[Closed] XC numbers down?

At a guess anywhere else that doesn't require you to be super fit to not be dropped in the first minute in the 'entry level' sport class.

Oh, and did i forget to mention driving 2-4hrs to get to said event to get dropped and ride 90mins solo?

When a reigning national champ can't get sorted with sponsorship for the next season, it kinda says just how unimportant/irrelevant/out of date the race format is.

Sad really, but that's what's happened!

Well, you say its irrelevant and out of date, but RBTV still devote more airtime to it than DH, and don't do any TV coverage of Enduro at all (for obvious reasons).

Massive barrier to entry, poor availability of races and no magazine coverage = incredibly hard to attract and retain new blood.

Everyones now riding CX..

Where is everyone going?

Enduro, CX.

****, em - it makes my results look better.

It's endurance rather than XCO but the Glentress Seven went on sale tonight, I'll give you five scottish pence if it doesn't sell out

Massive barrier to entry, poor availability of races and no magazine coverage = incredibly hard to attract and retain new blood.

Personally

At a guess anywhere else that doesn't require you to be super fit to not be dropped in the first minute in the 'entry level' sport class.

Oh, and did i forget to mention driving 2-4hrs to get to said event to get dropped and ride 90mins solo?

Race structure is more important, had a few first time Enduroists racing Enduro yesterday, all of them loved it, race wasn't over after the first climb, social, friendly and fun.

The traditional XC race is a tough one but breaking the cats down a bit, having proper fun ones and etc. might help.

For me multi day/stage racing is much more fun, more demanding and a lot more rewarding.

Been puzzling this since I got back into xc racing a few years ago.

I blame the media in making xc uncool to a large extent. And I guess the rise in popularity of road riding/racing.

It's a downwards spiral, quite often no-one racing fun in Welsh series so if a newcomer turns up they'll be racing on their own, not exactly fun and unlikely to do it again.

Agree re. Sports cat, I'm not horribly unfit and still have to train very hard to end up not totally last. But it is the stepping stone to elite for fast juniors, maybe more should be pushed to expert

I'm certainly enjoying cx more now, less dangerous and bigger fields mean a better race experiance.

I noticed that the first XC Rampage was RAMMED with people, but the meetings after that were dead.. i don't know how many turned up this weekend because we left straight after the 8's race, but there were only 4-5 vehicles i saw, which considering for race 1 we saw about 30... was quite surprising.

Looking at the XC Rampage results, it seems my thoughts were correct, a LOT of people raced only round 1.

The local CX racing has been rammed each and every weekend.

Not sure XC is dying at all..

Been racing for years & the events (Gorrick mostly) always seem to have a good turn out..

Though I'll agree I don't think there is much coverage of XC racing, particularly in ST..

@mike

The barrier to entry is that sport cat is broken to the point of being intimidating. Round here, guys winning sport cat are nearing 5W/kg ftp and need near 4W/kg not to come last.

Given that most fit recreational ridersvare more likely to be in the 3-3.6W/kg range and not so fit/beginners at 2.5-3W/kg, there is literally nothing for them.

Add to that our national Scottish series only has 6 races, and pretty much nothing in terms of regional races.

Whilst in theory yes you are right, you can just turn up and race, in reality its a difficult and demoralising exercise to do so.

Numbers have dipped from the glory days of the mid/late 90's. Used to see around 60-70 riders in sport, 40+ experts and maybe 30+ Elites for a regional series round. Probably between 50 and 75% of each field were going to get completely destroyed on the first lap and half of those should have been pulled out on the second. Last Regional i went to in the UK was only 10 or 12 elites and they started them with the less than 20 experts. Sport was about 35 or 40. That was 08 or 09. There are exceptions. I've seen the pictures of some of the better organised events with more riders (Gorricks as mentioned up there)

So they go to enduro and marathon, or CX. Where you can ride your own event and "achieve" something. Even if it's just a finishing time. Or a race with someone of similar ability.

Probably tied into the "4 minute mile with a bit of training" mentality. People go out for a ride with a mid pack XC rider, beat them on a couple of bits and think that this XC stuff must be easy, you see that in posts on here, people claiming to be "dead fast, i pass loads of people on x,y,z trailcenter", it's not racing, you probably aren't actually that fast. XC will hurt and you'll probably get dropped. You get the same thing on the road too.

How far do you drop the entry level?

Do you have to start doing middle marker events (Like in TTs)? Or have a completely new points/promotion rulebook (like on the road). So a good rider might do round one of a series as sport, round 2 as expert and finish off as an elite.........

Meh, i'm too old to care.

I used to race occasionally as a teenager and it was brilliant fun, thought I'd have another swing at it a few years ago (20 yrs later) - entered at the entry level and started at the back with 2 other first time racers, I was surprised what a comprehensive & immediate smashing we got. Within 2 minutes we were riding alone, after lap 2 we got ridiculed by a couple of spectators for being so far behind. Thoroughly shit experience, won't bother again.

It's impressive what the level of fitness is, even at the entry level, but it's also a massive hurdle to getting back in racing.

So people think it's easier than it is, and the top end of entry level is too fast.

Time to start promoting the sandbaggers.

ghostlymachine - Member

So people think it's easier than it is, and the top end of entry level is too fast.

Time to start promoting the sandbaggers.

As he stated, it's not just the top end that is too high, the bottom end is too high. When i've done XC Racing in the past i was arguably quicker/fitter than i am now... but i struggled to get out of the last 10 riders out of 50. With that i ended up having mostly quite a lonely race, so was it really a race ? Well, i got a finishing position so it was a race.. but i mostly rode alone after the first 4-5 mins as i had a few riders behind me, but the riders in front had pulled away and gapped me.
I class myself as half reasonably fit at the moment, but i bet if i went to the next Gorrick and entered anything other than Fun, i'd end up in the bottom couple.

XC racing seems more like CX racing to me in some ways, all fully Lycra'd up with short travel lightweigh carbon bikes... It wasn't what i expected at all... I expected baggies and run what you brung type stuff, but i got Nino Schurter and his mates.

I accidently entered a sport as I thought I was better than 'average' aka faster than everyone I meet at trail centres. I came last by a looooonnnng way. I had guys passing me on the fire roads in tt position when I was clocking 20mph.... It was pretty demoralising tbh. I prefer the open class events like the gorrick 4hr where you'll never win but it is a great challenge.

Problem for me is entry is now £20+ races are generally lunch time plus travel time means a day away from the family. These days I'd rather get up super early get to cwmcarn and be back for teatime. I can use strava to race myself and my mates.

I really liked the idea of the fox hunt enduro. You could do that with xc. Start the pack off 30mins ahead of the elite rides who all have bells. See if you can stay ahead of them, plus make them work for it, no 'elite rider coming through politeness'

Having raced a couple of Southern XC races here's an observation.

There are some seriously fast people out there! It's quite off putting somehow and unless your serious your never going to do well

People who should race Sport at least seem to enter in Open so they can compete

Nobody enters beginner so Open is a vast range.

It's not very social, it's very serious....

I've enjoyed the challenge but I never feel like I have to go to the next one.. So end up only doing a couple if I have a spare afternoon and it's near enough.

XC racing seems more like CX racing to me in some ways, all fully Lycra'd up with short travel lightweigh carbon bikes... It wasn't what i expected at all... I expected baggies and run what you brung type stuff, but i got Nino Schurter and his mates.

Even then the fast guys were fast in every class.

People say 'courses are too easy', so they make them more technical, then people who actually make up the numbers (fun and open riders) don't race because it's too hard.

I accept that World Cup courses are getting tougher, but I don't enjoy it. I've not done any XCO this year. First time since 1999 when I was 13. Bought a licence, just didn't fancy it. I did 4 or so races last year, came in the last 25% in all of them.

Gorricks are always well attended, they're not tough courses, and they appeal to the average riders. The expert class has always been tiny

Theres NOTHING round here, youd have to travel 2-3 hours and this is the Lakes. Used to race a few 24s 12 and did alright but travelling miles to get my arse handed to me doesnt appeal. Thinking about setting up some offroad TTs using strava with a couple of local road clubs. Keep it accessible and fun and people will give it a punt.

For some reason the media in the UK gave up on XC about 15 years ago and that's it. It's a very different story on the continent where it still seems popular.

Also I do second the point about sandbaggers, the BC have never got a grip on that. When you've got 2nd Cat road riders racing Sport, then your average weekend warrior mtber is going to have a grim time.

XC racing seems more like CX racing to me in some ways, all fully Lycra'd up with short travel lightweigh carbon bikes... It wasn't what i expected at all... I expected baggies and run what you brung type stuff, but i got Nino Schurter and his mates.

Been that way for a LONG time, though I agree it should be less of this:

Also I do second the point about sandbaggers, the BC have never got a grip on that. When you've got 2nd Cat road riders racing Sport, then your average weekend warrior mtber is going to have a grim time.

👿 👿 👿

t's not very social, it's very serious....

Yep, trying to get a laugh out of some of the folks at these events is like trying got get blood out of a stone.....lighten up FFS..

More mountain bikers are road riding to train.

So yeah, coming back to the thread an hour later and most people's experiences seem to be saying the same thing.

A) Need to be getting the properly fast guys (the ones who are basically doing elite lap times) out of sport cat as a priority. This then free's up sport cat for 'normal' fit riders.

B) Need probably two lower categories to be populated by weekend warrior types and beginners.

C) Need some sort of advertising campaign in combination with the above to draw people to come and give it a try.

[i]Edit[/i] To be fair to the 'sandbaggers', in some areas of the country, its sufficiently hard to get to races and they are so few and far between that no matter how fit you are scoring enough points to be promoted may not be guaranteed. System is flawed as much as riders taking advantage of it

[quote="mrlebowski"]Yep, trying to get a laugh out of some of the folks at these events is like trying got get blood out of a stone.....lighten up FFS..Maybe it's just you (And tiger6791). I've always had a bit of a laugh and a joke at XC events.

And i'm even a roadie1!!!!1!!!!!

Need probably two lower categories to be populated by weekend warrior types and beginners.

Dunno about Scotchland, but we have Beginner/Fun/Open/Sport/Expert/Elite. Gorrick races have a combined expert/elite, southern and nationals don't have beginner, but there are plenty of categories. Few sport riders are literally doing the same times as the elites even if they are their races are half the distance.

I've never found it overly serious though, definitely have a laugh. Even the top guys are pretty chilled.

Beginner/Fun/Open/Sport/Expert/Elite

That would be perfect.

We have Novice/Sport/Expert/Elite, however the Novice race is only 2 laps, so ~40mins tops for anyone even moderately fit, and the 'Sport' race is a second Expert race but 1 lap less.

So yeah, given the 3 options of:
drive 3hrs for a 40min event in a field of 3 riders.
drive 3hrs to get dropped in the first 3 mins of a 90 min event
stay home and do something fun

guess which most folk choose?!

I think the size of the field at selkirk marathon, GT7 and 10UTB says there is plenty of appetite for XC type riding, but a key part of any sport is to feel like you are competing against someone at a similar level.

😀 Last time i raced seriously in the uk it was sport/expert/elite. So you've gained two category.

(BC gave me a 2nd/sport licence back then, despite me having held either a Belgian, Dutch or French elite licence of some description for best part of the previous 15 years. It was an improvement on the 3rd/sport licence they originally sent me.)

Only done one 'proper' XC race - part of the FNSS earlier this year - so some beginner opinions...

Numbers seemed pretty good across all the categories. I think the FNSS is one that maintains its popularity though.

The race I did had age categories at my end of the field so I wasn't doomed to plumb last from the off.

Personally for me, the 1 hour plus 1 lap seemed too short. By the time I'd settled in to a rhythm and was catching the odd rider again it was all over. Appreciate this is more me than the event though.

Clearly a lot of the riders were road training or were predominately road riders. The course was very non-technical but there was one twisty, tight wooded section. I was getting left for dead on the open flat bits but was getting held up every lap on the but that required some actual riding skills (and I'm decidedly average).

Lots of steep, light, plastic bikes at the pointy end but quite a few run wot you brung riders at my end of things. I think I was the only one on a 31lb 160mm enduro tank though.

I suffered, but I actually quite enjoyed it. Would have done more this year if dates had worked out. Will definitely try to do 3 or 4 rounds next year. Might even take a suitable bike and do some training...

If I were to design an XC event for riders like me, it would be...

At least a couple of hours long.
A proper mix of technical and 'speed' trails (might even be cool to have one or two separately timed technical sections - like a mini enduro within the XC event).
I guess what I'm imagining is a kind of XC/Enduro hybrid in terms of the style of riding and bike required. The quick guys around still be quick, but it might be a slight leveler further down the field?

I'm interested to read the comments above, as I was worried I'd come away from my first real experience of XCO with an unfairly bad opinion.

(Minor bit of background: I've raced 12/24 hr stuff solo, pairs and teams for years, as well as doing loads of enduro stuff and made the numbers up in Vets cat in the SDA DH series for four years or so. I'm now coaching kids at a local club, so was keen to see about getting more of them into XC racing)

Maybe I was unlucky, but the round I raced (in Scotland) was a long drive, a fair expense, but ultimately a lonely ride around some muddy woods for an hour or so. There was nobody out spectating around the course, so zero atmosphere, and zero banter on the start line, or even when riding with someone else.

By comparison, I've done two CX races for the very first time this year, and really, really enjoyed it. Great atmosphere, very friendly and actually felt like I was 'racing' against my peers, rather than just getting my arse handed to me on a plate.

I don't race, I doorstep ride, I watch a little of the UCI XCO on TV if I remember to. I flagged up a potential XCO / UK team article for STW to Chipps a while back as a friend's involved and I think it has a real grass roots from nothing to the Olympics story about it, here's his reply:

Thanks for the pitch...

It is a good story - though in terms of general interest in XCO, I reckon that it's still very far from most people's minds. The OMX Team has fewer than 2000 followers on Twitter, despite having a national champion on its team and its video of the National Champs has 60 or so views at the moment -

So, I think that in terms of general mountain biking, there really isn't currently that much interest in XC racing... It would be good to feature it some time though - although at the moment, the time's not right as everyone's off to the Olympics so it might have to wait until the Autumn. I do have an in-depth feature on British Cycling (and its lack, or not, of interest in mountain biking...) planned for the autumn, so it might work along with, or as part of, that...

Sorry I missed Hadleigh, it sounded a good weekend. I was on holiday instead...

Cheers
Chipps

I understand his reply, but I feel it shows the mags current direction. Shame as I always thought of them as championing the underdog & uninfluenced too much by the mainstream in a Dirt Rag kind of way. Chipps, if I bump into you I may bend your ear a little more on the subject 😉

Also I do second the point about sandbaggers, the BC have never got a grip on that. When you've got 2nd Cat road riders racing Sport, then your average weekend warrior mtber is going to have a grim time.

This is a huge barrier to entry for some people.
A couple of mates of mine fancied trying some XC races but were put off by seeing the speed of some people who entered the open and even beginners categories.
One race local to me has, for the past couple of years, had people entering the beginners/fun category who've been racing in sport or expert during the season in the National XC series which doesn't look good to any beginners. Similarly the Southern XC has, for the past couple of seasons, had people riding open who have dropped down from Vet's, Sport and Expert categories often with the excuse of "not having ridden much lately" then they go on to put a minute a lap into the rest of the field.
It puts off new riders who believe they will only come DFL and also puts off current riders who realise that there's no point in racing the season as they'll never compete against the sandbaggers.

Having looked at the results for the Banjo Rampage series, it did look to be an exceptionally poor showing this year. I did notice that Banjo have also pulled the plug on their night race series which used to be fairly poplar from what I remember.
It's a shame that the number of events is dropping but I can't see how it's viable to continue with the events when entry numbers are so low.

I'm not a competitive type, so have never really considered XC racing, but what Andy says above put me off right away. 3-4 Hours in the car for 90 minutes of riding.

Feel the same about CX, though I did enter a couple of CX races way back...

Enduro gets knocked by some, rightly or wrongly, I care not a jot, but I can ride (and talk shite/procrastinate/etc) with my mates for 5 hours, have a right load of fun, but still get a wee focus on and 'race' for a bit too.

I think that format suits most people who don't either have the time, inclination or motivation to train properly.

Clearly a lot of the riders were road training or were predominately road riders. The course was very non-technical but there was one twisty, tight wooded section. I was getting left for dead on the open flat bits but was getting held up every lap on the but that required some actual riding skills (and I'm decidedly average).

In my limited experience of XC racing, this was the case for me too.

I fancied giving it a whiz one winter, because I thought it might be better than the turbo when training a bit for DH & Enduro.

Firstly, I was wrong. My opinion was tainted though, I did 2 & had 2 mechanicals. Largely regardless though, the loop was tame, with probably 2/3 of it being fire road & the rest being dull singletrack.

I've never bothered, nor plan to since. Dull.

I raced the Southern Series in 2014, was chuffed to finish 5th overall in the category and got to know a bunch of really nice chaps whilst doing it. I have to say that bar one or two overly serious lads the atmosphere was relaxed and I felt there's abit of a community.

I will say that the chaps who finished around my series position probably should have moved up a category but 2 seasons on they're still racing the same. It comes down down to personal choice I suppose and theres a nice feel of a group of mates wznting to race each other but for the pure accesibility of the sport and for giving others a chance they probably should move up a category by now - the same names were in the mix for the 2016 series.

I didn't race xc in 2015 as I was doing a charity annual mileage challenge and the racing weekends didn't fit with this. I raced one Southern XC this year, crashed into a tree and creaked to the finishline in 9th with only one arm properly working. Have spent the rezt of the year just out enjoying my riding 3-5 times a week.

In my mind there is a big current shift over to CX racing. This might be to the detriment to XC racing in the short term as I recognise a whole host of XC names in the Central CX and Wessex CX leagues. However, people like new challenges and I'm sure a good proportion of riders will return back to XC in a season or two or just end up doing both.

[quote="colournoise"]I was getting left for dead on the open flat bits but was getting held up every lap on the but that required some actual riding skills (and I'm decidedly average).Not to be rude, but i suspect that was because you were in with the "less able" riders at the back/middle of the field. The fastest riders (both on the flat open bits and the techy bits, and the climbs, and the decents) will mostly be really really fast. On everything.

One race local to me has, for the past couple of years, had people entering the beginners/fun category who've been racing in sport or expert during the season in the National XC series which doesn't look good to any beginners.

Who, out of interest? I can't imagine anyone with an expert licence racing fun. Speaking as someone with an expert licence.

probably should have moved up a category

ghostlymachine - Member
colournoise » I was getting left for dead on the open flat bits but was getting held up every lap on the but that required some actual riding skills (and I'm decidedly average).
Not to be rude, but i suspect that was because you were in with the "less able" riders at the back/middle of the field. The fastest riders (both on the flat open bits and the techy bits, and the climbs, and the decents) will mostly be really really fast. On everything.

That's BC look out. The current category promotion rules are terrible. They were 15 years ago. I don't think they've changed much.

Yeah, no different now, you have to be top 15 in Sport to go to expert, which isn't necessarily that hard if you do the right races, but it means a lot of quick people stay in sport.

I'm not really sure how you fix it though, what's the better way to do it? If people do the odd race here and there they'll never achieve the points to move up, so how do you ensure that people are in the 'right' category?

Xc and cx should be very complimentary, xc season ends early Aug gives you time to chill then focus on high end speed and cx skills before the end of sept. I basically saw my xc season as a perfect base for cx. More of the guys in Welsh league focus on road in summer. I don't think popularity of cx is a detractor from xc, if anything it should be an attractor as a stepping stone to off-road riding for roadies.

I think you can still have a laugh around xc races, even the nationals. People are friendly even if wearing Lycra! Actually sport in the national events is better than sport in my region as more people racing not just the fast guy so a bigger spread of ability and closer racing. Plus you normally end up racing the fast guys in open as well so get a good race. I don't care where I come in a race but I do want a good race. Last round of the Welsh there were 5 of us in sport, I crashed on the first lap and time trialled for the rest of the race as couldn't catch up. Shame as it was a great course.

Southern xc and Gorrick seem well attended but the population is so much bigger near London so always going to be enough keen people. However if you look at fields for juniors there is 20 entrants when there used to be 70+ when I was racing youth/junior there in mid-late nineties, so there could be more even in those races.

Re. The categories, get more people interested and racing and the categories will sort themselves out as more slower people will be racing back end of sport by default. In Wales we don't have an open, just fun or sport. Think that works well. As soon as you'I've won a fun race you should be banned from fun and go up to sport

However if you look at fields for juniors there is 20 entrants when there used to be 70+ when I was racing youth/junior in mid-late nineties, so there could be more even in those races.

Whilst I was a junior in 2003/4, Gorrick did away with their junior category as no one was racing it. Nationals never had more than 20, and I did at least two races with fewer than 4 entrants

I'm not really sure how you fix it though, what's the better way to do it? If people do the odd race here and there they'll never achieve the points to move up, so how do you ensure that people are in the 'right' category?

More official BC points scoring categories, and less points to move up. 1 win or 2 podiums are enough to move you up a category [u]immediately[/u], other riders promoted as they accumulate enough to cross threshold. Points scored in lower classes stay on license for 18 months before expiring.
Bottom 10% of riders in each category whose points in lower categories have expired get their licenses relegated.

Ensures that low categories get depopulated of fast riders quickly - gives newly promoted riders a safety net period to prevent category yoyoing - lowers riders that can't cope back to a more suitable level within a reasonable time frame.

But that excludes riders from a series position in a year they move up. Or do they carry their points into the new category? If you promote anyone who gets on the sport podium don't you just fill expert with chaff then? Where do you say "ok, that's enough, you're ok in Sport". When you've got 200 riders in expert and 3 in sport?

What about non ranked series? Gorrick aren't (and never will be) BC sanctioned.

That sounds far worse than what we have frankly.

You mean like they have on the road (sort of)

But the road is less series based, the series there are are often 12+ races, not 5, you've got far bigger categories categories race together.

So yes, automatic promotion would possibly work if you made the category sport/expert. But that makes it an utterly pointless exercise.

I have to chuckle on here about poeple describing XC singletrack courses as "dull".

Either you want to go and try Enduro, or you probably aren;t racing hard enough if the course doesn't become challenging, in the same way Lewis Hamilton driving around Silverstone at 30mph would be "dull", yet at 150mph, less dull. If you're travelling anf paying to coast around the woods and are disgruntled about that, thats your lookout.

In the meantime, there is a technical level - ever moving - where throwing a 100mm carbon hardtail down a section become ridiculously dangerous at regional level anyway. Courses need a balance, whereby at a decent speed they are a challenge from a technical and fitness perspective, yet from a Beginner perspective at a slower pace aren't bloody dangerous.

But that excludes riders from a series position in a year they move up. Or do they carry their points into the new category?

TBH, series rankings are the least of our worries atm. If you have a 5 category system and don't move people up immediately, you have fast folk ruining the experience in lower categories for 3 years while they move up

If you promote anyone who gets on the sport podium don't you just fill expert with chaff then? Where do you say "ok, that's enough, you're ok in Sport". When you've got 200 riders in expert and 3 in sport?

Valid point, and it does need a critical mass of riders where the 10% getting relegated each year evens out the new promotions. Bear in mind that in a 5 category system, sport itself would not be filled with 'chaff', more like fit folks with ~3.5-4W/kg ftp's and comparable bike handling skills.

Bottom line, nearly everyone in the thread has said the current entry level is so far from entry level that its un-fun and borderline intimidating, and if to correct that we need to overfill the expert class for a few years then so be it.

Re dull courses - if they are too technical you can't pass easily and all you are doing is slogging your guts out. Personally I think courses should be on the easier side so you can properly race - ie sit back, time your attacks and have to defend etc. Obviously not too easy - not all fire-road - but not all twisty singletrack either.

If you want to be rated more on your technical skills that's exactly what Enduro is for.

Bottom line, nearly everyone in the thread has said the current entry level is so far from entry level that its un-fun and borderline intimidating, and if to correct that we need to overfill the expert class for a few years then so be it.

I'm not saying that at all. I think the courses getting more technical is a bigger barrier actually.

Timelaps appears to be down at the moment, but I was going to have a look at the variety of speeds for National/Regional/local races, prepared to wager it'll be a big variety.

[quote="njee20"]So yes, automatic promotion would possibly work if you made the category sport/expert. But that makes it an utterly pointless exercise.

I know, that was the last argument i heard for the current system. Series standings would be meaningless as the winner of each round would simply get bumped up a category and no longer be eligible. So the "series" winner would simply be the 6th fastest rider in the 6 round series.

Makes sense, but allows people to stay in the lower categories.

IMHO the Gorrick races that I do have a fair degree of technicality - maybe from the fact that the hammer is down making the stuff harder?

Personally most XC I've done is pretty much bang on the money in terms of technicality. In fact the higher up the pay grade you go the more technical the courses become in my experience..

molgrips - Member

Re dull courses - if they are too technical you can't pass easily and all you are doing is slogging your guts out. Personally I think courses should be on the easier side so you can properly race - ie sit back, time your attacks and have to defend etc. Obviously not too easy - not all fire-road - but not all twisty singletrack either.

If you want to be rated more on your technical skills that's exactly what Enduro is for.

this and...

njee20 - Member

I'm not saying that at all. I think the courses getting more technical is a bigger barrier actually.

this

I don't personally have access to any kind of figures or anything but I don't think numbers have been down at races this season at all. I've raced nationals, southerns, easterns and some of the team events and I'd say it's all very dependant on the course, the weather and the time of year.

The OP mentioned TIYS and the Rampage series in particular which I agree have been down on previous years. With the Rampage series in particular, it comes at the end of a very long and expensive season to be honest. It coincides with a lot of CX racing as well as other races (I know there was a Gorrick race on at the same time as one of the Rampage races) and lots of riders having their own 'downtime'

I do agree that XC racing probably isn't quite as inclusive as it should be though. It can be extremely intimidating for an inexperienced racer to turn up and see lots of shaved, oiled legs, team sponsored kit and people everywhere on turbos and rollers etc. Organisers like Mud Sweat and Gears and the Southern XC team are doing an amazing job at trying to make races more accesible and ridable while keeping them technical and interesting enough for the high end riders to race.

Lets not moan about XC racing...lets encourage people to come and give it a go!!!! 😀

From the Gorrick racing i've done the techincal aspect is about right... I'm going throuh a debate currently about my 8 year old racing Gorrick as i feel it may be a bit much for him.

It's the legs and HR that have been my biggest problem. !

Even on Zwift a lot at the moment i've just got my FTP to 280W, which has been hard... With my weight being not a million miles from 100kg, that's putting me at about 2.8W/Kg.... I can't fathom how i'm going to get over 3.0W/kg, let alone some of the 3.5 and 4.0's mentioned above... that's proper crazy !

I'm not saying that at all. I think the courses getting more technical is a bigger barrier actually.

The elite race had one guy clearing it. Whipped.
Most of the other elites (80% +) rode it with barely even a break in pace.

And that's the usual argument - Gorricks are the least technical XC race series, but they get big entry numbers and entrants think they're pitched about right. Southerns are more technical, nationals even more so, and people are undoubtedly put off by the courses. It's not necessarily a bad thing, there should be promotion, but basically more people are put off racing on technical courses than are encouraged to do so because courses are technical.

The elite race had one guy clearing it. Whipped.
Most of the other elites (80% +) rode it with barely even a break in pace.

Absolutely, but you don't encourage people in at elite level, we're talking barriers to entry, and courses where you have to walk the 'fun bits' are a big barrier.

Even on Zwift a lot at the moment i've just got my FTP to 280W, which has been hard... With my weight being not a million miles from 100kg, that's putting me at about 2.8W/Kg.... I can't fathom how i'm going to get over 3.0W/kg, let alone some of the 3.5 and 4.0's mentioned above... that's proper crazy !

As far as i can remember, without digging through paperwork again, i had about 330-340W at threshold, but in my entire racing career i doubt i ever topped 70 kilos. More likely 65 (except in the deepest darkness of winter). And i'm not a huge chunk off 6 foot.

Take a look at this for a bit of an example what I mean:
[url= http://www.sxc.org.uk/forfar-2016 ]http://www.sxc.org.uk/forfar-2016[/url]

Turnout is so low that field will immediately be spread and the feel of 'racing' is gone.
And the top 3 guys in sport are only lapping 90s off Rob Friel, and would have been battling for 5th in elite/expert.

It's mostly about losing weight. Unless you are about 10 foot tall a lot of that weight is "waste", as in no use for cycling XC type events. Even if it's solid muscle.

As far as i can remember, without digging through paperwork again, i had about 330-340W at threshold, but in my entire racing career i doubt i ever topped 70 kilos. More likely 65 (except in the deepest darkness of winter). And i'm not a huge chunk off 6 foot.

Dont get me wrong, i have no problems knowing where my issues lie and where i will get quicker... Wanting it, seeing it and doing it are all different things 🙂

I've been a 'big' lad for a long time and don't have the dedication at 45 to get down to a decent racing weight... If i can get say down to 90kg i'll be more than happy.... i've dropped 3kg in the past month from increased Zwifting, local XC riding and a bit of 5-2 fasting... so i'm on the right road.. but it's tough.

Maybe it's just the end of season events that have been a bit down.

I just hope Banjo can keep on running Rampage. Seems the epitome of grass roots sport. The racing is competitive, friendly and to a very high standard 😉

Turnout is so low that field will immediately be spread and the feel of 'racing' is gone.

Which is, in part, a function of population density. There just aren't many people up there. Whenever the national series has gone to Scotland the numbers are down. When it doesn't, the Scots moan that it doesn't go to Scotland. There's a point where geography is just to blame in part.

I did my last race a few years ago now, entered fun and sat nervously waiting by my car watching the the pros warm up on rollers and turbos, the bloke next to me in car park even had his coach timing his warm up...imagine my surprise when he lined up next to me....

Haven't bothered since 😯 😆

I just hope Banjo can keep on running Rampage

He's ready for next season already, with luck, i'll be sticking a toe in too as i'll be a bit more prepared 🙂

Which is, in part, a function of population density. There just aren't many people up there. Whenever the national series has gone to Scotland the numbers are down. When it doesn't, the Scots moan that it doesn't go to Scotland. There's a point where geography is just to blame in part.

For sure - its a long way to travel which doesn't help at all. All the more reason why it better be a damn good experience when you get there.
But there should in theory be ample population to support it - 'local' cricket league as 7 divisions I think, and a hell of a lot more people own MTB's than cricket bats.

I haven't raced XC for quite a few years now, mainly because it came as a bit of a shock turning up to what I though was 'sport' in nationals only to bury myself and come in the bottom half. Why drive half way across the country to get dropped out the back of an XC race after five minutes, when you can get dropped out the back of a road race after five minutes and only have to drive for half an hour?

At the time of doing the nationals, I was points chasing to try and get moved up a category. I and a number of mates were doing fairly well in the MSG races, regularly getting podiums. However I was no where near getting to expert as the most points available were at nationals and I was no where near the front at the few I did. However I also remember quite a few other sport riders moaning on the bikeradar forum about us turning up saying we should race a category higher - we couldn't at the time as BC wouldn't promote us.

It's the same in road racing now - it used to be that you could race crits and after a few top 5/10's you'd be a 3rd cat and had a better pick of races including road races. I can't even get into crits these days as they're booked up months in advance, let alone contest for a win.

I like the technical courses, however having raced a Nat at Dalby I can hand on heart say that the drop there is fairly terrifying on an XC bike when you're at the upper end of your heart rate.

I'm not sure what the answer is but I'd suggest BC need to look at their points system if they're going to attract new riders. Both Road and MTB have become quite elitist to the point where as a new rider you know lining up you stand very little chance of coming anywhere other than last.

Yes, I'm not sure of the rationale of increasing the required points on the road. When I was a 4th cat you only needed 7(?) to move to 3rd, so 4th cat was a genuine introduction. I did a few races, a couple of DNFs, realised what I was doing, got involved in a few sprints, and got my 3rd cat. Job done. Now it's 10(?) there are more and more people staying in 4th, which I don't really understand.

the bloke next to me in car park even had his coach timing his warm up...imagine my surprise when he lined up next to me....

You've raced with Gazhurst as well? 😀 😉

You've raced with Gazhurst as well?

Funnily, i assumed it was YOU !

In which case I must have overexagerated my post racing updates 🙂 I'm very mid pack Reg A Vets.

Just in reply to your watts/KG - focus on the cardio and strength - if you work out it'll come off. It's taken me two years to get to 73kg from 79kg, to 3.5w/KG at the moment.

But I'm also finding a lot of speed ragging my bike around the woods vis a vis I've learned to push MUCH harder on my social rides. I "strava'd" 7th overall locally yesterday, but was feeling rathyer queasy at the end of that section - its what you have to do.

es, I'm not sure of the rationale of increasing the required points on the road. When I was a 4th cat you only needed 7(?) to move to 3rd, so 4th cat was a genuine introduction. I did a few races, a couple of DNFs, realised what I was doing, got involved in a few sprints, and got my 3rd cat. Job done. Now it's 10(?) there are more and more people staying in 4th, which I don't really understand.

Me neither, I think at the time they were worried that the 3rd cat group was getting too big but therefore I'd reduce the number of points required to be second cat rather than going the other way. There was that story of the bloke from Bristol who started the season as 4th cat and ended up an Elite by the end of the season. I'd like to see him do that now!

I think its changed again as well - 12 points for 3rd, 40 points for 2nd!

Earlier this year I did some racing in Germany, where MTB usually means XC, and the popularity of the sport is massive. I'd kind of expected it to be fire road slogs and fit-but-sketchy euro racers. Turned out everyone was really, really quick, uphill and down. The course was harder than any of the UK national series too.
So I don't think that a high standard of competition and techy courses are a barrier to participation tbh. It's almost certainly an image problem.

Kryton57 - Member

In which case I must have overexagerated my post racing updates I'm very mid pack Reg A Vets.

Just in reply to your watts/KG - focus on the cardio and strength - if you work out it'll come off. It's taken me two years to get to 73kg from 79kg, to 3.5w/KG at the moment.

But I'm also finding a lot of speed ragging my bike around the woods vis a vis I've learned to push MUCH harder on my social rides. I "strava'd" 7th overall locally yesterday, but was feeling rathyer queasy at the end of that section - its what you have to do.

The hard part is fatigue on this sort of stuff. For October stats, Strava has me at 21 hours, 450km, 108PR's and 20 activities. Although i think if i recall, 1 of them was warm up. Out of them, 6-7 have been outdoors and of them, 2 have been 40-45km rides.... Either way, it's still a lot for me. According to my calculations, i've had 7 days off riding this month, none have been 2 dayers, all singles..
Today, after the 40km yesterday outdoors mostlty on trails/woods, i'm pretty stiff and achey.... so having today off from riding, however i'm wondering if i should also take tomorrow off too...

Lets not moan about XC racing...lets encourage people to come and give it a go!!!!

Agreed, but to do so we need the media to get behind it. Which it won't. The xc websites like ukxcnews have minimal audience and to be honest are so focussed on the top end are probably intimidating to newcomers, certainly come across as cliquey.

The entry levels for the xc series in Wales were so low this year the future of the series is very much in doubt for next year. In many ways, this might not be a bad thing as going to a few more grass roots events with lower costs and lower technicality may increase interest. Agree with njee increasing technicality is an issue, fast fun singletrack is IMO the key to good racing which is why Gorrick events are so fun.

I used to think we could entice people back from enduro but I think that's not an option. We need to interest novice racers who fancy giving any form of racing a go. A lot of the time the atmosphere around the arena is soulless, if there is a commentator who is doing more than just calling through the leaders and a sound system it makes a massive difference

Edit.

padkinson - Member
It's almost certainly an image problem.

Completely agree, and its largely due to the bike media making fun of wearing Lycra, training, etc. Because they've been told to sell hashtag enduro bikes, in my cynical opinion. On other forums racing xc is seen a short a bit sad it seeems to me

I'm currently weighing up what racing I'm going to do next year after a year building my base fitness back up.

As much as I'd like to race more on the road, its nigh on impossible to get into any races around where I live and I'd struggle to be back from work in time to do a weekday evening series. Therefore it'll either be TT'ing or MTB for me next year (if there's any MTB races left!).

Being honest, its no fun doing races where you know you're not going to place. As much as I rib Kryton for moaning about his training and racing, I totally understand what it's like to train 5/6 days out of 7 only to be destroyed by the majority of the field when you race. Whilst I understand not everyone can win, the level at which you need to be to podium or even get a top 10 is mental these days. Or maybe I'm just old and fat...

[b]Sandbaggers[/b] - This is what I've seen as the no.1 problem for years. I was a very vocal supporter of ditching the Masters category in SXC races, it made the pot-hunters angry, but racing got better and closer in both E/E and Sport as a result.

Series should be more aggressive about kicking people up categories. In Ireland they seem to be good at doing this, with races I've attended there having far bigger E/E fields that their populations would have you assume. Even mid series, with some sort of adjusted ranking for points already gained.

Relying on the BC ranking system to do this is short sighted. It took me five years to get from Expert to Elite, with three of those years finishing 6th in the ranking so not getting moved up. I could handily beat most of the guys above me, but geography meant that it was impractical to go point hunting to get the move up. I eventually just phoned someone at BC and made it happen.

[b]Technical courses[/b] - Yep, agree. I love a technical course, so much so I'm always the first to throw the toys out the pram if it's a roadie fest. Can't go too mad with it though, else you end up with features that the majority can't ride. Often, technical-when-fast is what you want.

At this point most people could/should be running a dropper post. I have one for next year, more about going faster on the descents, than making anything rideable, but there is a tangible benefit for everyone.

[b]Roadies on plastic bikes[/b] - This is a symptom, not a cause IMO. It's a horribly tough sport to do well at, and most people don't live near good mountain biking, and are stuck in a weight-is-everying mindset.

I've not been on a road bike in over two years, I haven't shaved my legs in the same time, and I've raced an alloy bike for four seasons. Despite this, I've got better rather than worse, and enjoyed myself more.

SXC AGM is coming up soon, might be an opportunity for a few on here to put their ideas into action, rather than pointlessly posting them on the internet. Other series are available.

I mean to do more races, but the things that put me off, traveling, i really can't be doing with traveling for more time than i am going to be racing.

And for whatever reason there have been VERY few XC races round where i live since year2000 in the FoD

And secondly, bikes don't pay the bills. So whilst crashing is part of riding a bike, make the course too hard and the risks rise.

As for placing, i am going there to get my arsed kicked results are not really the point.

SXC AGM is coming up soon, might be an opportunity for a few on here to put their ideas into action, rather than pointlessly posting them on the internet. Other series are available.

They asked for feedback after last season via a rider representative and were given the exact same feedback along with a fair range of suggestions via the Trail Scotland forum. They then chose to ignore all feedback and carry on exactly as before.
Unsurprisingly, participation levels have not increased.

the bloke next to me in car park even had his coach timing his warm up...imagine my surprise when he lined up next to me....

You've raced with Gazhurst as well?

Bitchy!!! If you can't beat 'em, join 'em 8)

I think the argument about location has a lot to do with the numbers too. As has already been mentioned, the main population being in the South East of the UK is where we've seen the biggest turn out at races (during the season).

BC did TRY to get around a bit more last season to be fair to them. I live near Heathrow and the closest National race to me last year was Cannock, still a 3hr+ drive.

We do have a long long wat to go until we're anywhere near the rest of Europe when it comes to XC racing though. I went to the Roc d'Ardennes World Cup Marathon in April this year. Yes it had a UCI event included in the festival but the weekend was massively inclusive for everyone. It really was just that...a festival. The whole of Houffalize was closed to traffic, almost every big bike manufacturer was there displaying their kit and there was always something on. It made our National races look like the Rampage Series.

Companies are always going on about the decline in sales etc...would it really cost them too much to sponsor and/or turn up to races of all levels? Surely things like that would attract people along??? For example, I recently read something about Evans Cycles only allowing test rides of 15mins around a car park. Not really good enough to sell a bike in my opinion...but imagine if they turned up at a race event with a selection of demo bikes and allowed people to do a lap on one???

Kind of digressing I know but surely it would encourage participation in the long run??