The Swiss are already a million miles ahead of us, difficult to see how measures like these wouldn't detract from the top end of things.

But isn't that solved in part by using the race series properly, National races difficult, regional moderate, and local races friendly?

Thinking about it though one issue, i guess is who organizing the races and who is paying the bills. A local club relying on good will, or someone with wages to pay.

What that doesn't give you though is the ability to reward mid-pack plodders, but neither it should! This idea that you are entitled to come away from a race feeling rewarded even though you're mediocre (despite what Strava or your mates might say) is surely against the very essence of bike racing - it's a hard sport where you have to be honest with yourself, and if you want to be rewarded you have to actually do well. Going out and bursting yourself for zero reward beyond your own endorphin levels is what it's all about, or am I missing the point of bike racing altogether?

The entire problem is there are no mid pack plodders.
Think of it like this:
Take everyone in the UK that rides bikes and randomly put them into groups of 10 people.
Then take the fittest person from each group (10%).
So we now have a pretty big group of really quite fit cyclists.
From that group, drop the bottom half of it into a Sport Category (supposed to be entry level) XC race in the UK, and they'd be fighting it out for last place.
When you find yourself in the situation that entry level is out of reach for 90% of the bike riding population, its pretty clear its a problem with the system and not the people.

why bother with the dirt and do it on tarmac?

It'd still be quite different to tarmac.

IMO there are a number of reasons - it's relatively cheap to enter, you don't need an amazing bike, the laps are short so the field isn't as spread out from the start, course layouts usually have the spectator in mind as well as the riders, it's club-based so logistically easier to put races on, the slower average speeds make it photogenic, the serious road and XC racers at the front are traditionally on their off season so it's a bit more relaxed, the risk of injury is much lower than XC, it has a vaguely hipster image, the cold weather and sheer ridiculousness of it engenders a more social atmosphere and most crucially the numbers are growing. Once this has started, it's easier to maintain and capitalise on.

Pretty much nails it IMHO..

It's interesting but the 1st ever mtb race I did was in a park and would now never be called mtb race, as at best it was more like a cx course. Then thinking about mtbing in the late 80's to mid 90's when it was at its peak in the UK, and it had a lot of elements that CX does now. Affordable bikes, good atmosphere, cheap to enter and accessible to all. Somewhere along the way XC mtbing lost that, I'm not sure how or why, but it did.

But it's not only CX on the up, but also things like Tough Mudder events, Parkrun, triathlons and 10k runs. Somehow mtbing needs to allow everyone to challenge themselves and have a good time, not just the fastest. I think the Gorricks do that well, hence, their continued success as the rest of XC falls. Likewise Enduro has that vibe at presetn, although I expect that will disappear as it all becomes more serious.

Unless you are a genuine podium contender then as someone mentioned above you are basically racing against those of similar ability around you or aiming to better a previous result. CX races tend to be in parks and the like and are a fairly compact course so there's lots of bends, off-camber stuff etc.

Our club help organise a CX event and it's well attended and lots of spectators, cowbells on hand, beer tent. Very sociable.

It'd still be quite different to tarmac.

Oh, you mean like a cX race? 😉

Less mud.

Somewhere along the way XC mtbing lost that, I'm not sure how or why, but it did.

MTBers like a laugh and a bike ride. That started off as XC because it was there. Then it became 24hr because it was dafter, and then Enduro because it was more fun.

Back then we didn't have a choice - now we do, and people have made that choice. Leaving only die-hards behind.

why is cross on the up?

For me it's appeal is I can line up in the same group as Liam Killeen, get a thorough thrashing, not be alone on the course, be lapped multiple times & no one really noticies I've come last. Hopefully UK CX will get more wacky like the US races and we'll all race in thongs and ride through beer showers whilst being heckled by monks.

I like racing XC 'cos I get to rag round like a loon blowing out my derriere in a way I never could if I went out on my own.

It's an organised course, there's martials to pick you up if you have a prang & need help, there's other folks to challenge yourself against.

Yes it's hard & yes I've never won.......but I keep coming back for more!

I have a theory that an easier course would lead to more fun racing. I wonder if we could propose an experiment.

Someone plan a 'course' of wide open racing with little singletrack but lots of open fire-road and wide tracks

I suspect this would lead to a dull race as the riders would quickly get strung out according to fitness.

The best courses I've raced have had a good combination of singletrack, fire road/grassy bits and the odd technical section - so fitness, skill and strategy all come into it.

I like racing XC 'cos I get to rag round like a loon blowing out my derriere in a way I never could if I went out on my own.

+1

Definitely doing more next year, missed it this year after selling my hardtail.